[Sal Collaziano]

I don't see any evidence of the ability though.

There was a time, many decades ago, when Roll-Royce and Bentley would have considered Cadillac their main competitor in North America.

They simply went two different routes. Cadillac went for mainstream customers while Bentley and Rolls Royce went for extremely high-end clientele. As for GMs "ability" to build such a car - I don't believe they're there yet. A "Cadillac" Bentley or Rolls Royce would come off the same way as a Hyundai Equus does in the premium fullsize sedan segment...

 

[mchicha]

I don't see any evidence of the ability though.

There was a time, many decades ago, when Roll-Royce and Bentley would have considered Cadillac their main competitor in North America.

They simply went two different routes. Cadillac went for mainstream customers while Bentley and Rolls Royce went for extremely high-end clientele. As for GMs "ability" to build such a car - I don't believe they're there yet. A "Cadillac" Bentley or Rolls Royce would come off the same way as a Hyundai Equus does in the premium fullsize sedan segment...

Even if they took a Bentley and put a Cadillac badge on it, the price would have to drop, obviously.
I was speaking of sheer technical ability. GM can out engineer anyone. They just love engineering to a cost, you can tell when their products are not engineered to a cost, they are excellent. For example the ATS/CTS Chassis, that is staggering.

 

[Ruperts Trooper]

GM can out engineer anyone. They just love engineering to a cost, you can tell when their products are not engineered to a cost, they are excellent. For example the ATS/CTS Chassis, that is staggering.

In North America - or globally ?

 

[MisterMe]

Cadillac use to compete in this segment in the 1920s and 1930s.....

Says who?

 

[MonaroSS]

Says who?

hemmings.com


"Today's high-end automotive marketers think they know their customers, but they really don't. One week they're after old money, and the next they're courting rap stars. Back in 1930, Cadillac knew exactly who its customer was for its V-16-powered colossus. There were only 400 people--all men, all titans of industry, all household names--who had the financial wherewithal to purchase one. Nevertheless, Cadillac managed to sell more than 1,000 of the cars in the days when the merely wealthy were throwing themselves off the nearest rooftop. "

http://www.hemmings.com/hcc/stories/2007/12/01/hmn_feature24.html

 

[AMERICA 123]

About 480 to 500 hours of labor on average ( in Crewe ) go into the making of a Bentley Muslanne.

Let that sink in for in a minute.

( Keep in mind due to how they divide things up, it is a bit hard to compare that number in detail to many others mentioned here. )

Pressing on, about half of that is spent on the interior assembly / interior part work.

Again difficult to compare due to the nature of their part / subassembly / assembly division but one can say with certainty - that's a really big effort.


The choices they offer...... are rather hard to take in and appreciate at first.

No matter your background or where you are coming from.

And then..... you can go all out on your own as well.


****


If you ever get over to Crewe for whatever reason....... even just to tour, at the very least, make sure you hit the 'Woodshop'....... and after that, get a peek or two towards the 'Leather Room'.


Although it must necessarily pale in comparison, going to just the on line Bentley Muslanne 'Visualiser' is also in it's own way, an eye opening experience or at least it can be.


*****


Meanwhile..... not to go off topic uselessly....... consider that V8 say around half size..... for Cadillac.

And do add in the 1000 to 1500 rpm of 'missing' 'operating' rpm.

Plus say two and half full points of the 'missing' compression ratio.

Now..... take the radical improvements easily available to a clean sheet approach - and add them in.

Oh dear....

Is it just me ?


I feel a Greek Tragedy coming on.....

 

[MisterMe]

hemmings.com


...

Not quite. The V-16 engine is a very thin reed on which to suspend an assertion that Cadillac competed with the likes of Rolls Royce and Bentley in the 1920s or any other era. The English super luxury vehicle manufacturers developed their markets in the 1910s long before those big engines were developed. They maintained their market long after V-12s and V-16s for mainstream sedan motivation receded into the past. The 1910 Rolls Royce's reputation was best represented by the story that you could stand a dime on edge on the radiator and that it would not tip over while the engine was running. Every Rolls Royce and Bentley was handcrafted and custom-built to order. That is simply not true of Cadillac.

 

[AMERICA 123]

Agreed.

Also.... pretty surprising are the actual vehicle histories of many of the V16s.

And really, the variability in build meaning equipment and features - or better said,interior trim and the like..

Cadillac's upper tier bespoke efforts in these two time periods while certainly interesting were not the top of the game - almost always.

The list in front is quite large and starts with a bunch of Packards. And then.... more Packards and then..... did I mention Packard ?

Not all that successful either especially in terms of profitability.

This is what almost got them dropped in what '30 /'32 ? and then again just in front of the original 'cheap' Series 60.


And while we're at it, lets remember Standard of the World was used for Cadillac in front of GM's existence and GM's Cadillac ownership.

 

[SierraGS]

Gotta' love it; at least somebody somewhere really shows what a classic 'ohv' V8 can really do.....

Wonder if it still has that 4500 rpm redline........

Agree.

If GM made a 6.75L Twin Turbo V8 it would deliver more power.

Best part is it proves Cadillac does not need a DOHC V8 to "be competitive", just needs to tune it's OHV V8 to luxury standards.

 

[AMERICA 123]

Yep - basically.

Keep in mind that even 811 pd feet is more than 99.9 % of the world's class 1 and class 2 and even a bunch of class 3 transmissions can handle assuming max effort on their very best.

Obviously, that is a very special ZF 8HP90 at work..... probably one of the two most special in use as we speak, which is kinda' no surprise in a special way.


Anyway,

And this smaller V8 idea is exactly in part, why Cadillac cars are stumbling - because of the lack there of.

 

[Jesda]

The designers are truly at a loss for what to do with those headlamps.

 

[Ruperts Trooper]

Agree.

If GM made a 6.75L Twin Turbo V8 it would deliver more power.

Best part is it proves Cadillac does not need a DOHC V8 to "be competitive", just needs to tune it's OHV V8 to luxury standards.

Cadillac doesn't currently get even close to competing in the luxury sector where Bentley is - Cadillac is trying to compete in the premium sector where a DOHC V8 is normal.

 

[CivoLee]

Cadillac doesn't currently get even close to competing in the luxury sector where Bentley is - Cadillac is trying to compete in the premium sector where a DOHC V8 is normal.

NOBODY is in the the same sector as Rolls Royce or Bentley. Mercedes Benz tried in the early-mid 2000s with Maybach and failed miserably. There is a particular clientele that pursues these vehicles with any sort of serious interest and they will not accept substitutes or pretenders to what they see as the throne.

 

[escaladelover]

NOBODY is in the the same sector as Rolls Royce or Bentley. Mercedes Benz tried in the early-mid 2000s with Maybach and failed miserably. There is a particular clientele that pursues these vehicles with any sort of serious interest and they will not accept substitutes or pretenders to what they see as the throne.

and maybach is making a comeback.

 

[Ruperts Trooper]

and maybach is making a comeback.

It's Pullman that Mercedes-Benz are re-introducing.

 

[CivoLee]

Seriously? :doh:

 

[JoeBryant]

Wait a second. I thought this was the new Mulsanne:

 

[autoplaybook]

I would say that the only American marque that approached the Rolls Royce was Deusenburg.

Packard and Pierce-Arrow were definitely in line with Bentley (always downmarket from Rolls, as they are today).

Until the early 1940's, Packard was considered America's foremost luxury car company. Cadillac was seen as decidedly second-tier, regardless of their foray into V16s during the Great Depression. That changed once an independent Packard became dependent on their 6cyl 110s and 8cyl 120s for survival in the late 1930s, to the exclusion of their V12 models, which died after 1939.

Cadillac needs to prove that they can produce an S-Class competitor before they even think about a Flying Spur, Ghost, Mulsanne, or Phantom competitor.

 

[bmwboy2007]

Mulsanne is gorgeous and the ride is unparalleled. If you look up 'stately elegance' in the dictionary you'll find an 8 x 10 glossy photo of the Bentley.

The designers are truly at a loss for what to do with those headlamps.

Well yeah, there's that.. LOL

 

[Ruperts Trooper]

Bentley (always downmarket from Rolls, as they are today).

No - after 1931 they were badge-engineered twins - following the VAG/BMW carve-up it's Bentley that retains the traditional heritage from Crewe - the current Rolls-Royces carries over nothing.