[SavoieRF]

To me Cadillac doesn't symbolized an "I'm better then you because I drive a Cadillac" essence about it. At least not in the 34 years that I've been on this earth. If someone made their first million, won the lottery, or whatever have you, the first thing they don't do is run out and buy a Cadillac. Unless they're a rapper or something. To me, owning a Mercedes or BMW means you have "arrived" finally and are an ultimate success. Cadillac's are good cars, no doubt but if I was in the market to buy a luxury vehicle they wouldn't even be in consideration. I don't know what Cadillac is but it doesn't come to mind when I think of TRUE luxury. I guess the mindset I have is what they are working so hard to try and change, but it's going to take awhile.

Spoken by a Toyota Camry owner... As a multiple Cadillac owner I would have to say that your perception of Cadillac's credibility and standing in the public's imagination does not match my real world experiences. I'm going with what I know...

 

[mgescuro]

To me Cadillac doesn't symbolized an "I'm better then you because I drive a Cadillac" essence about it. At least not in the 34 years that I've been on this earth. If someone made their first million, won the lottery, or whatever have you, the first thing they don't do is run out and buy a Cadillac. Unless they're a rapper or something. To me, owning a Mercedes or BMW means you have "arrived" finally and are an ultimate success. Cadillac's are good cars, no doubt but if I was in the market to buy a luxury vehicle they wouldn't even be in consideration. I don't know what Cadillac is but it doesn't come to mind when I think of TRUE luxury. I guess the mindset I have is what they are working so hard to try and change, but it's going to take awhile.

But that is EXACTLY what they USED to do back when the Cadillac name mattered!
It always signified to the buyer and the spectator that "I've arrived."

You pull up in any of the big German flagships, and that's what it signifies today.


You cannot say that Cadillac is there today. They need at least 10 years to even gain some modest recognition in the luxury buyer market. And they cannot ever get there without the Omega flagship. CTS is just not good enough.
That's like the Mercedes line stopping at E-Class... and there wasn't an S, CL, CLS, SLS, SL, G, GL above it.

 

[megeebee]

That's like the Mercedes line stopping at E-Class... and there wasn't an S, CL, CLS, SLS, SL, G, GL above it.

You forgot the R.

 

[mgescuro]

OK Mgescuro. I get what you are saying, but it only confirms one thing. You are really Jeremy Clarkson in real life, or at least a wanna be. You seem to love everything European based on your posts. I guessing you were either born in the UK or wish your were. And that's fine, and your idea of luxury is your own.

I was born in San Francisco to Philippine immigrants of modest means, who worked their asses off to put me through the best schools money could buy in San Francisco. My family's worth, starting from virtually nothing, being in the US for over 45 years, is into the 8-digits.

Do I know luxury? I wasn't born into it. We had Cadillacs in the 1980's. We were a GM family from 60's onward. The last GM car my family bought was the 2005 Pontiac G6. It was mine. And it was junk. The reputation of GM has significantly declined here. And we've had excellent reliability with Mercedes, Jaguar, and Saab.

I do not believe I can get the same level of reliability from Cadillac that I can get from Mercedes. That being said, that's not the deciding factor for me. I want the prestige and image that comes with driving the Mercedes. That being said, if anyone in my family had bought a Mercedes during the 1998-2007 disastrous years, we'd probably have abandoned them for something else.

To me I see that every day Cadillac continues to move forward. While I would not put Cadillac on the same level as Mercedes and BMW, due to not having the Elmiraj/Ciel type vehicle as of yet, they are easily as highly regarded as Audi or Jag by most people buying in the luxury segment. In fact, I would go so far as to say that many of those same buyers might actually see Audi as a "German Value" brand as well. Jaguar on the other hand is just a once great name that still has an aura of Ford around it's edges. I'm sorry. The FType does not redeem it in the least to me, as I see nothing, outside of the interior and some engine upgrades, that is superior to a Saturn Sky. Let's be frank, if GM decided to give the Sky to Cadillac with a few tweaks in styling, for the sake of the brand, on Alpha, less weight due to size, with the ATS's 2.0L Turbo, I think the F-Type would be thumped pretty hard

2 very very very different cars -- Sky and F-Type. Kappa platform couldn't have worked for Cadillac. THe interiors and technology were so low grade. They were built to be basic roadsters not luxury roadsters. SLK and Z4 would have mopped the floor with the Cadillac Kappa. Alpha would work; however, the spreadsheet jockeys would get their nose into it and couldn't justify the existence of it with ATS Coupe coming. Furthermore, that car wouldn't compete with F-Type. It would compete with SLK and Z4. F-Type competes with Cayman and 911.

Audi is in no way a "value brand." Its prestige factor outstrips Mercedes and BMW in some areas of the world. Audi is not seen in this light in the US due to the 5000 debacle. Audi's taken the better part of a decade to wipe the slate clean of that mess. It isn't perfect either here mainly due to the quality issues from 1999-2007 or so. Audi still has climbing to do in the US. That being said, Audi's customer demographic is both more intelligent and wealthier than Mercedes or BMW... and younger.

I rank luxury in this order currently:

1) Rolls Royce
2) Bentley
3) Mercedes Benz
4) Porsche
5) BMW
6) Audi/Cadillac/Jaguar-Land Rover
7) Lexus
8) Infiniti/Buick/Acura/Lincoln/Volvo

I'd lump Cadillac below Lexus. But you have 1-3 right. I'd put Audi/Porsche on par with BMW. JLR below that. And then Lexus and the rest where they stand.

I rank Cadillac above Lexus even without the full-fledged flagship because the Cadillac XTS, although not considered by enthusiast as a "great car" because its based on a FWD platform. With the the Twin Turbo.. Cadillac technically has moved it up to an real competitor for the LS460. It has the cachet, power, and certainly better looks both inside and out. The XTS also handles better than the LS despite it's FWD based platform.

Cadillac doesn't have the reputation, quality, or product lineup of Lexus. And Lexus has an exclusive super car. And a true flagship. Lexus isn't up to the Germans. But it's certainly higher than Cadillac. Cadillac has no car that prices in the $100,000. And we're debating whether or not it can manage to sell a car at $65,000. That's NOT a luxury brand.

I expect a top end Omega Platinum Edition to have a base price between $115-125,000. That is my expectation.
THAT is cachet. THAT is presence that you can never get with an XTS.

You denounce Cadillac as losing its cachet, but it cannot lose it's heritage (something that the newer brands like Lexus doesn't have).It has maintained the idea of Cadillac being a luxury marque if for no other reason than they stuck around and provide some remnant of luxury, and price indicative of the segment. If Packard came back, who outside of the enthusiast circles would remember their Deluxe 8? Cadillac faltered in the late 80s, early 90s, more so than any time else, but the name, although tarnished, never fell from the Luxury car buyer's mind. I agree with what you said in regards to time. But I'd add that it just so happened that at the same time Cadillac decided to foul up, 3 other Luxury brands from Japan entered the segment, Mercedes got it's act together, BMW went from Sports sedans to Luxury and Audi, beginning with the intro of A4, began to repair it's reputation which was almost dead after their 80's fiasco. They made it back from hell, Cadillac is really not far behind. I'd say 2-3 years behind at best.

Cadillac is a very very very very small fish in a very very very very big pond.
Cadillac can get there. ATS and CTS show this. But they're merely a beginning.

IMHO, Cadillac needs 4 things in its lineup before we can start talking about it coming back. 1) Flagship sedan ($80-150,000), 2) Flagship coupe ($85-170,000), 3) Supercar ($175-250,000), 4) Escalade Platinum Edition ($150,000.)

You get me those 4.... each with comparable quality to its German/British equivalents, and Cadillac can build all the ATS variants and even FWD compact sport hatches it wants... and Cadillac will have acceptance in the luxury community again. If Cadillac cannot find a way to build those 4 products (Escalade is probably the easiest), then Cadillac cannot challenge the 3 Germans or JLR. It is not possible.

You know why it won't happen? GM's spreadsheet jockeys are going to nickel and dime them to death. And their "analysts" will nitpick the market to death. And Cadillac marketing remains unconvincing to me.

You think Escalade can price at $150,000? I think it can. A large, sophisticated luxury truck, full of amenities and technology? But if I were a betting man, I'd probably just drop in CUE and Cadillac-like vents into a Denali and call it a day. You cannot build a truck to challenge Range Rover Ultimate and have it looking like a Denali.

Cadillac has problems. Real problems. ATS and CTS are good starts. But they're just that. Good starts. Cadillac needs more higher end cars. And it needs to build its reputation back. Thats the part that seems stalled.

 

[TheGrifter]

OK so you are an American who comes from a humble family that worked it's way up the socioeconomic ladder and now have a net worth in the 10s of millions, admirable, but you say everything you can to belittle a company that quite frankly is responsible for the way and means that enabled your family to reach plateau. In sickened and unimpressed. I won't go thru my financial resume as to the reasons why.

As for the brand. I don't agree. I really believe that a great deal of your ideas about Cadillac are centered in the fact that you live in a state where foreign makes are the goto brands for many of it's inhabitants. Ironically you guys love to cry and wonder why the economy is in turmoil.

The brand is recovering I agree, and it is doing so at a rapid pace. I have not seen any thing outside of rumors (door handles) that bean-counters are causing issue with the recovery. The points you make about the Escalade are ridiculous. The RR's advantage is irrelevant for 99% of the buyers of these vehicles and the absolute reason why Cadillac should squash that advantage is to shut people like yourself up who look for every reason they can to **** on the name. From what I've seen of the upcoming Denali, the RR night just have it's hands full already, let alone the Escalade.

Lexus? More cachet? Like I said... Get out of Cali more often. Even with a larger line-up, the LS (yesteryear's Buick) and the laughable, pathetic excuse for a Super-Car, the LFA, I STILL don't see it. Really guy, you should never again bring that thing up again. It's performance is on par at best with a C6 GS and my mainstream CTSV coupe is as exotic looking.

 

[RobertJ]

Says the guy who defends and believes the Corolla to be God's gift to automotive.

I drive my VCoupe and I feel like I'm on top of the car world. The constant admiration given when I'm driving it confirms my feeling. I am not a rapper or sports star, and people who think that only those people own them are idiotic and envious of the attention

When did I ever claim the Corolla to be anything of the sort? I just said it was not as bad of a car as everyone thinks and its sales numbers back up that claim. I also said the 2014 made some nice changes and it would continue to sell VERY well against the competition. I'm sorry that it makes you mad that the Corolla continues to be very successful despite the Cruze finally being a car that GM can hang their hat on in this market, yet doesn't dominate it yet. I know you are a huge GM fanboy, but I refuse to be a fanboy of ANY brand not just GM. I hope you also saw where I said I'd never own a Carolla OR a Cruze if I was in the market for such a car. It would be a Honda Civic for me if I had to chose. I'm glad you enjoy your V-sport. It's a very good car but it's not "up there" in the luxury world as of now. It's just the way it is, give GM 10 years and I they continue the trend they are on now, you'll see GM become a household name when it comes to luxury.

Spoken by a Toyota Camry owner... As a multiple Cadillac owner I would have to say that your perception of Cadillac's credibility and standing in the public's imagination does not match my real world experiences. I'm going with what I know...

And as a person whos family owns Audi's Lexus' and Mercedes I am going by that I know and observe. My town is about 200,000 people, we have two Cadillac dealerships near me (even though they are being sold next to Malibu's and Cruze's on the same lot). The nearest BMW, MB, Lexus or Audi dealership is 45 mins away at the least. Know what brands I see the most out of those? It's not Cadillac, I can assure you that. For every one Cadillac you see around here you'll see double to triple the amount of MB, BMW, Lexus and Audi's. Why do you believe the two nearest Cadillac dealerships can't sell cars, but dealerships 45-hour's drive away have an abundance of cars around my town? The German's and Lexus DOMINATE around here. It's very telling. In fact I went to dinner tonight with my girlfriend and made sure to look specifically to see how many Cadillac's I saw versus German or Lexus vehicles. I stopped counting after seeing 10 straight German brands and 4 Lexus' and having yet to see a Cadillac.

I find it funny how you pointed out how I was a Camry owner but failed to mentioned I'm also a current and former GM owner.lol

 

[SavoieRF]

When did I ever claim the Corolla to be anything of the sort? I just said it was not as bad of a car as everyone thinks and its sales numbers back up that claim. I also said the 2014 made some nice changes and it would continue to sell VERY well against the competition. I'm sorry that it makes you mad that the Corolla continues to be very successful despite the Cruze finally being a car that GM can hang their hat on in this market, yet doesn't dominate it yet. I know you are a huge GM fanboy, but I refuse to be a fanboy of ANY brand not just GM. I hope you also saw where I said I'd never own a Carolla OR a Cruze if I was in the market for such a car. It would be a Honda Civic for me if I had to chose. I'm glad you enjoy your V-sport. It's a very good car but it's not "up there" in the luxury world as of now. It's just the way it is, give GM 10 years and I they continue the trend they are on now, you'll see GM become a household name when it comes to luxury.


And as a person whos family owns Audi's Lexus' and Mercedes I am going by that I know and observe. My town is about 200,000 people, we have two Cadillac dealerships near me (even though they are being sold next to Malibu's and Cruze's on the same lot). The nearest BMW, MB, Lexus or Audi dealership is 45 mins away at the least. Know what brands I see the most out of those? It's not Cadillac, I can assure you that. For every one Cadillac you see around here you'll see double to triple the amount of MB, BMW, Lexus and Audi's. Why do you believe the two nearest Cadillac dealerships can't sell cars, but dealerships 45-hour's drive away have an abundance of cars around my town? The German's and Lexus DOMINATE around here. It's very telling. In fact I went to dinner tonight with my girlfriend and made sure to look specifically to see how many Cadillac's I saw versus German or Lexus vehicles. I stopped counting after seeing 10 straight German brands and 4 Lexus' and having yet to see a Cadillac.

I find it funny how you pointed out how I was a Camry owner but failed to mentioned I'm also a current and former GM owner.lol

So you know someone who owns a Mercedes and Lexus so that qualifies you as an expert on luxury automobiles. You don't see many Cadillacs in your neighborhood so that means that Cadillacs are scarce everywhere. Of course you owned a GM car in the past so that means you know all about GM. Right... Sorry, I have no problem with people expressing their opinion but I have no problem calling it out when people speak out of their lane of first hand experience.

As for me being a Cadillac "fan boy" that has some elements of truth. However, If you read my posts, you would know that I can be critical of Cadillac when appropriate. When I do, I speak as a Cadillac owner who wants the brand to excel.

 

[RobertJ]

Says the guy who defends and believes the Corolla to be God's gift to automotive.

I drive my VCoupe and I feel like I'm on top of the car world. The constant admiration given when I'm driving it confirms my feeling. I am not a rapper or sports star, and people who think that only those people own them are idiotic and envious of the attention

Spoken by a Toyota Camry owner... As a multiple Cadillac owner I would have to say that your perception of Cadillac's credibility and standing in the public's imagination does not match my real world experiences. I'm going with what I know...

So you know someone who owns a Mercedes and Lexus so that qualifies you as an expert on luxury automobiles. You don't see many Cadillacs in your neighborhood so that means that Cadillacs are scarce everywhere. Of course you owned a GM car in the past so that means you know all about GM. Right... Sorry, I have no problem with people expressing their opinion but I have no problem calling it out when people speak out of their lane of first hand experience.

As for me being a Cadillac "fan boy" that has some elements of truth. However, If you read my posts, you would know that I can be critical of Cadillac when appropriate. When I do, I speak as a Cadillac owner who wants the brand to excel.

I don't recall ever claiming to be an expert. Can you show me the post as to where I made such a claim? Also, where did I claim Cadillac had poor sales and were scarce everywhere? I stated they were scarce HERE even with two local dealerships. That is a fact that I see, not an assumption. One doesn't have to own a Cadillac to see that and make that claim. I can be critical of ALL automotive companies but I also praise them when necessary too. I'll probably never own a Cadillac but that doesn't mean I can't make claims about them as long as they aren't untrue or off the wall. Probably never own any luxury car simply because I don't have a need for one. If I was going to spend $50,000+ on something it would be a John Deere tractor most likely.

 

[redTT]

Spoken by a Toyota Camry owner... As a multiple Cadillac owner I would have to say that your perception of Cadillac's credibility and standing in the public's imagination does not match my real world experiences. I'm going with what I know...

I know that non americans would associate (affordable) luxury as BMW, Mercs, Jag, and even Lexus. NOT CADILLACS. I have no idea why GM spends so much money and time trying to change this perception. Most people outside America only know Cadillacs as rattly, old, rusted, American heaps of junk (no offence intended). GM should just create a totally new luxury nameplate.

 

[mgescuro]

OK so you are an American who comes from a humble family that worked it's way up the socioeconomic ladder and now have a net worth in the 10s of millions, admirable, but you say everything you can to belittle a company that quite frankly is responsible for the way and means that enabled your family to reach plateau. In sickened and unimpressed. I won't go thru my financial resume as to the reasons why.

Tough. You need to understand the depth at which Cadillac has fallen.
Without that understanding and the constant excuses being made up for Cadillac, they will never recover to the heights they were at.
Cadillac is NOT worth anyone's time or money. Not at the caliber of luxury the Europeans play at.

GM is not reponsible in anyway for my family's success. AT&T, Allianz, and Bechtel are. GM has done nothing but maintain a fat cat attitude for 3+ decades, which resulted in the most embarrassing downfall of an American corporation in the history of the US.
From a business standpoint, coming from someone with an MBA, GM is a joke. Its management was a joke. It's current management is still trapped in cultural deficiencies that will ultimately hinder its comeback.

GM deserves no respect from any true American. GM needs to earn it back.

As for the brand. I don't agree. I really believe that a great deal of your ideas about Cadillac are centered in the fact that you live in a state where foreign makes are the goto brands for many of it's inhabitants. Ironically you guys love to cry and wonder why the economy is in turmoil.

The irony is, California sets the tone for the rest of the automotive world. GM itself realizes this fact. If Cadillac cannot make an impact in CA, then you might as well give up. California is ahead of the curve, and no amount of pride in Cadillac and GM cars will make up for the fact that GM cars are inconsequential in California, unless it's a work truck.

GM could pull out of California, and 40 million people (13% of the US population) wouldn't care -- except those people with lives tied to rental car companies.
The sad part of it is, I'm not joking.

The brand is recovering I agree, and it is doing so at a rapid pace. I have not seen any thing outside of rumors (door handles) that bean-counters are causing issue with the recovery. The points you make about the Escalade are ridiculous. The RR's advantage is irrelevant for 99% of the buyers of these vehicles and the absolute reason why Cadillac should squash that advantage is to shut people like yourself up who look for every reason they can to **** on the name. From what I've seen of the upcoming Denali, the RR night just have it's hands full already, let alone the Escalade.

Range Rover is an all aluminum platform and body. Escalade will not match this.
Escalade does not have the cachet to attract Range Rover buyers, nor do Escalade buyers have the wealth of Range Rover buyers. Hell, previous demo studies put Denali buyers at a higher income bracket than Escalade!!!

Escalade needs to much more than a Denali in Art & Science disguise.

Lexus? More cachet? Like I said... Get out of Cali more often. Even with a larger line-up, the LS (yesteryear's Buick) and the laughable, pathetic excuse for a Super-Car, the LFA, I STILL don't see it. Really guy, you should never again bring that thing up again. It's performance is on par at best with a C6 GS and my mainstream CTSV coupe is as exotic looking.

Lexus has a reputation for quality and service. Lexus sponsors high profile events.
Lexus has higher sales in the US and globally.
Lexus sells cars in the >$100,000 range. In fact, they sell up to the $400,000 range.

Performance will never equal "luxury" or "prestige." NEVER. ZR-1 will outperform nearly all Ferraris and Lamborghinis and Porsches, with few exceptions. But no one would ever consider the ZR-1 prestigious over those 3 brands.
ZR-1 is a value proposition created by GM for people who want exoticar performance on the cheap.


You are trying to rationalize something that cannot be rationalized.

 

[sfbreh]

GM deserves no respect from any true American. GM needs to earn it back.

/thread

Nobody who complains about most GM bashing understand that it's not against GM, but GM's deficiencies today and over time which they have yet to fully overcome.

When GM deserves to be considered the best, it will be. I don't think anyone here maliciously wants GM to fail at anything.

You are trying to rationalize something that cannot be rationalized.

Ding ding ding, another thing some people can't grasp.

 

[64Spyder]

I'm not comfortable with Caddy jumping the price of the CTS up so much in one year. No doubt, the new CTS is an improved car over its predecessor, but since many buyers in this segment did not see that earlier car as the equivalent of an E class or 5 series, they may initially balk at so much more money for the new model. I recall that when Lexus first came onto the scene at the end of the 80's they initially held the price of the LS down for a couple of years until buyers accepted the car as a high quality luxury marque, then prices took off. I would have liked to see Cadillac adopt a similar strategy. As others have noted, Cadillac blew up much of its quality/luxury image over the last decades of the past century and even if the CTS is a home run, they won't get that image back overnight, especially if they are adding "sport" to the equation too. Guess we will see.

 

[jry]

How about a 2t like the two that i followed this morning on the 23 North?

 

[roy219]

GM has done nothing but maintain a fat cat attitude for 3+ decades, which resulted in the most embarrassing downfall of an American corporation in the history of the US.
From a business standpoint, coming from someone with an MBA, GM is a joke. Its management was a joke. It's current management is still trapped in cultural deficiencies that will ultimately hinder its comeback.

GM deserves no respect from any true American. GM needs to earn it back.

Thank you, mgescuro! You have summed up GM's (and Cadillac's) current state perfectly. :clap:

I think that GM is making progress toward earning the respect of American consumers. It has a long journey ahead.

 

[mgescuro]

Thank you, mgescuro! You have summed up GM's (and Cadillac's) current state perfectly. :clap:

I think that GM is making progress toward earning the respect of American consumers. It has a long journey ahead.

GM's definitely making progress. But they can't rest on their laurels because there's still way too much work to be done. And there are new competitors in the market... new regions to sell cars... and new segments opening up.
It'll take a lot of time.