[guionM]

My 2 cents about the CTS.

First, I think the front is awesome. It's unique, and it stand out while looking great and making a statement. The rest of the exterior, though, doesn't measure up. In fact, I find the XTS to have more interesting sides and rear design. I do give CTS kudos on it's interior. But if you look at the car from any view that doesn't include the front or inside, the car looks pretty underwhelming.

To those who think that the price jump is going to put people off, you're way off base. People looking at price versus value buy Chevrolets, Fords, Toyotas, Mazdas, and the like. If you are price shopping $50,000 cars, then you probably are either buying your first luxury car, or you're buying outside of your class.... you should go back to a Chevy or Toyota that you can actually afford.

Fact is that once you get over the $40-45K mark, you are buying a NAME or a SPECIAL VEHICLE, not a price. At that level, if you're a Chrysler fan, you're buying an SRT because it's special. Ditto Shelbys and ZL1s. You're walking into a showroom specifically to buy a Corvette, or a Viper. You aren't going around comparing prices with a Porsche, Benz, or a McLauren... you KNOW what you want already.

So the question ISN'T a matter of price, the question becomes "Does this vehicle warrant the price???"...or..."Does this car measure up to whatever image I want to convey??" If the car has the image, the quality, and you're willing to pay for it, you don't give a rat's hoot as to what it costs. Disagree? See Cadillac Escalade, which goes for up to and over $70,000 and has no shortage of people willing to pay that amount because the styling and image have that amount of value.... even though it's nothing more than a $45K Tahoe or Suburban with a few pieces of interior wood and a fancier grill. Luxury is not about value. If that were the case, then Lincoln wouldn't have one foot in the grave.

And,that becomes the CTS' challenge. It's no doubt assembled tightly. It no doubt has great materials. It has all the right mechanical parts, and they all work together as well as anyone else in the luxury market. The final decxision on success or failure isn't focused on the price jump. It's focused on if enough people thing the car has "juice". Is it compelling? Is it very desirable? Am I goning to want one instead of a BMW 5 series or some other competitor? And even if I don't, are there enough others to make the car a success. Price ISN'T an issue... DESIRABILITY is..... and that's what the new CTS has to demonstrate to be successful.

The ATS is on the low end of the scale, and has the bigger problem. Although it's priced cheaper than a BMW 3 series, in monthly payments that difference is between $25 and $50 per month in car payments. That means even in that instance, the value equasion disappears, and it becomes nothing more than a desirability contest. BMW still has the name equity, and most will simply choose the Bimmer just because of the blue and white propeller logo on the leading edge of the center hood.... Cadillac's challenge is to make their logo more desirable, or at least more desirable than the BMW logo to enough potential buyers that Cadillac will make a dent, get some word of mouth going, and grow a few more converts till it reaches that point where the Cadillac crest means more in the minds of people than the Blue and white propeller.

 

[SavoieRF]

Nobody is going to have an image problem driving a 2014 CTS, even in San Francisco, sorry mgescuro.

 

[Mr. Burns]

Nobody is going to have an image problem driving a 2014 CTS, even in San Francisco, sorry mgescuro.

No more an image problem than driving a Jag anyway.

 

[Dr.Show-Me]

Cadillac walked away from its luxury large car heritage decades ago, and I believe that it will be Harder to regain its image than it would be to start a new luxury brand, which would be difficult indeed.
Omega needs to be over-the-top great and successful to help the smaller Cadillacs' image issues, and that will take several years at a minimum. Until then, Cadillac will struggle with getting 5/E prices or image for their smaller entries, and I think its a mistake to push them. Too high too fast, as that will result in slow. Sales. And a "failure" label they might not shake for a generation.

 

[mr_raider]

No more an image problem than driving a Jag anyway.

On the contrary. When driving a Jag, it's expected that you cut off pedestrians, cheat on your spouse, and crush little kittens. Such behaviour is looked down upon in Cadillac owner circles

 

[mgescuro]

Why not buy a Buick? I think Buicks should be one price tier below a comparable Cadillac. Regals should run the gamut on ATS pricing.

What exactly is a Buick? What does it stand for in America?
Aside from Enclave and Lacrosse, it's Opel. That in and of itself doesn't identify a brand.


I have no problem with a high end Regal toeing the line with ATS. In fact, the GS does. But these 2 don't compete at any level except price.
Reconstituting the Gen 2 CTS as a Buick will fill the gap between ATS and Gen 3 CTS. In effect, that would allow a degree of cannibalization. That makes no sense.

 

[mgescuro]

What you just said about Cadillac in a negative light can be said about Jaguar as well, just opposite. To me Jaguar is a joke, luxury, sport, racing or otherwise. Panel gaps that I could stick my arm thru. Interiors that are on the level of Buick. Off the shelf engines from Ford.

Come back to me when Cadillac is successfully selling out of its $180,000 full sized sedan. Oh wait... Cadillac doesn't sell one? Oh darn.

The only Cadillac that competes with Jaguar is the CTS. Cadillac has nothing else.

And if you think Jaguar Interior levels are on Buick's level, then I suggest you visit your local LensCrafters. Even the newest Cadillacs barely touch Jaguar.

 

[mgescuro]

Nobody is going to have an image problem driving a 2014 CTS, even in San Francisco, sorry mgescuro.

Cadillac suffers from an image problem. It takes decades to reverse nearly 40 years of poor luxury cars coming from Cadillac.

Image conscious locales such as the west coast and northeast should be key markets for Cadillac. But CTS is unproven. And for people who want to make an image impact, a CTS just isn't going to be there.

No matter how good the 3rd gen CTS is, the fact of the matter remains... for the last 10 years, CTS was an ENTRY LEVEL CAR. 10 years of history as an ENTRY LEVEL CAR. For someone making $200,000 and change.... you think s/he is going to spent $65,000 on a car that used to be ENTRY LEVEL? Spend the $65,000 on an E-Class or 5-series or XF.


Gen 3 CTS is no longer a "value proposition" luxury car. I have severe reservations about CTS being able to make conquest sales.

 

[mgescuro]

Cadillac walked away from its luxury large car heritage decades ago, and I believe that it will be Harder to regain its image than it would be to start a new luxury brand, which would be difficult indeed.
Omega needs to be over-the-top great and successful to help the smaller Cadillacs' image issues, and that will take several years at a minimum. Until then, Cadillac will struggle with getting 5/E prices or image for their smaller entries, and I think its a mistake to push them. Too high too fast, as that will result in slow. Sales. And a "failure" label they might not shake for a generation.

Omega needs to not be bland and has to be a dynamic design.
I don't believe Cadillac's full sized concepts do that.

Cadillac needs to prove to the market (and itself) that it can sell the CTS at $46-65,000 -- and ultimately up to $80,000.

If people don't buy at this level (and CTS is priced perfectly right there), then questions will be raised about the plausibility of Omega sales at the $75-115,000 range.

That's why Cadillac needed Omega first before ATS.

 

[TheGrifter]

Come back to me when Cadillac is successfully selling out of its $180,000 full sized sedan. Oh wait... Cadillac doesn't sell one? Oh darn.

The only Cadillac that competes with Jaguar is the CTS. Cadillac has nothing else.

And if you think Jaguar Interior levels are on Buick's level, then I suggest you visit your local LensCrafters. Even the newest Cadillacs barely touch Jaguar.

No need for LensCrafters I went Lasik and I see 20/20. I think for some reason you are smitten with Jaguar when they don't deserve it, not one bit Jaguar languished on the vine for quite a while. In my opinion and many more, it is for low hanging fruit buyers.

I will agree to some extent that cadillac and Jaguar exclusively compete with the CTS and XF. Of course both brands are in the middle of replacing or adding new vehicles to their lineups so I don't see that as a negative positive or anywhere in between until they both have lineups that are fully functional.

Jaguar has three vehicles that Cadillac does not with the F type, XJ and XK.

Cadillac has four vehicles that Jaguar does not have with the ATS, ELR, Escalade, and SRX.

Quite frankly I am not too sure that the ex ts does not actually compete somewhat with the XJ on a certain level as I have a couple of colleagues who have actually traded in there Jaguar XJS for an XTS, commenting consistently on how much more satisfied they are with the level of comfort and luxury in the Cadillac over the Jaguar

Hate at will

 

[sfbreh]

What exactly is a Buick? What does it stand for in America?
Aside from Enclave and Lacrosse, it's Opel. That in and of itself doesn't identify a brand.

Comfort? Unpretentious luxury?

Too bad most Americans don't know Opel, so I don't think your analysis of Buick holds water. I even know Opel, and I don't look at Buick or its lineup and say "oh, well they're just mostly Opels."

There is a space between Cadillac and Chevrolet. A space neither Chevrolet nor Cadillac can fill separately or together. That's the space Buick occupies. It's not true luxury and it's not a full volume brand. It's a mass-market luxury brand, and that's what people see it as. It has room to grow.

Reconstituting the Gen 2 CTS as a Buick will fill the gap between ATS and Gen 3 CTS. In effect, that would allow a degree of cannibalization. That makes no sense.

I still don't understand that concept. The next Regal should be and kind of is where the G2 CTS came into the market at.

Come back to me when Cadillac is successfully selling out of its $180,000 full sized sedan. Oh wait... Cadillac doesn't sell one? Oh darn.

The only Cadillac that competes with Jaguar is the CTS. Cadillac has nothing else.

And if you think Jaguar Interior levels are on Buick's level, then I suggest you visit your local LensCrafters. Even the newest Cadillacs barely touch Jaguar.

All true, except the last part. Jaguar interiors aren't that great. You're blinded by the brand.

No matter how good the 3rd gen CTS is, the fact of the matter remains... for the last 10 years, CTS was an ENTRY LEVEL CAR. 10 years of history as an ENTRY LEVEL CAR. For someone making $200,000 and change.... you think s/he is going to spent $65,000 on a car that used to be ENTRY LEVEL? Spend the $65,000 on an E-Class or 5-series or XF.

I think you're overestimating the attention people pay to the CTS and its positioning. I think for most people it's been a cheaper car that they never bothered to look at. It once being entry level is a moot point. Plus, why would they care about entry level or not?

My mom's boss makes >>>>$200,000. He drove a 7, it got destroyed in an accident and he got rid of it. Drove an E, didn't like it and got rid of it. He drives a 335xi now. So?

I think for some reason you are smitten with Jaguar when they don't deserve it, not one bit Jaguar languished on the vine for quite a while. In my opinion and many more, it is for low hanging fruit buyers.

Jaguar is a nothing brand. Not even on my radar. Wake me up when they make a sexy car. F-type is getting there. Pretty, but... It's just the newest kid on the block. I'd never consider it over any Porsche, which is who they're going after anyway.

Quite frankly I am not too sure that the ex ts does not actually compete somewhat with the XJ on a certain level as I have a couple of colleagues who have actually traded in there Jaguar XJS for an XTS, commenting consistently on how much more satisfied they are with the level of comfort and luxury in the Cadillac over the Jaguar

I call so many levels of bull**** on this.

Hate at will

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto.../2013/08/28/haters_are_gonna_hate_dispositional_attitude_study_confirms_it.html

 

[TheGrifter]

I call so many levels of bull**** on this.

The only bull**** part is that I mistakenly typed an "S" after XJ as I wasn't speaking of the old "Cool" models from Jaguar before.

Outside of that, yes, I have several colleagues who have traded in Jag XJs, Lexus LSs, Benz S Classes, and obviously Cadillac STS, CTS, and DTS. Some were moving up, some were moving down. The XTS is a very attractive car for many, including professionals and retirees who owned S-classes but were fed up with various aspects of ownership pertaining to owning that car. The pain in the ass of having to go to the dealership for various things to do with reliability gets old. After the warranty is up it also gets rather expensive just getting parts for a German luxury vehicle. No matter your paycheck, portfolio, or family name; throwing good money down the toilet is not cool.

Some people are literally waiting on the gate for Cadillac to put out a Ciel or Elmiraj type vehicle.

 

[mgescuro]

No need for LensCrafters I went Lasik and I see 20/20. I think for some reason you are smitten with Jaguar when they don't deserve it, not one bit Jaguar languished on the vine for quite a while. In my opinion and many more, it is for low hanging fruit buyers.

I will agree to some extent that cadillac and Jaguar exclusively compete with the CTS and XF. Of course both brands are in the middle of replacing or adding new vehicles to their lineups so I don't see that as a negative positive or anywhere in between until they both have lineups that are fully functional.

Jaguar has three vehicles that Cadillac does not with the F type, XJ and XK.

Cadillac has four vehicles that Jaguar does not have with the ATS, ELR, Escalade, and SRX.

Quite frankly I am not too sure that the ex ts does not actually compete somewhat with the XJ on a certain level as I have a couple of colleagues who have actually traded in there Jaguar XJS for an XTS, commenting consistently on how much more satisfied they are with the level of comfort and luxury in the Cadillac over the Jaguar

Hate at will

Jaguar languished on the vine for about 10-12 years or so. That was Ford's fault, especially after investing in decent product in the 1990's, they took this weird retro theme way too far. And Jaguar languished.

Jaguar only competes with CTS. That's it.

Jaguar doesn't need to compete with Escalade because that's just dumb. SRX competitor concept is out. ATS competitor was delayed in favor of the CUV for some weird reason. THe only thing left is ELR, which reallly is a niche of a niche anyways and should prove negligible.

So really, only 2 cars.

But in reality, Jaguar sells no car under $50,000. Cadillac relies on sales of cars < $50,000 to survive. Cadillac has no car selling >$100,000. ALL Jaguars extend into the $100,000 range in some form or another. That says something about "luxury" and "prestige" right there.

The Jaguar brand -- a small brand of 4 models -- can support all 4 models at >$100,000.

And we're debating whether or not Cadillac can actually support cars at $60,000.

 

[mgescuro]

There is a space between Cadillac and Chevrolet. A space neither Chevrolet nor Cadillac can fill separately or together. That's the space Buick occupies. It's not true luxury and it's not a full volume brand. It's a mass-market luxury brand, and that's what people see it as. It has room to grow.

There's a space between Toyota and Lexus. You don't see anything in the middle.

All true, except the last part. Jaguar interiors aren't that great. You're blinded by the brand.

Umm.. we are looking at the same interiors, right? There are some cheapie bits, but overall, it's more than "good."

I think you're overestimating the attention people pay to the CTS and its positioning. I think for most people it's been a cheaper car that they never bothered to look at. It once being entry level is a moot point. Plus, why would they care about entry level or not?

My mom's boss makes >>>>$200,000. He drove a 7, it got destroyed in an accident and he got rid of it. Drove an E, didn't like it and got rid of it. He drives a 335xi now. So?

I would love to be wrong, but Cadillac's customer base is gonna balk at the $50,000 CTS.
And other buyers are gonna balk at that price as well because why take it over a better known Mercedes/BMW/Audi? What makes the CTS "better?"
There is no marketing to support this. At least not yet.

Jaguar is a nothing brand. Not even on my radar. Wake me up when they make a sexy car. F-type is getting there. Pretty, but... It's just the newest kid on the block. I'd never consider it over any Porsche, which is who they're going after anyway.

I think you should look into LensCrafters as well.
If you know Jaguar history, Porsche went after Jaguar. Jaguar fell off the map, and now they're reigniting that competition.
Jaguar is new.

But to be able to sell its cars at its prices? There's more recognition for the brand than you're willing to admit.

 

[TheGrifter]

How are Cadillac's buyers gonna balk at the price when they are very often paying more than $46K for the CTS already. Furthermore quite a few SRX and ATS are selling in the $50K price range. The Escalade sells for well over that price.

As a Cadillac buyer who has paid much more than your supposed scare price for several Cadillacs over the last 8 years, I call you on your claim.

 

[Dr.Show-Me]

Omega needs to not be bland and has to be a dynamic design.
I don't believe Cadillac's full sized concepts do that.
Cadillac needs to prove to the market (and itself) that it can sell the CTS at $46-65,000 -- and ultimately up to $80,000.
If people don't buy at this level (and CTS is priced perfectly right there), then questions will be raised about the plausibility of Omega sales at the $75-115,000 range. That's why Cadillac needed Omega first before ATS.

Why would you expect the flagship to. Be bland? Is the ATS bland? Is the CTS bland? Is the escalade bland?
The Cadillac concepts have been anything BUT bland, including the Ciel and Elmiraj.

 

[JBsZ06]

Isn't the new C class Mercedes growing in size to approximately be the same size as the previous generation CTS?

Wasn't it stated by a few here that the second gen CTS was the wrong size? Now the C class is imitating that.

The new CTS is so good it will gain market share beyond expectations by various members here especially since the German players are discounting heavily with their recently remodeled competitors...

Their lease rates are being subsidized so Cadillac has its work cut out for it since it just raised its prices..

Its not rocket science..

 

[Dr.Show-Me]

Isn't the new C class Mercedes growing in size to approximately be the same size as the previous generation CTS?
Wasn't it stated by a few here that the second gen CTS was the wrong size? Now the C class is imitating that.
The new CTS is so good it will gain market share beyond expectations by various members here especially since the German players are discounting heavily with their recently remodeled competitors...
Their lease rates are being subsidized so Cadillac has its work cut out for it since it just raised its prices..
Its not rocket science..

The CTS should have worked. As a larger class sport sedan, but all we heard was that it was the wrong size, when the real answer is that it wasn't a MB or BMW.
Re-sizing the CTS to the ATS and new CTS remedies the alleged. Size problem, but its still not a German car, so still "wrong."
If GM had asked. Me,I would have made the ATS larger, but slightly smaller than the old CTS. I would have made the new CTS with a 117" wheelbase and a 15 cubic for trunk, while naming it STS. And then the large size would be a 120"wheelbase el dorado and a 125" super sedan called XTS or Fleetwood. But they didn't ask me.......

 

[ryannel2003]

I typically agree with points that MG makes but I'm not so sure anymore. Certainly we all realize that Cadillac has had a struggle in straddling the 3 Series priced car with 5 Series space as you can't make either group happy. So now we have the proper cars, the new ATS and the new CTS and I still feel like there is absolutely no love from MG at all. There are holes in the Cadillac lineup, yes. There have been misguided talks from GM and even more promises followed by letdowns. Yet, I still feel as if Cadillac will never be up to his standard. FYI... I agree about the pricing of the new CTS. It's going to take awhile for people to accept the new pricing strategy but there is no doubt the car is a class leading vehicle.

As far as Jaguar goes aren't they having a struggle in the US? From what I read sales of the XJ are down and there are many who aren't accepting of the new styling theme. XF is borderline boring these days. XK needed a refresh years ago. F-Type is excellent but why buy it over a Porsche? That's where the real racing story is anyways; not to mention they have been building real sports cars for years. Jag's interiors are OK but I still think Audi leads in interior design and materials.

 

[sfbreh]

The only bull**** part is that I mistakenly typed an "S" after XJ as I wasn't speaking of the old "Cool" models from Jaguar before.

Outside of that, yes, I have several colleagues who have traded in Jag XJs, Lexus LSs, Benz S Classes, and obviously Cadillac STS, CTS, and DTS. Some were moving up, some were moving down. The XTS is a very attractive car for many, including professionals and retirees who owned S-classes but were fed up with various aspects of ownership pertaining to owning that car. The pain in the ass of having to go to the dealership for various things to do with reliability gets old. After the warranty is up it also gets rather expensive just getting parts for a German luxury vehicle. No matter your paycheck, portfolio, or family name; throwing good money down the toilet is not cool.

Well. That and the rest of the anecdote.

Some people are literally waiting on the gate for Cadillac to put out a Ciel or Elmiraj type vehicle.

True, and they're not jumping in XTSs in the meantime.

There's a space between Toyota and Lexus. You don't see anything in the middle.

Except really not.

Umm.. we are looking at the same interiors, right? There are some cheapie bits, but overall, it's more than "good."

We are. They're alright.

I would love to be wrong, but Cadillac's customer base is gonna balk at the $50,000 CTS.
And other buyers are gonna balk at that price as well because why take it over a better known Mercedes/BMW/Audi? What makes the CTS "better?"
There is no marketing to support this. At least not yet.

No arguing, that's why I think it'll have a high conquest rate.

I think you should look into LensCrafters as well.
If you know Jaguar history, Porsche went after Jaguar. Jaguar fell off the map, and now they're reigniting that competition.
Jaguar is new.

But to be able to sell its cars at its prices? There's more recognition for the brand than you're willing to admit.

No thanks homie. The brand is widely recognized by a few, and they sell all of the $100k+ that they make in limited production. Big deal.

How are Cadillac's buyers gonna balk at the price when they are very often paying more than $46K for the CTS already. Furthermore quite a few SRX and ATS are selling in the $50K price range. The Escalade sells for well over that price.

As a Cadillac buyer who has paid much more than your supposed scare price for several Cadillacs over the last 8 years, I call you on your claim.

Interesting concept you should look up: ATP