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not 100% true for the same "size" the TALL SUV has MORE interior room and a SMALLER "footprint" and that is GOOD for parking in cities
In Sydney and Melbourne in particular there has been a huge uptick in public transport use and a removal of on street parking. People in the big cities are actually getting rid of their cars because it serves them no purpose any more.

The tall SUV doesn't have more interior room as they are higher off the ground and shorter they tend to not have any leg room at all. In fact I literally do not fit in some of them because they are that small especially Audi / VW family vehicles. I have no issues parking my wagon and yet watching some people in these SUV's park is just laughable even with all of their camera's and electronic assistance.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
An upright SUV body is much more efficient space wise. A VF wagon is longer than a 200 series land cruiser
So is it's cargo area. I'm currently chewing on this. There are a bunch of reasons why the Commodore is dead. The lack of V8 is probably the tiniest of all influences.
 

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An upright SUV body is much more efficient space wise. A VF wagon is longer than a 200 series land cruiser
So is it's cargo area. I'm currently chewing on this. There are a bunch of reasons why the Commodore is dead. The lack of V8 is probably the tiniest of all influences.
And yet those buyers made up more than half of VF / VF II sales, easy sales that didn't need convincing. Almost every ex- Holden buyer I've spoken to said the ZB was the last straw, doing that was a crap on the Commodore name and the reason they've bought their last Holden.
Where Ford transitioned its buyers, Holden drove them away. Fluff on all you like about ZB but it was the nail in the coffin.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
And yet those buyers made up more than half of VF / VF II sales, easy sales that didn't need convincing. Almost every ex- Holden buyer I've spoken to said the ZB was the last straw, doing that was a crap on the Commodore name and the reason they've bought their last Holden.
Where Ford transitioned its buyers, Holden drove them away. Fluff on all you like about ZB but it was the nail in the coffin.
Those 50% of VF/VFII buyers being V8s is an abberation on the results because the doors were closing. You know that and so do they. V8s were around 30% including utes. The loss of the ute would have been a much bigger hit in the sales pocket. Most of those who moved from utes did so because of tax breaks. If everything remained equal, I doubt a locally built Commodore would have achieved 1000+ even with an LT1 8/9speed combo. The ZB is still a good car, but I'll agree that it's not the Commodore everyone has dreamed about. None of that really matters, because large passenger cars (even medium) have tanked. Even the once "mighty" Camry which leads its segment, is selling 60% of RAV4 volumes. In fact the Camry sales are the lowest they've been in over ten years (except for last year...)!

The Commodore was in a nose dive since 2010, and the only thing that stemmed the decline was a slight bump when it was announced that local manufacturing was going to end. Starting from 2010: 45,956, 40,617, 30,532, 27,766, (closure announced end of 2013. Lo and behold a resurgence in 2014) 30,203, 27,770, 25,860, 23,767. Even if they somehow maintained a 10% decline year on year, right now, they'd still be behind Camry.

The last 2 results are obviously the ugliest, 9,040 and 5,915.

Even if they managed to keep those 50% of VF/VFII buyers buying a new V8 every year, it's 1000 units per month and simply not sustainable. Add Chevrolet SS sales? Another 5000.

You should ask those buyers what they bought instead of a V8 Commodore. I'll be interested in hearing their answer, because it's not a Mustang, or anything remotely similar, because nobody is buying passenger cars unless they are small cars.
 

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And yet those buyers made up more than half of VF / VF II sales, easy sales that didn't need convincing. Almost every ex- Holden buyer I've spoken to said the ZB was the last straw, doing that was a crap on the Commodore name and the reason they've bought their last Holden.
Where Ford transitioned its buyers, Holden drove them away. Fluff on all you like about ZB but it was the nail in the coffin.
Those 50% of VF/VFII buyers being V8s is an abberation on the results because the doors were closing. You know that and so do they. V8s were around 30% including utes. The loss of the ute would have been a much bigger hit in the sales pocket. Most of those who moved from utes did so because of tax breaks. If everything remained equal, I doubt a locally built Commodore would have achieved 1000+ even with an LT1 8/9speed combo. The ZB is still a good car, but I'll agree that it's not the Commodore everyone has dreamed about. None of that really matters, because large passenger cars (even medium) have tanked. Even the once "mighty" Camry which leads its segment, is selling 60% of RAV4 volumes. In fact the Camry sales are the lowest they've been in over ten years (except for last year...)!

The Commodore was in a nose dive since 2010, and the only thing that stemmed the decline was a slight bump when it was announced that local manufacturing was going to end. Starting from 2010: 45,956, 40,617, 30,532, 27,766, (closure announced end of 2013. Lo and behold a resurgence in 2014) 30,203, 27,770, 25,860, 23,767. Even if they somehow maintained a 10% decline year on year, right now, they'd still be behind Camry.

The last 2 results are obviously the ugliest, 9,040 and 5,915.

Even if they managed to keep those 50% of VF/VFII buyers buying a new V8 every year, it's 1000 units per month and simply not sustainable. Add Chevrolet SS sales? Another 5000.

You should ask those buyers what they bought instead of a V8 Commodore. I'll be interested in hearing their answer, because it's not a Mustang, or anything remotely similar, because nobody is buying passenger cars unless they are small cars.
What really killed commodore sales was delaying VF for so long (delayed from 2011) and stretching out models like Ford did was death, people don’t want to buy the “same model” they trade in and that’s how it went for Holden.

Those rusted on V8 buyers took a lot of convincing to leave but once they did it was no wonder ZB was an unmitigated disaster.

The commodore failed because Holden let it, it’s too easy to agree with the accountants and just not do anything but let it fade away due to “natural causes” but the biggest tragedy here was that GM had no contingency, no transition plan for buyers, it lead to a cliff and Holden jumped off. The local commodore was the “rainmaker” the vehicle that drew other buyers to the brand but GM dis regarded that and undid decades of built up good will, the brand is now trashed.

OK, those V8 buyers had the last laugh, they took their business and their extended families and bought anything but Holden. Yes you heard that right, it’s all about these people wiping Holden like a dirty a55 and for mine, they got their revenge giving Holden a giant F U.
 

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What really killed commodore sales was delaying VF for so long (delayed from 2011) and stretching out models like Ford did was death, people don’t want to buy the “same model” they trade in and that’s how it went for Holden.
This.

At Holden people knew this was going to be the case from circa 2004-2005, when Denny Mooney delayed the VE by 12+ months, and then delayed the VF program to save $$$. Hundreds of Holden engineers lost their jobs at that time. During his short tenure he also managed to cancel the ute, twice.

A man overeducated above his intelligence, IMHO, he simply decided to delay the VF based on one single fact that TS Astra was still a good seller at that time even without a facelift. Delaying VE series 2 and VF was contrary to all market research and internal sales data. The problem was that the Commodore was Holden's core product, and majority of buyers were business/lease on a 3-year buying cycle. So customers started shopping elsewhere as there was no new/refreshed Holden product.
 

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What really killed commodore sales was delaying VF for so long (delayed from 2011) and stretching out models like Ford did was death, people don’t want to buy the “same model” they trade in and that’s how it went for Holden.
This.

At Holden people knew this was going to be the case from circa 2004-2005, when Denny Mooney delayed the VE by 12+ months, and then delayed the VF program to save $$$. Hundreds of Holden engineers lost their jobs at that time. During his short tenure he also managed to cancel the ute, twice.

A man overeducated above his intelligence, IMHO, he simply decided to delay the VF based on one single fact that TS Astra was still a good seller at that time even without a facelift. Delaying VE series 2 and VF was contrary to all market research and internal sales data. The problem was that the Commodore was Holden's core product, and majority of buyers were business/lease on a 3-year buying cycle. So customers started shopping elsewhere as there was no new/refreshed Holden product.
Ford basically went the same route stretching out both B and F series Falcons but a real gut punch was Gorman passing on diesel engine for Territory after Polities set up the ground work, it would be another five years before Ford would get a clue. Ford basically held fast on territory turbo until proved wrong but by that time, sales of Ford's SUV had evaporated.

Add to the above the government's growing resentment to support the local car industry, especially with the Murdoch press almost dictating policy direction on a monthly basis, it was inevitable that the white shoe brigade would dismiss the value of all local industry activity and keeping money in this country.


The decline in our local industry also mirrors the decline in support it received, turning into a visious cycle until the great triumph that was our local car industry died to the cheers of an uncaring government and the voters all went along with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
What really killed commodore sales was delaying VF for so long (delayed from 2011) and stretching out models like Ford did was death, people don’t want to buy the “same model” they trade in and that’s how it went for Holden.

Those rusted on V8 buyers took a lot of convincing to leave but once they did it was no wonder ZB was an unmitigated disaster.

The commodore failed because Holden let it, it’s too easy to agree with the accountants and just not do anything but let it fade away due to “natural causes” but the biggest tragedy here was that GM had no contingency, no transition plan for buyers, it lead to a cliff and Holden jumped off. The local commodore was the “rainmaker” the vehicle that drew other buyers to the brand but GM dis regarded that and undid decades of built up good will, the brand is now trashed.

OK, those V8 buyers had the last laugh, they took their business and their extended families and bought anything but Holden. Yes you heard that right, it’s all about these people wiping Holden like a dirty a55 and for mine, they got their revenge giving Holden a giant F U.
I think a lot of your assumptions are easy to make without considering the finances required to enact those decisions. Holden did get sucked dry by GMNA in 2008 and lost a whole raft of export opportunities.

I'm certainly not giving Denny Mooney any free positive press. His performance was ridiculous, particularly after Hanenberger. However, locally Holden were robbed of both cash (GM Daewoo, real cash), and export opportunities (Middle East and Pontiac). There was no impetus for GM to invest in ZetaII (or whatever). They had their own problems. VF definitely could have come earlier though, and would have been a much more attractive opportunity to upgrade.

Still, as you can see by the numbers above, they shed >30% sales in 3 years. Holding out an upgrade by 2 years seems like a convenient answer to the real problem, which was the toxic political environment and the watering down of import protections.
 

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Those 50% of VF/VFII buyers being V8s is an abberation on the results because the doors were closing. You know that and so do they. V8s were around 30% including utes. The loss of the ute would have been a much bigger hit in the sales pocket. Most of those who moved from utes did so because of tax breaks. If everything remained equal, I doubt a locally built Commodore would have achieved 1000+ even with an LT1 8/9speed combo. The ZB is still a good car, but I'll agree that it's not the Commodore everyone has dreamed about. None of that really matters, because large passenger cars (even medium) have tanked. Even the once "mighty" Camry which leads its segment, is selling 60% of RAV4 volumes. In fact the Camry sales are the lowest they've been in over ten years (except for last year...)!

The Commodore was in a nose dive since 2010, and the only thing that stemmed the decline was a slight bump when it was announced that local manufacturing was going to end. Starting from 2010: 45,956, 40,617, 30,532, 27,766, (closure announced end of 2013. Lo and behold a resurgence in 2014) 30,203, 27,770, 25,860, 23,767. Even if they somehow maintained a 10% decline year on year, right now, they'd still be behind Camry.

The last 2 results are obviously the ugliest, 9,040 and 5,915.

Even if they managed to keep those 50% of VF/VFII buyers buying a new V8 every year, it's 1000 units per month and simply not sustainable. Add Chevrolet SS sales? Another 5000.

You should ask those buyers what they bought instead of a V8 Commodore. I'll be interested in hearing their answer, because it's not a Mustang, or anything remotely similar, because nobody is buying passenger cars unless they are small cars.
Do you think that nose dive was at least partially caused by the fact VE had been on the market for 4 years (in 2010) and there was no new model coming any time soon?
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Definitely a factor, HQ308. Mooney was also the guy that pushed for the 4 spd to remain in the lower models. Though as I'd mentioned before, VEII was the time of the GFC, the Commodore was very dated by time 2010 rolled around. Coming from the protected market in the US, his scrape-every-penny perspective was inappropriate for the Oz market. The quality of finish in US cars is pretty ordinary, but when you're selling 500,000 units and competing against others that are in a similar race to the bottom, the error isn't so obvious. Base model Malibu was pretty embarrassing. The base model Malibu sold in Oz was much higher than the base model in the US.

Of course, the US passenger car market is now paying for that attitude. Impala and Taurus are both now dead.
 

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Definitely a factor, HQ308. Mooney was also the guy that pushed for the 4 spd to remain in the lower models. Though as I'd mentioned before, VEII was the time of the GFC, the Commodore was very dated by time 2010 rolled around. Coming from the protected market in the US, his scrape-every-penny perspective was inappropriate for the Oz market. The quality of finish in US cars is pretty ordinary, but when you're selling 500,000 units and competing against others that are in a similar race to the bottom, the error isn't so obvious. Base model Malibu was pretty embarrassing. The base model Malibu sold in Oz was much higher than the base model in the US.

Of course, the US passenger car market is now paying for that attitude. Impala and Taurus are both now dead.
the US market as a whole has this "walmart" fascination of driving prices down to maintain sales # to the POINT NEW is OFTEN WORSE then the OLD you are scrapping in furniture "white goods" / electronics
even HOUSES are CR*P build quality these days to the POINT fire departments are complaining HOW DANGEROUS modern houses are due to "cheap" building materials used
 

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if it wasn't for the gizzmos in new models (ie infotainment and g-sensors etc)
then would people really bother changing? Are the vehicles inherently any better? We now have ridiculous situations like brake ECU that have to be changed every 50K (Benz) or hand brake motors that fail.
The days of the new model being a major styling update are over so what drives people to want a new vehicle these days?
 

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if it wasn't for the gizzmos in new models (ie infotainment and g-sensors etc)
then would people really bother changing? Are the vehicles inherently any better? We now have ridiculous situations like brake ECU that have to be changed every 50K (Benz) or hand brake motors that fail.
The days of the new model being a major styling update are over so what drives people to want a new vehicle these days?
Also, those gizmo laden vehicles are yet another reason not to keep modern vehicles
a long as buyers did, the average life expectancy will be much less than vehicles that
were produced ten years ago. Manufacturers are reducing margins on part life so you
could be stuck with huge maintenance bills as some vehicles get older.
 

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Definitely a factor, HQ308. Mooney was also the guy that pushed for the 4 spd to remain in the lower models. Though as I'd mentioned before, VEII was the time of the GFC, the Commodore was very dated by time 2010 rolled around. Coming from the protected market in the US, his scrape-every-penny perspective was inappropriate for the Oz market. The quality of finish in US cars is pretty ordinary, but when you're selling 500,000 units and competing against others that are in a similar race to the bottom, the error isn't so obvious. Base model Malibu was pretty embarrassing. The base model Malibu sold in Oz was much higher than the base model in the US.

Of course, the US passenger car market is now paying for that attitude. Impala and Taurus are both now dead.
I think we can agree that there were a lot of factors contributing to Holden's demise
that by themselves could have been overcome but combined were fatal.


Keep in mind that the swing away from sedans in the US has been orchestrated by GM, Ford and FCA
over the past 5 years beginning with cheap refreshes that piss off buyers, encouraging them into SUVs
and trucks where the profits are. Funny how a change like that suits manufacturers.

GM took the quick way, built new SUVs in cheap Mexico, then closed down four UAW car plants, (gave one back)
Ford taking forever to get Mexico in play, just replaced car products for Ranger and more SUVs at MAP and CAP.

there is still money to be made in cars but altered as crossovers, manufacturers will charge more for superficial changes.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
I think we can agree that there were a lot of factors contributing to Holden's demise
that by themselves could have been overcome but combined were fatal.


Keep in mind that the swing away from sedans in the US has been orchestrated by GM, Ford and FCA
over the past 5 years beginning with cheap refreshes that piss off buyers, encouraging them into SUVs
and trucks where the profits are. Funny how a change like that suits manufacturers.

GM took the quick way, built new SUVs in cheap Mexico, then closed down four UAW car plants, (gave one back)
Ford taking forever to get Mexico in play, just replaced car products for Ranger and more SUVs at MAP and CAP.

there is still money to be made in cars but altered as crossovers, manufacturers will charge more for superficial changes.
I pretty much totally agree with everything else above.


I'm currently driving the Kia Seltos GT Line, which is 10k more than the Cerato GT Line. The difference? AWD... oh and the mood lighting changes to the beat of the music. How's that for an essential feature China!? MOODLIGHTING (you need to slide right to the fourth pic)
 

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In Holden's currect "2019 Plate Clearance" TV advert touting the 7 years free servicing, has anyone else noticed the decidely foreign accent of the lead character/presenter?

This, I am sure, is not accidental.
 
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