[kool1]

The 3.0L Duramax inline six offers much more than good fuel economy, most notably impressive smoothness and quietness, ample low-end torque, and excellent overall performance. It exhibits none of the "noisy, clattery, smelly" characteristics associated with light truck diesel engines of yore.

It's disappointing that GM is no longer offering this engine for 2025 Escalade. This outcome is yet another example of GM combining class leading engineering with incompetent marketing.

I agree - 3.0 is a gem of an engine!

 

[09W]

This outcome is yet another example of GM combining class leading engineering with incompetent marketing.

No; it is not. Both are clearly offered/ available / sold... but as with anything - people will gravitate one way or another.
Gas engines have always been more commonly chosen, and Escalade buyers -I would have to imagine- would be far more likely to chose/order 420 HP than 277/295 HP.

What's the ideal goal here : an even 50/50 split between diesel & gas sales?

Is the Escalade ESV "incompetantly marketed" because it doesn't sell more evenly-weighted with the standard wheelbase E?

 

[AWHoden]

The 3.0L Duramax inline six offers much more than good fuel economy, most notably impressive smoothness and quietness, ample low-end torque, and excellent overall performance. It exhibits none of the "noisy, clattery, smelly" characteristics associated with light truck diesel engines of yore.

It's disappointing that GM is no longer offering this engine for 2025 Escalade. This outcome is yet another example of GM combining class leading engineering with incompetent marketing.

Any gearhead will know that today's diesels are NOT like the ones we remember, my point was that despite that fact public perception has stuck for GM diesels. The 80's Oldsmobile diesels ruined the idea of a domestic diesel for a lot of people my age thanks to our parents complaining about it. LOL It could be a reason the diesel didn't sell as well despite the benefits. I like diesels. I do, I really do. LOL

 

[BlackGTP]

Again- the turbo diesel has a dozen generations between the 1980s and now- that 40-yr old perception is not a thing in 2024. 40 yrs ago they usually weren't even turbocharged- my brother had an '82 6.2L diesel (non-turbo) - it was painfully slow (he ripped it out and put a built Pontiac 400 CI in). It's like saying the perception of a ferrari being capable of only a 15 sec 1/4-mile is still a thing ('80s 308).

There's no need to weave elaborate, tenuous 'explainations' as to why a particular option comes & goes,and it's far more likely that Escalade customers ticking thru the order form simply gravitate to '420 HP' rather than '277/295'... and possibly they prefer to not deal with adding DEF 4-5000 miles. After all; no one has seen an Escalade 'rolling coal' to make any such association.

On that; there are loads of diesels in NJ, and I've only seen 'coal rollers' a handful of times, and I myself have been in a TD for 18 years now. It's no different (and less common) that seeing/associating fart can exhausts with 'honda' - it's not keeping consumers from buying hondas.

Diesel thankfully never caught on in the USA as it did in Europe. This isn't a tenuous explanation any more than people refusing to buy GM's because the quality was horrible 30+ years ago. People have long memories and hand them down to their children.

You may not like my words, but reality is on my side - diesel is a very small niche and not many are interested in it.

And when people already have either no opinion or a bad opinion, it just takes one "rolling coal" jerk to reinforce those opinions.

 

[CJH]

There's no need to weave elaborate, tenuous 'explainations' as to why a particular option comes & goes,and it's far more likely that Escalade customers ticking thru the order form simply gravitate to '420 HP' rather than '277/295'... and possibly they prefer to not deal with adding DEF 4-5000 miles. After all; no one has seen an Escalade 'rolling coal' to make any such association.

I think its a great engine - in a Tahoe/Suburban/Silverado, etc... But I think there was a perception problem for a $100k+ vehicle. I don't think people associate a V6T diesel with luxury here. I'd argue it would need to be a V8 "performance" diesel at that price point, whether a Cadillac or one of the Germans, but those are going the way of the Dodo bird. So not surprised its cancelled.

 

[big swede]

The bottom line is the extra costs of diesels (purchase price, oil changes, fuel) don’t offset the mileage improvements so if you don’t need the extra pulling power it’s going to be a no go.

Also a lot of Escalades are driven by women. Let your wife fill up one time using a diesel pump and you’ll immediately be in the doghouse. That diesel smell just doesn’t wash off easily either.

 

[09W]

If you run the numbers (and I have) - diesel MPG overcomes both the option cost & the fuel premium in as little as 4 years. Diesel by me yesterday was 2 cents more than regular, and the Duramax trucks usually get 10 MPG better than gas. There’s literally no downside (maybe -thinking Escalade demographic here) adding DEF a couple times a year. I see plenty folk fill theirs at the fuel station, but I’ve yet to notice it anywhere I’ve fueled yet.

 

[09W]

I don't think people associate a V6T diesel with luxury here.

It’s an inline 6.

But you bring up another likely point WRT Escalade buyers : 6 cylinders vs 8.

 

[AWHoden]

If you run the numbers (and I have) - diesel MPG overcomes both the option cost & the fuel premium in as little as 4 years. Diesel by me yesterday was 2 cents more than regular, and the Duramax trucks usually get 10 MPG better than gas. There’s literally no downside (maybe -thinking Escalade demographic here) adding DEF a couple times a year. I see plenty folk fill theirs at the fuel station, but I’ve yet to notice it anywhere I’ve fueled yet.

Diesel is about a quarter more per gallon here.

 

[09W]

Diesel thankfully never caught on in the USA as it did in Europe. This isn't a tenuous explanation any more than people refusing to buy GM's because the quality was horrible 30+ years ago. People have long memories and hand them down to their children.

You may not like my words, but reality is on my side - diesel is a very small niche and not many are interested in it.

And when people already have either no opinion or a bad opinion, it just takes one "rolling coal" jerk to reinforce those opinions.

• If people had ‘long memories’, hyundai / kia would’ve left the USDM 20 years ago.

• With all due respect; your ‘reality’ is merely your personal opinion.

• Yep; diesels in cars are a very slim percentage, but that’s not at all the case with trucks. Heck, half-tons added diesels not that long ago, including nissan (RIP titan).

• Returning to ‘lasting bad impressions’; how much are civic sales held back / declining due to the recent perception of buzzy, poppy, fart car rice rockets?? I think consumers about to spend their dollar are well able to separate a handful of aftermarket mods / shade tree degradations from a factory-built vehicle.

 

[AWHoden]

• With all due respect; your ‘reality’ is merely your personal opinion.

Same goes for all of us. In our little social bubbles, we see what we see. In my social bubble, no one that I know wants a diesel. In your bubble, they do. That doesn't make either one of us wrong, it doesn't make either one of us right. It just demonstrates that things are different for each of us and comparing a customer-added "fart can" to a car is NOT the same as a diesel installed at a factory. People know Honda's don't come from the factory with a "fart can". Not even close to the same thing.

 

[BlackGTP]

• If people had ‘long memories’, hyundai / kia would’ve left the USDM 20 years ago.

• With all due respect; your ‘reality’ is merely your personal opinion.

• Yep; diesels in cars are a very slim percentage, but that’s not at all the case with trucks. Heck, half-tons added diesels not that long ago, including nissan (RIP titan).

• Returning to ‘lasting bad impressions’; how much are civic sales held back / declining due to the recent perception of buzzy, poppy, fart car rice rockets?? I think consumers about to spend their dollar are well able to separate a handful of aftermarket mods / shade tree degradations from a factory-built vehicle.

Certainly is my opinion, and you have your own opinion as well - but I don't call yours "tenuous" to belittle your argument even though I don't agree with it. No matter what you say or how great diesel is, it is a failure in the American market and has continuously been so for decades (outside of pickups and even there it is overshadowed by gas). There is overall little to no interest in it, and one can't blame GM's Escalade marketing for not being able to turn the tide of almost 50 years of market UN-acceptance.

It isn't impossible to overcome a bad image - Hyundai found a way to do it, however "diesel" hasn't been able to overcome the negative connotations. Even the slick and well-regarded German luxury brands couldn't get consumers to bite. The fart can, annoying Civic's are different, the vehicle already had a well-regarded reputation cemented in long before the annoying modifications came to being, diesel never had a great reputation onside of fringe applications.

Or, put it this way - diesels have been pretty smooth and good mechanically (meaning none of that clattering and smoke of the 80s) for 25+ years and multiple makes have tried to sell them with no real success. So, if they are mechanically "good" then something is holding back the market from accepting them - tell me what is holding the market back if it isn't perception? And awhile back there was marketing from German brands and positive reviews - everything was in place for success, but none followed.

The only other point I will say is diesels make little financial sense in the USA where they cost more to buy AND the fuel costs even more than premium gas so the payback is long, unlike Europe where diesel cost less than gas. No doubt that is going on too, but I don't think that is the entire story. However, like diesel, hybrids cost more money, yet people are lining up to buy them - they have a much better perception.

 

[09W]

It just demonstrates that things are different for each of us and comparing a customer-added "fart can" to a car is NOT the same as a diesel installed at a factory. People know Honda's don't come from the factory with a "fart can". Not even close to the same thing.

And ‘rolling coal’ trucks (example cited here) don’t come from the factory either, but it speaks to your theory of ‘lasting associations’.

In my social bubble, no one that I know wants a diesel. In your bubble, they do.

I’m not speaking RE my personal association, but diesel truck sales. Like I said; 25% take rate in only it’s 2nd year in the Sierra, and for the highest-priced engine option.

Let me couch it slightly different; see if there’s any logic to the statement ( besides the obvious) ~ >’The reason the Corvette went out of production in 2020 was that it could never escape the lasting impression from the ‘70s when it had a mere 165HP.’<

That’s not the way things work in the auto consumer industry by & large, otherwise; who they hell is buying a hyundai?? 🤪

 

[big swede]

If you run the numbers (and I have) - diesel MPG overcomes both the option cost & the fuel premium in as little as 4 years. Diesel by me yesterday was 2 cents more than regular, and the Duramax trucks usually get 10 MPG better than gas. There’s literally no downside (maybe -thinking Escalade demographic here) adding DEF a couple times a year. I see plenty folk fill theirs at the fuel station, but I’ve yet to notice it anywhere I’ve fueled yet.

Maybe where you are but most parts of the country it’s almost .50 a gallon most of the year and during the cold months over $1.00. An oil change if you do it yourself is going to be $80 and it’s highly doubtful an Escalade owner is going to do that so expect more like $150.

Also I doubt that real world driving is getting 10mpg better. Then throw in DEF and the inevitable emissions related problems that seem to plague every diesel engine at some point and I doubt you’re getting anywhere near break even unless you plan on keeping it a very long time.


Missouri Average Gas Price

	Regular	Diesel
Current Avg.	$3.52	$3.96

 

[AWHoden]

And ‘rolling coal’ trucks (example cited here) don’t come from the factory either, but it speaks to your theory of ‘lasting associations’.

I’m not speaking RE my personal association, but diesel truck sales. Like I said; 25% take rate in only it’s 2nd year in the Sierra, and for the highest-priced engine option.

Let me couch it slightly different; see if there’s any logic to the statement ( besides the obvious) ~ >’The reason the Corvette went out of production in 2020 was that it could never escape the lasting impression from the ‘70s when it had a mere 165HP.’<

That’s not the way things work in the auto consumer industry by & large, otherwise; who they hell is buying a hyundai?? 🤪

Diesel sales have dropped over the past 15 years, their market is smaller than the EV market. Why is that?

I honestly don't think people think that about diesels, if that was the case then to own a Camaro you MUST have a mullet? I mean, mullets are associated with Camaros, so.....

Ok. Then please explain to us why people don't buy diesels unless they're in a truck.

 

[BlackGTP]

And ‘rolling coal’ trucks (example cited here) don’t come from the factory either, but it speaks to your theory of ‘lasting associations’.

I’m not speaking RE my personal association, but diesel truck sales. Like I said; 25% take rate in only it’s 2nd year in the Sierra, and for the highest-priced engine option.

Let me couch it slightly different; see if there’s any logic to the statement ( besides the obvious) ~ >’The reason the Corvette went out of production in 2020 was that it could never escape the lasting impression from the ‘70s when it had a mere 165HP.’<

That’s not the way things work in the auto consumer industry by & large, otherwise; who they hell is buying a hyundai?? 🤪

You keep throwing out analogies that don't apply as if I'm saying once something has a shortcoming it's over for whatever it is - that isn't true nor what I'm saying. But it seems to be for diesel. You seem to be trying to give these bad analogies to prove that products can overcome shortcomings - we all know they can. Diesel can't in the USA - they are a failure outside a very specific customer/vehicle type. Nor will diesel ever overcome anything as all the makes are or already have pulled back from it.

I've given you my thoughts as to why diesel doesn't sell. No matter what you tell me you can't get around the fact that diesel doesn't sell, it never has and never will. I am not arguing that it is bad, I recognize that it is smooth and pretty much odor free. But it plain and simple doesn't sell, it's expensive to buy, the fuel is expensive and couple that with lingering doubts about the technology and you have the current state of the diesel market.

And I bet diesel never would've made it out of niche truck related markets if Europe hadn't subsidized it into the mainstream. And all of the damage to all the historical buildings & statues, pollution, health issues, and cheating scandals tells us Europe never should've pushed it so heavily.

 

[09W]

Maybe where you are but most parts of the country it’s almost .50 a gallon most of the year and during the cold months over $1.00.

Also I doubt that real world driving is getting 10mpg better.

When I did my calculations, I priced diesel at 75 cents more than regular.

In my personal real world experience, I’m getting 29-30 (computer, backed up by hand calc), on a truck rated 22/26. Best 400-mile average: 32.3. Same route in the turbo 4 netted only 21. 5.3L is pretty tight to the 4. 6.2L is significantly worse, and running premium.

 

[09W]

At GM - one MONSTER advantage diesel has over gas choices :: no lifters! 😎

 

[Greg Burr]

I remember posts on this site where people wanted cars with manual transmissions and diesel

 

[Greg Burr]

At GM - one MONSTER advantage diesel has over gas choices :: no lifters! 😎

And in some places diesel is cheaper gas