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Personally I think Cadillac's dynamics should be balanced. They shouldn't wallow, but they should feel planted and substantial. It's not that they shouldn't build cars that are dynamically excellent, but making that their USP is the problem - because it's not a USP. Others are doing the same thing, including ones with more history in doing so that are therefore an easier sell to many customers. Audi is an example of a brand that does not market their existence on being a sports product brand. They have sportier products, but they don't treat it as their foundation.
It was stated many times in publications that Cadillac has the best ride and handling balance in the business and I can confirm that assessment when I took couple of ATS 2.5 and 2.0T out and thought the ride was supple over the road imperfections and the ride quality was very similar to the XTS same as for the CTS 3.6.

Ride quality is a matter of opinion.

The most recent review of the ATS-V in Car and Drive gave the ATS-V a 10 in ride and a 10 in handling.

Cadillac is perfecting that perfect balance all the time in their cars.

Also the cars currently, no matter what you drive, you could easily find comfort in them even in the V Series.
 
Roy. I see nothing superior in the N20 or B48 engine over the LTG. If anything the inherit reliability of the GM engine trumps any perceived NHV advantage the BMW engine may have.. ironically. Not to mention that BOTH the BMW and GM 2.0L Turbos won the Wards Best engine in 2013. What gives?
You're correct about Ward's 10 Best Engines list for 2013. Ford's 2.0L EcoBoost four was on that list as well. Perhaps Ward's wanted to emphasize forced induction that year; six of the ten winners were turbocharged or supercharged. ;)

Drive an N20 equipped BMW sedan back to back with a comparable Cadillac sedan with the LTG engine, and there's no doubt that the BMW engine delivers power in a much smoother, more linear fashion - from just above idle all the way to redline (and even past it to the fuel cutoff rpm). The GM LTG engine is amply powerful, but is also buzzy both at idle (as Murrow mentioned) and at higher revs, where it also has soft spots in power delivery as well.

What aspects of the GM LTG engine make it inherently more reliable than BMW's N20?
 
It was stated many times in publications that Cadillac has the best ride and handling balance in the business and I can confirm that assessment when I took couple of ATS 2.5 and 2.0T out and thought the ride was supple over the road imperfections and the ride quality was very similar to the XTS same as for the CTS 3.6.

Ride quality is a matter of opinion.

The most recent review of the ATS-V in Car and Drive gave the ATS-V a 10 in ride and a 10 in handling.

Cadillac is perfecting that perfect balance all the time in their cars.

Also the cars currently, no matter what you drive, you could easily find comfort in them even in the V Series.
Which is not a bad thing. Yet again I repeat what said:

It's not that they shouldn't build cars that are dynamically excellent, but making that their USP is the problem - because it's not a USP.
 
I think there is more than a little 'how did this go wrong?' surrounding these cars and, to be honest, I'm kinda' surprised people are surprised. I think a good comparison here can be drawn with the Lexus LS400, and the differences in the introduction of that car and the introduction of these two. If we equate what the ATS and CTS bring to the handling equation to what the 90 Lexus LS400 brought to the luxury equation, the rest becomes the focal point. And the differences there were...

1990 Lexus LS400
*Less expensive than any direct competitor
*More reliable and better quality than the competition in every case
*Superior dealer experience to any rival
***And I'll throw in the bonus that the added luxury relative to the competition, as mentioned earlier, was something that nearly any consumer could and would notice if looked at objectively. Not many people in the luxury segment will be overheard saying 'those added features and qualities are just too luxurious, I don't think I want them'.

Current ATS and CTS
*Priced on par with direct competitors
*Reliability and quality is probably about average, and I'm arguably being kind. ATS hasn't been great to be sure. Certainly, they aren't on par with Lexus
*Dealer experience is inconsistent to say the least. Rumors say there are great stores out there, but many stores still have the same guy who just sold that used Aveo walking you out to look at a CTS-V
***And a negative on handling, realistically this isn't an advantage everybody in this market notices when you start playing at the level Cadillac is......not even those who prefer sporty cars. This is primarily because increased handling prowess and improved steering feel has a point of diminishing returns for most buyers, there will come a point where the handling, steering feel, and power/acceleration of German car X or Japanese car Y is more than enough....and then they start looking at other areas. Luxury, features, and amenities don't seem to hit that ceiling as hard, and in part I would suggest that issue is what you are seeing here.

To wit, you probably have a lot of consumers saying 'my 3 Series handles just fine now, what else are you bringing to the table?', and the answer GM has is 'Art and Science Styling and more of what you think the 3 Series already offers enough of anyway'. I would suggest that isn't working out so well, at least not for the ATS and CTS.
 
I think there is more than a little 'how did this go wrong?' surrounding these cars and, to be honest, I'm kinda' surprised people are surprised. I think a good comparison here can be drawn with the Lexus LS400, and the differences in the introduction of that car and the introduction of these two. If we equate what the ATS and CTS bring to the handling equation to what the 90 Lexus LS400 brought to the luxury equation, the rest becomes the focal point. And the differences there were...

1990 Lexus LS400
*Less expensive than any direct competitor
*More reliable and better quality than the competition in every case
*Superior dealer experience to any rival
***And I'll throw in the bonus that the added luxury relative to the competition, as mentioned earlier, was something that nearly any consumer could and would notice if looked at objectively. Not many people in the luxury segment will be overheard saying 'those added features and qualities are just too luxurious, I don't think I want them'.

Current ATS and CTS
*Priced on par with direct competitors
*Reliability and quality is probably about average, and I'm arguably being kind. ATS hasn't been great to be sure. Certainly, they aren't on par with Lexus
*Dealer experience is inconsistent to say the least. Rumors say there are great stores out there, but many stores still have the same guy who just sold that used Aveo walking you out to look at a CTS-V
***And a negative on handling, realistically this isn't an advantage everybody in this market notices when you start playing at the level Cadillac is......not even those who prefer sporty cars. This is primarily because increased handling prowess and improved steering feel has a point of diminishing returns for most buyers, there will come a point where the handling, steering feel, and power/acceleration of German car X or Japanese car Y is more than enough....and then they start looking at other areas. Luxury, features, and amenities don't seem to hit that ceiling as hard, and in part I would suggest that issue is what you are seeing here.

To wit, you probably have a lot of consumers saying 'my 3 Series handles just fine now, what else are you bringing to the table?', and the answer GM has is 'Art and Science Styling and more of what you think the 3 Series already offers enough of anyway'. I would suggest that isn't working out so well, at least not for the ATS and CTS.
The cup is indeed half empty.
 
You're correct about Ward's 10 Best Engines list for 2013. Ford's 2.0L EcoBoost four was on that list as well. Perhaps Ward's wanted to emphasize forced induction that year; six of the ten winners were turbocharged or supercharged. ;)

Drive an N20 equipped BMW sedan back to back with a comparable Cadillac sedan with the LTG engine, and there's no doubt that the BMW engine delivers power in a much smoother, more linear fashion - from just above idle all the way to redline (and even past it to the fuel cutoff rpm). The GM LTG engine is amply powerful, but is also buzzy both at idle (as Murrow mentioned) and at higher revs, where it also has soft spots in power delivery as well.

What aspects of the GM LTG engine make it inherently more reliable than BMW's N20?
Inherently? I don't kno. Pixies and magic dust? Maybe... I just kno that a lot of people I know with that engine have visited the service bay more than one time since owning... ATS owners with the 2.0.. Not so much. Hell not even. Again these are people I know.
Oh and while I'll certainly give it to the BMW engine at idle I can't say the same after warm up. I will call them equal at worst
 
I'm satisfied with the 2.0T power in my 2014 CTS, but I find the engine buzzy at idle, especially when it's cold. I don't think I could have paid $66k for a car with this engine. The handling, however, is truly impressive. My CTS is very well balanced. I feel like I take turns with at least the same speed and confidence with which I would my former G35 Coupe.

I really like the looks of the CTS, even with my 17" wheels, but if someone has the 18s or 19s they're taking off, let me know. I would be interested in buying them!
If its DI it will buzz. My 3L v6 CTS sounded like a ups truck for about 30 secs when it was cold.
 
I think there is more than a little 'how did this go wrong?' surrounding these cars and, to be honest, I'm kinda' surprised people are surprised. I think a good comparison here can be drawn with the Lexus LS400, and the differences in the introduction of that car and the introduction of these two. If we equate what the ATS and CTS bring to the handling equation to what the 90 Lexus LS400 brought to the luxury equation, the rest becomes the focal point. And the differences there were...

1990 Lexus LS400
*Less expensive than any direct competitor
*More reliable and better quality than the competition in every case
*Superior dealer experience to any rival
***And I'll throw in the bonus that the added luxury relative to the competition, as mentioned earlier, was something that nearly any consumer could and would notice if looked at objectively. Not many people in the luxury segment will be overheard saying 'those added features and qualities are just too luxurious, I don't think I want them'.

Current ATS and CTS
*Priced on par with direct competitors
*Reliability and quality is probably about average, and I'm arguably being kind. ATS hasn't been great to be sure. Certainly, they aren't on par with Lexus
*Dealer experience is inconsistent to say the least. Rumors say there are great stores out there, but many stores still have the same guy who just sold that used Aveo walking you out to look at a CTS-V
***And a negative on handling, realistically this isn't an advantage everybody in this market notices when you start playing at the level Cadillac is......not even those who prefer sporty cars. This is primarily because increased handling prowess and improved steering feel has a point of diminishing returns for most buyers, there will come a point where the handling, steering feel, and power/acceleration of German car X or Japanese car Y is more than enough....and then they start looking at other areas. Luxury, features, and amenities don't seem to hit that ceiling as hard, and in part I would suggest that issue is what you are seeing here.

To wit, you probably have a lot of consumers saying 'my 3 Series handles just fine now, what else are you bringing to the table?', and the answer GM has is 'Art and Science Styling and more of what you think the 3 Series already offers enough of anyway'. I would suggest that isn't working out so well, at least not for the ATS and CTS.
I agree with you on multiple fronts. Core elements of the product, such as dependability, need to be improved with certain models. While they don't strictly need to equal Lexus, they should be reliable cars. The ATS in particular seems to have talk of issues. Dealer service should be top notch everywhere.

That said, I think in some of the other areas you mentioned Cadillac would be challenged to set themselves apart from some competitors by any meaningful metric. Lexus and now some others already have exemplary service, so Cadillac merely matching that won't really be industry-changing the way it was for Lexus. How does Cadillac top that? Do they go to ludicrous levels, like providing services for all cars similar to the Equus or Lincoln Black Label where you never have to take your car in? Or even for the Equus, AFAIK you literally never have to go to one of their stores. They bring the car to you in order for you to test it and so on. Very personalized. The CT6 will most likely be priced comfortably south of the German brands for the most part, but how much cheaper can they make the CTS? Then it gets too close to the ATS, which is really as downmarket as the brand can support in its current situation. Plus, I think if Cadillac produces the best car in the segment (or arguably so), they can utilize effective ad campaigns and so forth to ask for a competitive sum of money, which is different than Lexus but I'll compare it in a moment. Our prized example here is the Escalade. Even though it wasn't really a pioneer of the segment (many would point to the Range Rover, Land Cruiser/LX, and Navigator), it was something people wanted and they have never had to back down on pricing. Indeed, the current one is more expensive than some versions of the aging Navigator, QX80, or lower level GL-Classes. Even without Cadillac's reputation near that of top luxury rivals, people regardless continue buying a Cadillac that they want. I've been a fervent supporter of where the ATS and CTS pricing currently exists relative to their competitors, as they still represent a value but without 1990 LS/2009 Genesis bargain pricing either. Cadillac is more established, even with their lack of European exoticism.

The rise of Lexus is thanks in part to Toyota's pragmatic approach to exploiting a weakness in Detroit's luxury brands. By the debut of the 1990 LS, BMW and Mercedes were by and large a whole tier up on Cadillac and Lincoln. While the Seville was marginally cheaper than the S-Class when it was first released in the 70s, the Seville was what, maybe only 60% of the price or so of it by ~1990? This was in part due to the Seville now more or less going up against the E-Class instead, but you get my point. Anyway, there was room between BMW/Mercedes at the top end of the luxury market and medium level and quasi-upscale brands at the lower end. Had brands like Alfa Romeo or Saab been handled better by this point, they might have doomed further the efforts of Cadillac, Lincoln, or even premium Buick and Oldsmobile options, but with plenty of buyers still acquiring Cadillacs and Lincolns in that day, there was clearly a market for a luxury product not as expensive as BMW and Mercedes but far nicer than a Camry or Taurus. Acura managed to sell a great number of Legends in the mid-to-late 90s, by applying a similar principle of value. The Legend was reasonably cheaper than the 5-Series and E-Class. Niche alternatives from brands like Saab and Volvo were available as well. And I haven't forgotten Audi, but the 90s as we know was the period when they got admirably serious about being the equal of their German peers. They too had something of a value proposition for a time. Ultimately then, Lexus' idea of competing with the MB/BMW competition from a value standpoint was not novel in and of itself - basically everyone other than BMWMB was doing it. But Lexus had fantastic product and dynamic marketing (from positioning to service to ads), which combined to make the LS in particular so appealing they outsold many of the aforementioned brands in the early years of the first LS. Why would you buy a Seville or Continental for not that much less than a LS?

And perhaps to the surprise of everyone, almost no one really tried to challenge them. Cadillac and Lincoln marched on, largely incapable of reversing their demographic trend and falling market share. Saab remained quirky under GM and not particularly well managed to say the least, and Infiniti had only mild success at best in the 90s, with neither the marketing nor a sufficiently competent lineup to scare Lexus. Audi made very legitimate efforts to create a premium luxury brand and although they've never been able to go toe to toe with the volume of BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus in the US, they eventually became the second biggest luxury automaker globally by volume. Just prior to moving to Ford, Volvo had prepared the S80 that existed mostly under the Ford era, and from there they began lifting themselves into the more discerning and serious portion of the luxury market and away from being merely an intermediate brand. Certainly no Lexus, however. The ironic aspect to Lexus in the US was that they were able to apply values of Japanese expectations to the American industry. High quality was already a given, but also great service. Also, a plush ride and isolation from the road were qualities both Americans and Japanese alike could appreciate. To this day a Crown or Crown Majesta is a very cushy, conservative sedan compared to the much sportier current Lexus GS for example, or European challengers. Lexus had built the ultimate Japanese luxury sedan just as many appreciated more overtly the Germanic nature of BMW and Mercedes cars.

Point being, today Cadillac has more robust competition, and almost everyone other than the Germans already offer a value. Hyundai/Kia now claim bargain luxury right now too, and aside from badge Cadillac would be hard pressed to make inroads by offering similarly, shockingly low prices relative to the quality of product
 
Point being, today Cadillac has more robust competition, and almost everyone other than the Germans already offer a value. Hyundai/Kia now claim bargain luxury right now too, and aside from badge Cadillac would be hard pressed to make inroads by offering similarly, shockingly low prices relative to the quality of product.
It's also the reason why Cadillac (and lincoln) are trading at higher entry points which also reduces market percentage.
The vehicles now exist to make money for their corporate masters and even though sales are fewer than traditionally
expected, the trade off is better returns with fewer resources expended to get them..

the last line of the OP's linked article is telling:
It’s too bad that buyers are staying away from the Cadillac in droves—they’re missing out on automotive greatness.
The issue is no longer whether the cars are good enough or not, the CTS is clearly superior product
but the absolute tragedy is that buyers are not embracing the product for whatever reason.
The problems are marketing and perception, so frustrating when GM has spent so much time,
effort and money to deliver what can onlu be described as a true performance luxury experience.
 
Discussion starter · #91 ·
Whatever U say. I am not allowed to disagree. U win.
Casa, when two parties have a disagreement on an automotive forum, it's not about winning or losing. It's about explaining your POV to the other party, and vice versa. Winning and losing is child talk.

It's fine to disagree, but don't treat it like it's the World Series.*

*Which, for the record the Orioles haven't been to in almost half a decade. :p:

Yes. Yes it does. It is a flaming, rolling, heap of turd that should not exist in its current form.
Agree.

The sad thing about the CLA is that it only sells because of it's badge. I would take the new Civic sedan or the new Crude over a CLA
NEW CRUDE LOL.

You just gave Ford fans a new name to use for when they defend the Focus lol.

Those gauges are nice. So I'm assuming these are the on the updated ATS as well, right?
Wishful thinking. :)

Good. Cadillacs interiors should look luxurious, not like a 70s bordello.
So this gorgeous interior is "'70s Bordello" to you?

Image


And this is fine?

Image


In my opinion, the Morello Red in the CTS is a weak attempt at best at a Red interior. It's Black with Red accents at best.

That is further from the truth why the ATS and CTS does not sell. Cadillac created a need for sport sedans while cars like the E Class created a need for luxury mid-size sedans. Cadillac can tune the suspension for ride comfort over handling and vice-versa for Mercedes Benz if they wanted to-don't have anything to do for lack of sales. You already know the main reasons why the ATS and CTS are not selling in huge numbers especially the CTS.
Why don't they sell? I still haven't gotten a proper explanation as to why they don't from fans of the two.

And actually, the E Class is available in luxury biased and sport biased trim. Which is smart. Give people choices.

If the second generation CTS was just as good like the current CTS and killed the competition in driving dynamics, IMO, the car would have sold in great numbers as a tweener also.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying you think that if the G3 CTS was the size of the G2 CTS, it would have sold just as well?

How did Mercedes learn their lesson from the CLA? The GLA looks just as bad like CLA and the current more expensive models from C Class on up has better interior quality which the current models was already set in place long time age same as for CLA and GLA product placement.
The GLA was on sale worldwide before it hit our shores. And it made sense to import it, as the luxury CUV/hatch boom has them selling rather well, despite the [numerous] shortcomings.

I still despise the car.

The current Mercedes are great cars. The next E-Class is going to be nice but it is not going to destroy the CTS on anything. The CTS will get several enhancements on technology on '17 just like the rest of the Cadillacs. The E Class is going to be a major improvement but will meet the CTS in some areas, maybe surpass it on few things but not destroy. And the XF is too new and it won't get destroyed either.
The E Class will do the CTS and the rest of the class what the C Class did to the ATS and the rest of the class, and then some.

New E is going to be a monster.

And by the way, the XF destroyed itself. The interior is notch below amateur level at best.

Totally agree with your post (but Alfa-Romeo is Italian, not French). Envoy says that Cadillac needs to be Cadillac...what in the world does that mean? That Cadillac shouldn't focus on driving anymore and dumb down their dynamics, while emphasizing cushiony luxury with the finest materials and stellar build quality? That sounds like Lexus to me. If they followed that route, then they'd be accused of being Lexus and not Cadillac. Plus I thought the biggest reason for low sales is pricing, not because Americans think Cadillac is phony by trying to be BMW.

So my question is: what is Cadillac supposed to be, specifically? Apparently RWD, awesome driving sports sedans is not the answer for some of you, since BMW has that role and no one should try to compete with them. Personally I don't see Cadillac as being anything else but Cadillac, and the product they're putting out right now is light years from where they were just 5 years ago, IMHO.
You're going too far into what I'm saying. I'm not advocating for future Cadillacs to be couches on wheels.

Have them drive well, but if you're going to use how they drive as a selling point against "THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE", "SHEER DRIVING PLEASURE", and "THE ULTIMATE DRIVING EXPERIENCE" in BMW, who's had that same slogan for decades, good luck. No one is going to buy an imposter when they can get the Real McCoy. And sales show that.

Lexus was cushiony luxury with best in class materials, best in class fit & finish, and best in class buying experience. That's why Lexus became a success. They didn't ape anyone or emulate anyone. What they're doing now is the exact opposite of what made them what they are, and IMHO it's a grave mistake that they'll regret.

V Series Cadillacs being sold on how they drive? Sure. That's the point of a V Series Cadillac. But a $75,000 205 inch barge being sold on how light it is and how much better/faster it'll take a hairpin turn than its competition? LOL. Good luck with that.

People are completely missing the point of building 'traditional Cadillacs'. They don't need to be rolling sofas, as that's not what I think anyone is talking about. It's the focus on style, luxury, and prestige. People complain the ATS and parts of the CTS are too bland, which should not be a complaint of a Cadillac. The Escalade isn't even a wallowy mushmobile for what it is, is hugely stylish, and surprise! It sells brilliantly in spite of all its limitations people whine about (mass market platform, column shifter, LRA, etc). THAT is a Cadillac. They just need to build something with that sort of style and confidence among their sedans and crossovers.
EXACTLY!!!

Lexus was not building Japanese BMWs until recently. As my post history will indicate time and again, I have shouted that this is an error in judgment. They're throwing away a huge part of what made a Lexus a Lexus and what is associated with their brand.
Nailed. It.

Perfectly said.
 
Casa, when two parties have a disagreement on an automotive forum, it's not about winning or losing. It's about explaining your POV to the other party, and vice versa. Winning and losing is child talk.

It's fine to disagree, but don't treat it like it's the World Series.*

*Which, for the record the Orioles haven't been to in almost half a decade. :p:
Check your pm for my response
 
The E Class will do the CTS and the rest of the class what the C Class did to the ATS and the rest of the class, and then some.

New E is going to be a monster.

And by the way, the XF destroyed itself. The interior is notch below amateur level at best.
If Cadillac, Jaguar, Audi or any of the others are expecting the new E to be just a warmed over version of the current car, they're probably going to be in for a nasty surprise. I say probably since technically we can't "know", but if the C, GLC, and S are any indication, the new E will be the most lavish and decadent sedan in its class. Lincoln and Volvo in particular are going more for the luxury angle, but Mercedes is cranking up the volume on it with their other products. And it's sure to have some of the most technology in the segment. It'll be on their new modular platform and is rumored to have some interesting engine options. Maybe it'll be a huge disappointment, but if I were on the new A6 project (as I assume one is along the way now) I wouldn't dare expect it. Making matters worse for the 5-Series hopefuls, BMW is also redesigning their 5-Series for 2017 as well. The new 7-Series doesn't seem to indicate BMW is going to go full E39 on it, but even with some weight savings and better tuned steering, it'd be right where it needs to be. I may not be as negative on the XF as you, but I too am disappointed in a few regards. The interior isn't STS-bad, but it lacks that warmth of a Jag interior. I would have wanted them to mirror the current XJ. And the rear of the car is rather dull for a supposed emotional Jaguar. Still, it will be phasing in their new engine series and has their new modular platform, plus early reviews have been positive. If they're able to repair their image to a reasonable degree, they could see some modest success in the US and further cement their position.

Have them drive well, but if you're going to use how they drive as a selling point against "THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE", "SHEER DRIVING PLEASURE", and "THE ULTIMATE DRIVING EXPERIENCE" in BMW, who's had that same slogan for decades, good luck. No one is going to buy an imposter when they can get the Real McCoy. And sales show that.
Numerous brands have fallen for the allure of becoming BMW, but it hasn't worked out too well for them has it? Infiniti has tried for years and seen some success, but mostly centered on making the G a great value and stylish. The Q50 continues in this tradition, and the second generation M was mostly successful, though Infiniti failed to keep it updated and towards the end the sales slipped. Most of the rest of Infiniti hasn't really been that successful, QX80 excepted. Outside of the IS, the sporty new Lexus line hasn't done much. These two could do better, but have thus far lacked the dedication to serious investment and work to make the concept successful. Doing it halfway has left BMW to do nothing but find more niches to enter with all the profits they're earning. Jaguar's 2008 XF was refreshingly British in its sense of pantomime. But Jaguar, like Cadillac, had earned a image problem and one that they evidently did not fix. There are those who'd mention their dependability concerns as well. We know they're taking steps to alleviate such concerns, so we'll see what happens. As with Cadillac, they need to modernize their image and be seen as something contemporary and fashionable, not old world.

Lexus was cushiony luxury with best in class materials, best in class fit & finish, and best in class buying experience. That's why Lexus became a success. They didn't ape anyone or emulate anyone. What they're doing now is the exact opposite of what made them what they are, and IMHO it's a grave mistake that they'll regret.
While Lexus did use various Mercedes styling details at times, I too wouldn't say Lexus is an exact example of reproducing a German formula with a better price. As you said, they had great quality and service, no doubt aided by the reputation of Japanese thoroughness. They created their own values which were not the same as any of the German or American brands. I would guess at some point in the last decade Lexus realized they needed to ensure they appealed to more than just older demographics with their cars, as they didn't have the edgy performance models, sleek styling, or sports cars that some successful competitors offered. But where I think they went wrong was in deciding that they needed to discard much of what made them successful and do something completely new. The current GS should have instead dialed up the luxury and detail, a piece of the equation wherein Lexus long lagged behind brands like Audi. They were brilliantly put together, but they didn't feel as special. They could have increased styling too. The idea of a stylish Lexus was hardly new anyway. Coincidentally Italdesign Giugiaro had done the design of the concept on which the original GS was based. Instead they've done their whole F-Sport thing and yes, by media reviews they have the better sport sedan relative to the 5-Series. And how much to buyers seem to care? At their respective peaks the last two generations of GS sold better, so to some degree they seem to have failed to retain all the customers they used to have while at the same time drawing in too few of the customers they wanted. For them, success with the sporty Lexus is all about the strong selling IS. Doing a sporty IS doesn't really bother me though as the original IS was also very much a sport sedan, so it's rather in keeping with the IS name.

It's also the reason why Cadillac (and lincoln) are trading at higher entry points which also reduces market percentage.
The vehicles now exist to make money for their corporate masters and even though sales are fewer than traditionally
expected, the trade off is better returns with fewer resources expended to get them..

the last line of the OP's linked article is telling:

The issue is no longer whether the cars are good enough or not, the CTS is clearly superior product
but the absolute tragedy is that buyers are not embracing the product for whatever reason.
The problems are marketing and perception, so frustrating when GM has spent so much time,
effort and money to deliver what can onlu be described as a true performance luxury experience.
Yes, and I think with some packaging updates they could increase ATPs on the CTS as well. A de-tuned or otherwise version of the CT6's 3.0TT should have replaced the LGX and been accompanied by a minor price increase. However, performance would have been more noticeably improved and potentially encouraged more customers to upgrade to the V-6. And maybe they did it because it would be a low volume model, but omitting the AWD option on the Vsport limits its appeal too, possibly leaving some customers to go "down" to the cheaper engines or, if they really want that kind of power, head over to a competitor's dealer.

You said it yourself though. The problem is perception, which should have been improved by how Cadillac marketed the car. The car's lack of being super cheap for the segment or using the downmarket CTS nameplate could have been overcome had they been smart about how they marketed the vehicle. They had better hope that Jaguar, Volvo, Lincoln and others don't make inroads in the mid-luxury segment because not only does that leave them with less market percentages, more competition is supposedly on the way to boot.
 
And actually, the E Class is available in luxury biased and sport biased trim. Which is smart. Give people choices.
The E Class with the sport package is not any more sportier than the regular luxury bias E Class. Sportier? Yes but not to a large degree.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying you think that if the G3 CTS was the size of the G2 CTS, it would have sold just as well?
No, did not mean it like that.

The E Class will do the CTS and the rest of the class what the C Class did to the ATS and the rest of the class, and then some.

New E is going to be a monster.

And by the way, the XF destroyed itself. The interior is notch below amateur level at best.
The E Class, IMO, will set the standard but seriously, it is not going to put Cadillac to shame especially interior wise. IMO, the CTS currently has the best looking interior design in class. Even if the E Class comes out with better looking interior with buttons made out of brush aluminum or Galvoni chrome like the S Class, the CTS will be O.K. especially the top trm, Premium Collection where the car has a leather padded steering wheel. Will the E Class has the leather padded steering wheel? I would like to see on that? The CTS, regardless of what collection, has the best interior in class right now until fresher competition comes out next year with the E class and 5 Series.

And you are wrong about the C Class putting the interior of the ATS to shame because it did not. Matter of opinion of course but the ATS has one of the best interior designs in its class regardless of what trim. The BMW and Audi does not come close to it. The C Class has a nice interior also but the only downfall with it is the I-Pad like device sticking out like an eyesore. Not a deal breaker but could cause potential vehicle break-ins.

I don't like the interior of the Jaguar much also but Jaguar will have a fan base and possible gain conquest sales.
 
I disagree completely on the interior comparison, and so will most consumers who are accustomed to first rate luxury items. Cadillac is doing a good job on interior design of late, but there is absolutely room to utilize better materials than Cadillac currently does and, for example, the C Class does just that. The new C Class absolutely uses a nicer slate of materials than the Cadillac ATS does across the board, in fact it uses a nicer slate of materials than anybody in this segment that I am aware of including BMW and Audi, the latter of which pretty easily tops Cadillac on materials usage as well which puts just how far ahead Mercedes is here into perspective. Realistically, if Mercedes had a VW-esque counterpart like Audi does the materials difference between the C Class and ATS is likely akin to what you might see between that mainstream counterpart and the Mercedes. Genuinely. If Cadillac wants to play with the best in the pond here they need to step up their interior materials, fit, and finish game a lot.

To be blunt, I think it's a little more difficult to play in this end of the pool than GM or many of their enthusiasts realized, precisely because GM hasn't been here for so long they just don't know what they don't know. People criticize Ford for being overly conservative and going the slow road around the mountain with Lincoln, but without question their experience with JLR and Aston Martin taught them lessons GM couldn't possibly know. And one of those was that you just don't show up to the ball as new money, even if you just happen to have an old name, and act like your the heir to the throne.....because it doesn't work. Cadillac has zero business trying to charge on par money for the new ATS and CTS as rivals do for cars like the C Class and 6 Series, they just aren't there yet, and they still won't be there this time next year.

And what you are seeing right now, with this car, is that same strategy I mention above that doesn't work, not working.
 
The E Class will do the CTS and the rest of the class what the C Class did to the ATS and the rest of the class, and then some.

New E is going to be a monster.

And by the way, the XF destroyed itself. The interior is notch below amateur level at best.
Isn't the mid-cycle refreshment for CTS coming in year or two?

So maybe gap between CTS (if it keeps its name) and new E class won't be so big.

Of course rumors are future CTS (CT5 or CT4?) will grow bigger.

Now regarding engines, rumors are Mercedes E is getting inline 6 so if this is true there can be some problem for competition to achieve NVH advantage here.
 
I disagree completely on the interior comparison, and so will most consumers who are accustomed to first rate luxury items. Cadillac is doing a good job on interior design of late, but there is absolutely room to utilize better materials than Cadillac currently does and, for example, the C Class does just that. The new C Class absolutely uses a nicer slate of materials than the Cadillac ATS does across the board, in fact it uses a nicer slate of materials than anybody in this segment that I am aware of including BMW and Audi, the latter of which pretty easily tops Cadillac on materials usage as well which puts just how far ahead Mercedes is here into perspective. Realistically, if Mercedes had a VW-esque counterpart like Audi does the materials difference between the C Class and ATS is likely akin to what you might see between that mainstream counterpart and the Mercedes. Genuinely. If Cadillac wants to play with the best in the pond here they need to step up their interior materials, fit, and finish game a lot.

To be blunt, I think it's a little more difficult to play in this end of the pool than GM or many of their enthusiasts realized, precisely because GM hasn't been here for so long they just don't know what they don't know. People criticize Ford for being overly conservative and going the slow road around the mountain with Lincoln, but without question their experience with JLR and Aston Martin taught them lessons GM couldn't possibly know. And one of those was that you just don't show up to the ball as new money, even if you just happen to have an old name, and act like your the heir to the throne.....because it doesn't work. Cadillac has zero business trying to charge on par money for the new ATS and CTS as rivals do for cars like the C Class and 6 Series, they just aren't there yet, and they still won't be there this time next year.

And what you are seeing right now, with this car, is that same strategy I mention above that doesn't work, not working.
The Audi A6 has a superb interior, but I would say the CTS has one of the closest interiors in some ways. Personally I prefer the Cadillac's design as well. Many would accurately point out that the Cadillac's interior is more than competitive against a GS, Q70, or Ghibli (if you really want to call that a competitor). But the problem is that those cars aren't considered the standards of the segment; the Germans are. So surpassing the wannabes is of minimal note in the eyes of the industry. But you're totally right on the C-Class' interior, and I said previously that if the C, GLC, and S are basically what we can expect from the new E-Class, even Audi will have their hands full delivering an equally opulent interior. Regardless it's still a matter of perception for the E-Class. People may forget, but the 1992 Seville had a great design, nice interior, and once the 1993's Northstar's were available, plenty of power was under the hood. But the Seville like other Cadillacs had a perception problem. While sales weren't bad, it seems likely that they still demographically were not drawing enough of the right buyers because by the late 90s the competition was as successful as ever. So until Cadillac repairs the image of such a vehicle (and their brand), it won't matter how well the CTS corners or how much leather covers the interior.

Johan seems to know how to package a car correctly. This 4 Banger CTS is a looker. A Proper lease special.
Wasn't the CTS already on sale prior to the beginning of the JdN era? I'm a JdN fan, but still the whole car was designed, priced, and on sale before he was at Cadillac.

Isn't the mid-cycle refreshment for CTS coming in year or two?

So maybe gap between CTS (if it keeps its name) and new E class won't be so big.

Of course rumors are future CTS (CT5 or CT4?) will grow bigger.

Now regarding engines, rumors are Mercedes E is getting inline 6 so if this is true there can be some problem for competition to achieve NVH advantage here.
Hopefully. What causes me slight worry is that if the car is not considered to be much of a success GM might not allow as expensive and thorough an update as the CTS could use.

BMW's I-6 is as refined as most any V-8 from competitors' cars, so if Mercedes has a good I-6 I don't think people will complain about refinement in the E-Class. I-6s are notoriously smooth.
 
Discussion starter · #99 ·
The E Class with the sport package is not any more sportier than the regular luxury bias E Class. Sportier? Yes but not to a large degree.
This tells me you haven't driven both of them or even ridden in the two. There's a pretty noticeable difference between them. The suspension is tuned differently in the sport model, the sport has 18 inch wheels, and the styling is different.

The E Class, IMO, will set the standard but seriously, it is not going to put Cadillac to shame especially interior wise. IMO, the CTS currently has the best looking interior design in class. Even if the E Class comes out with better looking interior with buttons made out of brush aluminum or Galvoni chrome like the S Class, the CTS will be O.K. especially the top trm, Premium Collection where the car has a leather padded steering wheel. Will the E Class has the leather padded steering wheel? I would like to see on that? The CTS, regardless of what collection, has the best interior in class right now until fresher competition comes out next year with the E class and 5 Series.
It'll do to the CTS what the C did to the ATS and the rest of the class. In other words, outclass them all interior-wise.

And it could certainly be argued that the A6 is just as nice, if not nicer inside than the CTS. But for the class, the CTS is certainly towards the top, no doubt. It'll depend on how good the 2017 MCE is to keep the CTS relevant with the new E and new 5 coming. History tells us Cadillac MCEs do nothing in terms of interior material choices and attention to detail. We'll see.

And you are wrong about the C Class putting the interior of the ATS to shame because it did not. Matter of opinion of course but the ATS has one of the best interior designs in its class regardless of what trim. The BMW and Audi does not come close to it. The C Class has a nice interior also but the only downfall with it is the I-Pad like device sticking out like an eyesore. Not a deal breaker but could cause potential vehicle break-ins.
The C has better materials, better ergonomics, better attention to detail, and far better fit & finish.

I don't like the interior of the Jaguar much also but Jaguar will have a fan base and possible gain conquest sales.
Who are they going to take sales from, exactly? The Germans? Not with an interior like that it won't.

Isn't the mid-cycle refreshment for CTS coming in year or two?

So maybe gap between CTS (if it keeps its name) and new E class won't be so big.

Of course rumors are future CTS (CT5 or CT4?) will grow bigger.

Now regarding engines, rumors are Mercedes E is getting inline 6 so if this is true there can be some problem for competition to achieve NVH advantage here.
I don't have faith in the CTS MCE. Or any Cadillac MCE for that matter. Their MCEs don't improve interior materials or attention to detail. And because of that, I expect the MCE to be very minor.
 
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