[mgescuro]

Why would you expect the flagship to. Be bland? Is the ATS bland? Is the CTS bland? Is the escalade bland?
The Cadillac concepts have been anything BUT bland, including the Ciel and Elmiraj.

Besides the front? YEs. The rest of the car is bland to me. Including the concepts.
Now, I realize that this is to get the Chinese to buy the cars, but you can make the car more compelling that that plus the retro 70's rear quarters.

And yes, ATS looks great for a car on the road in 2006. CTS is much better, but I still find the rear and sides bland.

 

[70eldo]

I have a bad feeling about the sales numbers the CTS is going to put up. The higher prices are going to put off a lot of returning customers. That said, higher prices are absolutely necessary to play with the luxury big boys. This is going to be a transition period for Cadillac.

It will be well covered by the ATS, which wasn't there before. The prior CTS's have been in-between cars sizewise anyway.

I am very excited about to see the CTS in person. I would love to test drive it, but I am almost sure I will go ATS and hope to see a wagon when my lease is due.

 

[SavoieRF]

I typically agree with points that MG makes but I'm not so sure anymore. Certainly we all realize that Cadillac has had a struggle in straddling the 3 Series priced car with 5 Series space as you can't make either group happy. So now we have the proper cars, the new ATS and the new CTS and I still feel like there is absolutely no love from MG at all. There are holes in the Cadillac lineup, yes. There have been misguided talks from GM and even more promises followed by letdowns. Yet, I still feel as if Cadillac will never be up to his standard. FYI... I agree about the pricing of the new CTS. It's going to take awhile for people to accept the new pricing strategy but there is no doubt the car is a class leading vehicle.

As far as Jaguar goes aren't they having a struggle in the US? From what I read sales of the XJ are down and there are many who aren't accepting of the new styling theme. XF is borderline boring these days. XK needed a refresh years ago. F-Type is excellent but why buy it over a Porsche? That's where the real racing story is anyways; not to mention they have been building real sports cars for years. Jag's interiors are OK but I still think Audi leads in interior design and materials.

Cadillac has been bracketing MG with the ATS and the new CTS leaving him less and less wiggle room as the so called "GMI Cadillac Curmudgeon". It will get even worse for his Cadillac critic career here at GMI with every new Cadillac model. He will eventually have to get with the program or just stand there in the corner Cadillac has painted him into.

 

[Dr.Show-Me]

I typically agree with points that MG makes but I'm not so sure anymore. Certainly we all realize that Cadillac has had a struggle in straddling the 3 Series priced car with 5 Series space as you can't make either group happy. So now we have the proper cars, the new ATS and the new CTS and I still feel like there is absolutely no love from MG at all. There are holes in the Cadillac lineup, yes. There have been misguided talks from GM and even more promises followed by letdowns. Yet, I still feel as if Cadillac will never be up to his standard. FYI... I agree about the pricing of the new CTS. It's going to take awhile for people to accept the new pricing strategy but there is no doubt the car is a class leading vehicle.
As far as Jaguar goes aren't they having a struggle in the US? From what I read sales of the XJ are down and there are many who aren't accepting of the new styling theme. XF is borderline boring these days. XK needed a refresh years ago. F-Type is excellent but why buy it over a Porsche? That's where the real racing story is anyways; not to mention they have been building real sports cars for years. Jag's interiors are OK but I still think Audi leads in interior design and materials.

MG has been a Cadillac hater for so long you shouldn't expect him to change is opinions. He loves Jaguar, MB, likes BMW and hates on Cadillac.
So much so that I suspect MG may be a reason why GMI is excluded from Cadillac new car introductions. Nsap, is this true?
Even when Cadillac produces an excellent car, such as CTS-V, he criticizes it ( too much power!)
So don't expect him to ever give Cadillac and Mark Reuss any credit

 

[SavoieRF]

MG has been a Cadillac hater for so long you shouldn't expect him to change is opinions. He loves Jaguar, MB, likes BMW and hates on Cadillac.
So much so that I suspect MG may be a reason why GMI is excluded from Cadillac new car introductions. Nsap, is this true?
Even when Cadillac produces an excellent car, such as CTS-V, he criticizes it ( too much power!)
So don't expect him to ever give Cadillac and Mark Reuss any credit

Hmmm.... remember the Patton Cadillac Photo Fiasco? I bet Cadillac does.

 

[Envoy4Life]

You guys really think that GM excludes us from certain Cadillac events because of ONE POSTER?!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

C'mon guys, grow up. He may not like the brand, but I never heard him say that the ATS and CTS weren't good, world class luxury sedans. All I've read is him saying Cadillac still doesn't quite have the "name" MB and BMW have (and he's right!!), and endless fawning for Jaguar. THAT needs to stop.

EDIT: And oh yeah, his calling of the ATS a circa 2006 design. That one gets me every time!

 

[SavoieRF]

You guys really think that GM excludes us from certain Cadillac events because of ONE POSTER?!

:lmao::lmao::lmao::

C'mon guys, grow up. He may not like the brand, but I never heard him say that the ATS
and CTS weren't good, world class luxury sedans. All I've read is him saying Cadillac still doesn't quite have the "name" MB and BMW have (and he's right!!), and endless fawning for Jaguar. THAT needs to stop.

EDIT: And oh yeah, his calling of the ATS a circa 2006 design. That one gets me every time!

I have no idea if MG's antics have any influence on how GM sees GMI. I do know that he has no interest in purchasing a Cadillac and the better Cadillac gets the more out of reality his anti-Cadillac comments get. He is, by definition, a troll. A troll, I might add, who is coddled by by some here.

 

[ryannel2003]

I wouldn't say he is a troll as he has made some excellent points about how GM should handle Cadillac moving forward. What I have noticed about him is how image is a huge part of his life it seems. It's all about name brands and letting people know he can afford and has it. What it comes down to I believe is if he did in fact purchase a Cadillac that those he surrounds himself with would be shocked and would possibly even "look down" on him because Cadillac isn't a "true" luxury brand in the sense whereas Mercedes is. This comes off in his posts which leads me to believe image is everything and Cadillac isn't an image brand in his mind and never will be (which to an extent I agree). What I did find very funny is how he commented on the bland side view of the CTS when I see nothing but E-Class there!

I'm not that self-involved so for me I don't really care about how people view me or what those outside my family and friends think about me. I drive a Cadillac because I enjoy the cars they build and the rich history associated with it and even the history that isn't so great. The fact that GM can make the CTS such a no excuses, full fledged competitor makes me think they are done with the excuses. Still work to be done but it seems like they are finally doing it right.

 

[MyImpalaSS]

No, I've analyzed the market and I know outside of these forums few associate Buick with Cadillac. Even if I tell non-enthusiast people that Buick and Cadillac share a parent and some engines they still find it hard to believe. Get out of Cali more, and you might see the truth. That microcosm of taste does not dictate the choices of the entire country.

To take on your last remark, No maker can guarantee that people want to buy any product. I would to also remind you that BMW and Benz are not immune to this question either. Each sell more entry levels than damn near the entire rest of their line-up combined. Meaning the 1,3 and X3 sell damn near 50% of the entire BMW line, and those are not all M3s either. Cadillac has sold quite a few XTSs, Escalades, SRXs, and even DTS before that exceeded $50K. I see no reason why a supposedly better vehicle won't be able to achieve the desired sales numbers.





Huh? Enclave and LaX sales have been phenomenal, and hitting higher ATP prices than anticipated. Let's not forget the conquest rate that these two vehicle have brought in. The Regal.. OK, I'll give you that (in this market) but it is selling pretty close to it's immediate competitor from Acura.




That was out of no where. And sounds to the point, but also a bit ostentatious in order to make it seem as though... oh never mind. I see its what is expected from some here.






No offense, but you obviously have no problem insulting us who have paid sums greater than even you have on a run of the mill German taxi-cab, but what you said is laughable and pompous to say. I have to wonder if it is a California thing? A Mercedes owner thing? A 37K post thing?

If it is a Cali thing, I will remind you that California is not the indicator of all things Luxury, last I checked the richest states by income were all on the RIGHT COAST. Cadillac sells well there. People respect the brand still. Perhaps there or here or wherever outside of California, Cadillac lost it's cachet on the day it decided to regain it.






In the current form of a Epsilon based vehicle they may be correct, but I hope the name remains as it is ridiculous to build such an excellent vehicle up along with the name only to kill it after the killing of the DTS, and the STS





based on the Captiva and Caprice strategy it would not be without a precedent



The advertising is not stupid at all. Have you taken a look around lately to see other E-Class drivers? I repeat verbatim:
Cadillac has a true E-Class competitor with the XTS and a true 5series competitor with the CTS. I really don't think that the 5series actually competes with the E-class, because quite frankly the E-Class is for older, aka traditional drivers, as is the XTS. Cadillac has bases covered and could possibly lose sales killing the XTS for to totally rely on the CTS, a performance luxury sedan by all measure I can imagine.

TheGrifter, I like you. Are you Germeezy reborn?

 

[TheGrifter]

TheGrifter, I like you. Are you Germeezy reborn?

No. Not on his best day despite my respect for his posts of yore.

I watched this forum for years and even was a member here years ago when posters like Ming were prominent. I forgot my password and called it a day. But the level of GM hate here spawned me to sign up again

 

[MyImpalaSS]

No. Not on his best day despite my respect for his posts of yore.

I watched this forum for years and even was a member here years ago when posters like Ming were prominent. I forgot my password and called it a day. But the level of GM hate here spawned me to sign up again

Ok well welcome back!!!!

 

[zl-1]

It will be well covered by the ATS, which wasn't there before. The prior CTS's have been in-between cars sizewise anyway.

I am very excited about to see the CTS in person. I would love to test drive it, but I am almost sure I will go ATS and hope to see a wagon when my lease is due.

Are you going to or have been to the Frankfurt Show? Euro-spec CTS should be shown there for the 1st time, no?

 

[schmallz]

Isn't the new C class Mercedes growing in size to approximately be the same size as the previous generation CTS?

Wasn't it stated by a few here that the second gen CTS was the wrong size? Now the C class is imitating that.

The new CTS is so good it will gain market share beyond expectations by various members here especially since the German players are discounting heavily with their recently remodeled competitors...

Their lease rates are being subsidized so Cadillac has its work cut out for it since it just raised its prices..

Its not rocket science..

The CTS V also had 400hp before most of it's competition(RS 4 was a mutant back then)

The STS was the wrong size too, but now the E, 5 A6 and CTS are all as big as the STS. A STS V with the S/C/ Northstar stacks up pretty evenly against BMW's 550i Turbo 4.4, Mercedes's E550 4.6 Turbo and Audi's S6 4.0 Turbo.

The question, now is, was Cadillac behind or ahead?

 

[schmallz]

No. Not on his best day despite my respect for his posts of yore.

I watched this forum for years and even was a member here years ago when posters like Ming were prominent. I forgot my password and called it a day. But the level of GM hate here spawned me to sign up again

If you build it, they will come!

 

[mgescuro]

Cadillac has been bracketing MG with the ATS and the new CTS leaving him less and less wiggle room as the so called "GMI Cadillac Curmudgeon". It will get even worse for his Cadillac critic career here at GMI with every new Cadillac model. He will eventually have to get with the program or just stand there in the corner Cadillac has painted him into.

THe problem with Cadillac is the marketing and the prestige factor. None of which Cadillac has.
People who believe Cadillac retains some sort of prestige factor are fooling themselves. That is earned. Cadillac lost all of it over the course of 40 years.

ATS is a good car, but the sales numbers are decidedly flat.
CTS seems to be a good car on paper, but because it's in a price tier traditional Cadillac owners are not used to seeing, and is no longer a "value priced" car, I believe CTS will suffer a major drop in sales, a miracle conquest sales number not withstanding.

I'm not interested in sedans anymore. I got mine after waiting 4 years for Cadillac to get with the program. Now I'm eyeing a compact CUV -- something Cadillac doesn't even have on the roadmap. SRX is far too large for me.

 

[mgescuro]

EDIT: And oh yeah, his calling of the ATS a circa 2006 design. That one gets me every time!

You know full well the GMI Cadillac insider verified my statement, right??? That design was frozen before the bankruptcy, and there wasn't much Cadillac could do with it once it was restarted.

The design is "old." CTS is the "wave of the future." but I still hate the rear.

 

[mgescuro]

I wouldn't say he is a troll as he has made some excellent points about how GM should handle Cadillac moving forward. What I have noticed about him is how image is a huge part of his life it seems. It's all about name brands and letting people know he can afford and has it. What it comes down to I believe is if he did in fact purchase a Cadillac that those he surrounds himself with would be shocked and would possibly even "look down" on him because Cadillac isn't a "true" luxury brand in the sense whereas Mercedes is. This comes off in his posts which leads me to believe image is everything and Cadillac isn't an image brand in his mind and never will be (which to an extent I agree). What I did find very funny is how he commented on the bland side view of the CTS when I see nothing but E-Class there!

Oh I've admitted exactly that for years. And no one believes me.
Brand... high quality craftsmanship... style... prestige... image are all very high on the list for me. Buy a Cadillac is "frowned" upon in my circles, unless it's got a "V" at the end of it. And even then you'd still have to justify why you didn't get an M or AMG or RS. Why? Because, aside from horsepower, the V really didn't have anything that stood toe-to-toe with the German performance cars. And even with a higher HP number, AMG still kept up with the V, and in some numbers outperformed it.

Cadillac has no prestige. There isn't a positive or upscale image about it. And the tech, until recently, is decidedly no techie enough.

I'm not that self-involved so for me I don't really care about how people view me or what those outside my family and friends think about me. I drive a Cadillac because I enjoy the cars they build and the rich history associated with it and even the history that isn't so great. The fact that GM can make the CTS such a no excuses, full fledged competitor makes me think they are done with the excuses. Still work to be done but it seems like they are finally doing it right.

Your'e not frustrated that Cadillac has abandoned its rich history and gone onto a new track?
CTS is the car that should have been the STS in 2007.

Remember, Cadillac is now trying to sell what was once the entry level car as a mid-sized decidedly non-entry level car. There's no "history" or "branding" for the CTS that is appropriate in that class. Cadillac, in essence, has to REINVENT the CTS. There will be some repercussions to this. It's a product positioning disaster. THe new base price of the CTS is nearly $10K more than the previous year. That's going to hurt a lot of people who bought the car because it was a "value proposition."


I don't want a Cadillac because it simply doesn't convey the image that "I've arrived." Driving a Cadillac doesn't convey success anymore. It conveys "compromise." And what still gets me is that Cadillac's marketing is so completely inept at defining the brand. Every other month, it seems, Cadillac tries something new. And it doesn't always work.

 

[ryannel2003]

Oh I've admitted exactly that for years. And no one believes me.
Brand... high quality craftsmanship... style... prestige... image are all very high on the list for me. Buy a Cadillac is "frowned" upon in my circles, unless it's got a "V" at the end of it. And even then you'd still have to justify why you didn't get an M or AMG or RS. Why? Because, aside from horsepower, the V really didn't have anything that stood toe-to-toe with the German performance cars. And even with a higher HP number, AMG still kept up with the V, and in some numbers outperformed it.

Cadillac has no prestige. There isn't a positive or upscale image about it. And the tech, until recently, is decidedly no techie enough.




Your'e not frustrated that Cadillac has abandoned its rich history and gone onto a new track?
CTS is the car that should have been the STS in 2007.

Remember, Cadillac is now trying to sell what was once the entry level car as a mid-sized decidedly non-entry level car. There's no "history" or "branding" for the CTS that is appropriate in that class. Cadillac, in essence, has to REINVENT the CTS. There will be some repercussions to this. It's a product positioning disaster. THe new base price of the CTS is nearly $10K more than the previous year. That's going to hurt a lot of people who bought the car because it was a "value proposition."


I don't want a Cadillac because it simply doesn't convey the image that "I've arrived." Driving a Cadillac doesn't convey success anymore. It conveys "compromise." And what still gets me is that Cadillac's marketing is so completely inept at defining the brand. Every other month, it seems, Cadillac tries something new. And it doesn't always work.

Fair answer. As far as Cadillac abandoning it's prestige I agree with you on certain points. I think where Cadillac is screwing up is once place where you and I have always agreed which is the CTS name was originally an entry level car and now suddenly it's a midsize car with the price to go along with it. Car should have been called STS. Period. The last STS wasn't a great car, but the 4th and 5th Gen cars were Cadillac's first attempts at building a "sporty" car and they always sold extremely well.

For me personally I would never buy a car based on the image it portrays simply because I don't care if my car projects that or not. I already owned an "image" car and had plenty of compliments on it as well. Sure my Deville doesn't really have an image other than walkers and death but I enjoy the car for what it is. That is where you and I differ but that's what makes the world go round. I think the CTS is a fabulous car. I mean absolutely fabulous. But you and I have always agreed the car has the wrong named attached to it.

Cadillac does have prestige IMO. It's just not what it used to be. It's also way, way behind BMW, Mercedes, Audi and even Lexus. I would rate it above Infiniti, Lincoln, Buick, Acura, and Volvo. The sad part is that it should be much closer to Mercedes and personally if I were Cadillac that is the company I would be going after. BMW already has the niche carved out in the sporty sector of the market and though the new Cadillac's are actually sportier cars how many people are actually abandoning their Bimmer's for Caddy's? Very, very few. Mercedes does the best job of balancing ride and handling and that's what I would focus on.

 

[sfbreh]

Cadillac has been bracketing MG with the ATS and the new CTS leaving him less and less wiggle room as the so called "GMI Cadillac Curmudgeon". It will get even worse for his Cadillac critic career here at GMI with every new Cadillac model. He will eventually have to get with the program or just stand there in the corner Cadillac has painted him into.

He has valid points most people here are too stubborn in their love for Cadillac to see or agree with.

Now I'm eyeing a compact CUV -- something Cadillac doesn't even have on the roadmap. SRX is far too large for me.

They actually do.

 

[TheGrifter]

THe problem with Cadillac is the marketing and the prestige factor. None of which Cadillac has.
People who believe Cadillac retains some sort of prestige factor are fooling themselves. That is earned. Cadillac lost all of it over the course of 40 years.

No. This is not true. While I will agree that Cadillac lost some prestige, it did not do so until around 1986, with the downsizing of all Cadillacs across the board with the exception of the Fleetwood. That was less that 28 years ago, and they have been upward moving since their "reboot" in 2003 following the intro of the CTS and Gen2 Escalade.

I find it ironic that you defend Jaguar with just fervor, yet constantly denounce Cadillac. Jaguar is quite possibly further away from the recovery that Cadillac, with Cadillac getting more of a push from GM than Jag is from Tata. I know you will instantly fall back on the 500hp XJL Ultimate, but who exactly is buying this car when they could get a superior S600, B7, or Bentley?

ATS is a good car, but the sales numbers are decidedly flat.

Fact #1: ATS is a new car to this segment
Fact #2: ATS has competed with a discounted Gen2 CTS for it's entire existence
Fact #3: ATS sells in one trim, while the segment leaders from BMW and Benz both have variants. The 3series currently has a Sedan.. which the ATS matches, a COUPE, a Convertible, and the M3. Along with that it has the Hybrid and Diesel offerings. With 4 Times as many variants, why wouldn't it's sales be at least 3 Times higher? It's logical..

CTS seems to be a good car on paper, but because it's in a price tier traditional Cadillac owners are not used to seeing, and is no longer a "value priced" car, I believe CTS will suffer a major drop in sales, a miracle conquest sales number not withstanding.

I predict the same, especially since Cadillac now has the aforementioned ATS which it didn't have during the entire 10 years of the CTS's existence.

You know full well the GMI Cadillac insider verified my statement, right??? That design was frozen before the bankruptcy, and there wasn't much Cadillac could do with it once it was restarted.

The design is "old." CTS is the "wave of the future." but I still hate the rear.

The ATS is stunning. It's an entry Sport Lux that looks tons better than the bore it primarily competes. If the ATS is indicative of design from 2006, then the 3series is circa 1996.