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No complaints here on my 6.6 gas and 6-speed transmission. Great as a DD and pulls my 42', 14k 5th wheel just fine. We are getting in a realm in vehicles where automatics are beginning to have "too many" gears. I've had to issues with the transmission or pulling the 5er at all, doesn't hunt for gears and keeps speed fine, whether on rural roads or interstate towing. For what I use the truck for, it's a non-issue. The Duramax I had was a 6-speed and was fine, as was the Ford 6.2 with the 6-speed.
Yes I mean it will work and get the job done, but I don't think you could argue that a 10 speed would do it better.
 
There is no question a ten speed would be better suited at keeping a gas engine in its powerband. Especially important when towing in hills and higher elevation. The option of 4.10's and the ten speed would make this much better suited for HD pickup applications.
 
Yes I mean it will work and get the job done, but I don't think you could argue that a 10 speed would do it better.
In some applications, yes. In mine, no. If I'm towing in mountainous or hilly areas, I lock out the upper gears and keep the RPMs in the 3500-4000 range for the speed I am going. That is the sweet spot for the engine. Even with the 10-speed, I feel locking out gears will still be necessary in certain instances. The biggest advantage of the 10-speed may be urban city, stop and go driving. Rural and highway driving will be negligible.

There is no question a ten speed would be better suited at keeping a gas engine in its powerband. Especially important when towing in hills and higher elevation. The option of 4.10's and the ten speed would make this much better suited for HD pickup applications.
Having the option of 4.10 gears would be a good idea for those that wish to have it, though I'm not real sure on Ford's take rate of 4.10 vs 3.73 in the current 6.2 Super Duty. That being said, the current setup doesn't drop RPMs too much under normal to moderate acceleration and cause the RPMs to dip too low. It's not as quick to upshift, as I was expecting like the 1500s, so the programming is obviously better than the 1500s. Likely due to application and how these trucks are generally used vs the half tons.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Another major trend is the increasing use of gasoline engines in the medium-duty market.

“A major reason for this is that they are simpler than diesel engines — no SCR, EGR, DPF, and DEF fluid. Lower up-front costs, reliable cold-weather startup, and ease of fueling accessibility are just a few factors driving gas-engine adoption,” noted Gehm from SAE International. “Diesel engines appear poised to remain the dominant power source and a subject of R&D efforts for the next decade and beyond.”

Also, according to GM, 61% of the commercial vehicle market is using gasoline engines.
Incredible if you think about it. Medium Duty moving to Gas, GM comes out with an Almost Medium Duty engine.

2021 is looming https://www.worktruckonline.com/341478/the-future-of-medium-duty-truck-engines
 
View attachment 41969

Incredible if you think about it. Medium Duty moving to Gas, GM comes out with an Almost Medium Duty engine.

2021 is looming https://www.worktruckonline.com/341478/the-future-of-medium-duty-truck-engines
I think it's a case of one thing at a time. The GM 6.6L looks to be a great standard gas engine for a HD pickup, and it may show up in the 2021 Silverado 4500 and 5500. GM has just got back into medium duty, it will be a few years before their line is entirely fleshed out. GM admits that there is a strong market for gasoline engines in medium duty, and there are rumors of a larger gas engine and a class 7 truck on the way.

Interesting thing about diesel is I think think with the GHG and other emissions regulations looming on the horizon we will see smaller diesels in medium duty trucks. The 6.7L Powerstroke, 6.6L Duramax, and 6.7L Cummins are not only overkill for HD pickups, but they are also really to big and inefficient for most medium duty trucks. Detroit Diesel's new DD5 and the Isuzu 4HK1 are really all most medium duty users need, and are proving to have more than enough power. I see a lot of the new Isuzu FTR's and Chevy LCF 6500's around me.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
The W Series kind of proved, HP wars are not really necessary in Vocational Applications. (not well accepted though) What was the original W3 a 4 cylinder NA, barely pulled it's self around. But 1 that I sold in 1998 is still running today after starting life as a Lumber Yard truck, and is now a Plow Truck/Dump Body.

The persons behind the Wheel might want HP, the people buying them are more concerned with Pocket Books. Initial Costs and Costs per Mile.

But up in Bus/40,000lb Dump/25,000lb towing. This get to a whole different arena. And "Tree Huggers" are going to rule out Diesel, with all of it's advantages. #1 Advantage of it, is using 25-35% less of it to do the same amount of work.
 
I think it's a case of one thing at a time. The GM 6.6L looks to be a great standard gas engine for a HD pickup, and it may show up in the 2021 Silverado 4500 and 5500. GM has just got back into medium duty, it will be a few years before their line is entirely fleshed out. GM admits that there is a strong market for gasoline engines in medium duty, and there are rumors of a larger gas engine and a class 7 truck on the way.

Interesting thing about diesel is I think think with the GHG and other emissions regulations looming on the horizon we will see smaller diesels in medium duty trucks. The 6.7L Powerstroke, 6.6L Duramax, and 6.7L Cummins are not only overkill for HD pickups, but they are also really to big and inefficient for most medium duty trucks. Detroit Diesel's new DD5 and the Isuzu 4HK1 are really all most medium duty users need, and are proving to have more than enough power. I see a lot of the new Isuzu FTR's and Chevy LCF 6500's around me.
to put it in perspective my old job we had peterbilt day cab tractors that ran a "paccar" rebranded ISB 6.7L to pull full size semi trailers around
and the shop I am at now we have a "fantuzzi" a 80000 LBS DRY weight container lifter that picks up sea containers and has a CUMMINS QSC 8.3L and 5 foot tall tires

I also heard around 30% of school bus orders last year were NOT DIESEL powered and LION ELECTRIC is around 1% - also a LOT more discussions about the V10 / 8.8L PSI motors on the school bus boards ++ a LOT of talk about the NEW 7tree coming

the "BIG" push for Petrol / GASSIUS VS Diesel is NOT "green" as much as "UP-TIME" and with up to 80% of power train down time being for aftertreatment issues now days and EPA "FORCED DERATE" and the threat of doing the school run with kids on board and driving 5 MPH because a sensor ***** the bed

I also know a LOT of Ambo's are being specced in Petrol now days

PS I live in a Country where Diesel is the same price a PETROL and 3/4 + trucks are 99% DIESEL - to actually see Petrol 3/4's on the LOT that are trimmed better then a WORK TRUCK is very rare
 
Needs a 10 speed and 8.1 V8, Needs a bigger screen inside the interior cabin (RAM), need to be able to order everystyle with every grill option like FORD Does day one!
 
Don't think the 6-speed with the new 6.6L HD was a "Boneheaded" decision since many of the sales of gas HD's are to fleets who prioritize initial costs and it reduces potential problems for the 1st year sales of the HD's.

OTOH, going forward GM must offer the 10 Speed with the 6.6L Gas engine and expand the Axle Ratios to fully compete with the Super Duty that offer 3.55, and 4.30 gears along with their new 7.3L Gas Engine. Adding the 10 Speed allows GM to offer 3.55 Gears for better MPG and retain performance and towing/hauling by altering the Transmission Programming that allows transmission to hold lower gears. GM can offer 4.10 ratio and retain nearly the same top gear overall ratio with the 10-speed as the 3.73 provides with the 6-speed (~2.50:1) which retains the highway MPG but allows better towing/hauling performance in lower gears. The 4.10's also permit Larger Diameter Tires to be fitted without performance penalty and without the costs and risks of changing the ratio using aftermarket gears. The 10-speed allows similar advantage if GM would match Ford and offer 4.30 gears.

IF GM does not offer the 10-speed on the 6.6L Gas Engine by the 2022 MY, that would be a "Boneheaded Mistake"

Not sure how GM will react to Ford's 7.3L engine, GM can go up to at a 7.2L HD Gas engine if they produce a "Raised Block" version of the current engine to allow a longer stroke (4.25") and retain the same machining/assembly lines, anything above that will require a new "Medium Block" (like Ford's 7.3L) or a new "Big Block" similar to the 8.1L. Think a lot will depend upon how well the new 7.3L sells in the Super Duty F-250 thru F-450 and Ford's Medium Duty F-450 thru F-650 range.

GM will also need to up the content/features on top level trims, just as they will need to do with the 1500 Trucks which should happen in 2021 or 2022.
 
Always trust user reviews, not magazines and big media companies. Same as movies and TV.
Most people who have the 6.6 gas so far seem to really like it and think its a significant upgrade over the old 6.0L.
Nobody is complaining about the 6 speed transmission except "auto journalists."
I've had my 1500 K2 w/ 5.3L and 6-speed for 4 years, it's been flawless.
Hilarious. Does anyone here actually own one of these trucks? Unlikely.
 
There is no question a ten speed would be better suited at keeping a gas engine in its powerband. Especially important when towing in hills and higher elevation. The option of 4.10's and the ten speed would make this much better suited for HD pickup applications.
Exactly the reason GM has to offer the new 10 Speed with the 6.6L ASAP.

Granted the 6-speed works for many and will no doubt remain in the lineup (same as Ford) for it's lower costs for Fleets, and delaying it allows GM to "Ramp up" production by restricting it the the Duramax for 2020 - both logical reasons for not offering it for the 2020 MY.

What the 10 speed with the 6.6L will do is allow GM to offer a 3.55 Gear (like Ford) on HD2500 SRW models to improve MPG while delivering performance in 1st through 7th like the 3.55 was a 4.00 Gear while adding (3) extra Overdrive Ratios (7th through 9th) since the 6-speed uses a 1.15 to 1 ratio for 6th gear (there is no 1.0 to 1 ratio). With the proper Algorithm to compliment the 10-speed, the 6.6L will perform much better overall and should deliver better MPG doing it.

Other gears (10A vs 6A) get similar advantages with the 3.73 performing like a 4.20, and if offered a 3.90 like a 4.39, and a 4.20 like a 4.62 in 1st through 7th while adding those same (3) overdrive ratios.

Add you are correct about the ratios and where Ford offers far more options that no doubt help sales for HD Truck buyers who know exactly what Ratio they need once they have outfitted their truck with the Tires they will be using and the Tow/Hauling conditions they face in their driving (many will tow/haul on Farms and Ranches (similar to Off Roading) that requires better low speed crawl performance and/or have steep grades to deal with on a regular basis, while others will do most driving on flat highways and require quite different gearing)

GM only offers (1) gear ratio per Engine while Ford offers many for each engine and transmission

GM (2020 MY)
3.73 6.6L Gas
3.42 6.6 TD

Ford (2020 MY)
3.73, 4.30 6.2L with 6A - (2) Ratios
3.73, 4.30 6.2L with 10A - (2) Ratios
3.55, SRW F-250, 3.73, 4.30 7.3L with 10A - (3) Ratios
3.31 3.55 SRW F-250/350 4.10, 4.30 6.7L with 10A - (4) Ratios

GM should consider adding at least (2) Ratios to each engine along with adding a 10-Speed option for 2021

GM (MY 2021)
3.55 SRW 2500,3.73, Add 3.90 or 4.10 6.6L Gas
3.42, 3.55 SRW 2500/3500, Add 3.73, 3.90 or 4.10 6.6 TD
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
I agree with that. If you want to make inroads into Fords domination with HD trucks, you have to figure out why they have it.

At this point, it is mainly a difference in philosophy.
GM tells you what you will get
Ford asks you what you want.
Moving from 13 years of selling GM's at 2 different Dealerships, to selling Fords (well 16 years) at 1 Dealership. All in the same town. Ford's Dominance of the Commercial Market is Mind Blowing. I enjoy the Commercial Side, Building a Built Vehicle to best meet the End User's needs.

This, follows not only to Sales, but Service, Parts, Body Shop, even "Worker's own Rides and Repairs". Our shop always has 1-3 Fleet Vehicles inside with work being done.

GM knows this (well knew of it) Back in the 90's, our Dealership signed up for "Commercial Conquest". GM set up certain Dealers, with extra training, extra Stock, and a Commercial Demo, of our choice, to be equipped as Local Businesses would use, Demo'd 5 Times for a maximum of 15,000 km's, and 3% discount for each written evaluation of that vehicle.

Plow Trucks, Dump Beds, Cutaways, 5 th wheel towers, I set up many and Demo'd them, to try to brake into the market. The worst part was, This happened during the ill fated 6.5L with 1994 Pump Issues, and 1997 Block Cracking Issues. Most Ford Fleet operators yawned about the use, the 7.3L Powerstroke at that time was Way beyond GM's offering, and well Dodge Fleets were ok with inferior trucks because "That thing ain't no Cummins".
 
I agree with that. If you want to make inroads into Fords domination with HD trucks, you have to figure out why they have it.

At this point, it is mainly a difference in philosophy.
GM tells you what you will get
Ford asks you what you want.
Spot on.

Real Truck buyers always know exactly what they want before they buy
They know what Engine they want
They know what Transmission they want
They know what Axle Ratio(s) they want
They know what Drive System (2WD, 4WD/AWD - and what type of 4X4 system)
They know if they want Locking Differentials (R, F & R and if available Center Diff)
They know what Suspension they want
They know what Brakes they want
They know what Side View Mirrors (Towing, Folding, Extending, Heated, etc.) they want
They know what Cab Type they want
They know what Bed Length they want
They know what Bed Style (Stepside - when they were available)
They know what Side Steps/Rock Sliders they want (or none)
They know what Bumpers they want
They know how much Chrome (or not) they want and where
They know what Tire Size the Truck will end up with
They know kind of Tire they want (Off Road, Mud, Higher Load Range, etc.)
They know what Wheels (Size, Type and Material) the Truck will end up with
They know what Ride Height (Raised, Leveled, Slammed, Performance) the Truck will end up with
They know what Tow Hitch (Capacity and type) they want

Newly added features are also defined
They know what Driving/Off Road Assistance they want
They know what/how many Cameras they want and where
They know what Tailgate they want

Severely limiting choices when the leader in the segment offers selections is not a good long term strategy and after the "gotta have the newest truck" sales are satisfied, this will become a major problem.
 
Just as I thought, the Ford F-250 7.3L Gas, 10A with 4.30 gears totally dominated the Chevy 2500 HD with 6.6L Gas, 6A and 3.73 Gears on the IKE Gauntlet.

It wasn't even close (16,000 lb Trailer IKE Gauntlet Results)

Downhill
Silverado HD 10 brake applications
Ford F-250 9 brake applications

Uphill Time
Silverado HD 11 min 53 sec (+3 Min 33 Sec)
Ford F-250 8 min 20 sec

Uphill MPG
Silverado HD 2.4 MPG
Ford F-250 2.2 MPG

Subjective score
Silverado HD 14.0 pts (-8 Points)
Ford F-250 22.0 pts

Ike score
Silverado HD 48.5 pts (-46 Points)
Ford F-250 94.5 pts


It will be interesting to see how the other F-250 TFL has with the 7.3L and 3.55 Gears will do in the same test, but think it too will dominate the Chevy.

That will answer the Gearing question, but not the 6A vs 10A or the 6.6L vs the 7.3L, but I think that GM really has to add the 10 Speed to the 6.6L Gas as at least an option ASAP.
 
Just as I thought, the Ford F-250 7.3L Gas, 10A with 4.30 gears totally dominated the Chevy 2500 HD with 6.6L Gas, 6A and 3.73 Gears on the IKE Gauntlet.

It wasn't even close (16,000 lb Trailer IKE Gauntlet Results)

Downhill
Silverado HD 10 brake applications
Ford F-250 9 brake applications

Uphill Time
Silverado HD 11 min 53 sec (+3 Min 33 Sec)
Ford F-250 8 min 20 sec

Uphill MPG
Silverado HD 2.4 MPG
Ford F-250 2.2 MPG

Subjective score
Silverado HD 14.0 pts (-8 Points)
Ford F-250 22.0 pts

Ike score
Silverado HD 48.5 pts (-46 Points)
Ford F-250 94.5 pts


It will be interesting to see how the other F-250 TFL has with the 7.3L and 3.55 Gears will do in the same test, but think it too will dominate the Chevy.

That will answer the Gearing question, but not the 6A vs 10A or the 6.6L vs the 7.3L, but I think that GM really has to add the 10 Speed to the 6.6L Gas as at least an option ASAP.
I really think Chevrolet hurt the 6.6 gas V8 by not supporting it with a 10L or even an 8 L gearbox
and not following Ford with a choice of 3.73 or 4.3 gears. Those two changes would have made
a huge difference.

Heck, just offer 4.3 gears as an option with the 6L for max towing, doing that allows the truck to better use
the higher gears on the flat so possibly no big disadvantage in terms of fuel economy towing or not.

I like what GM has done with the ironl block to get to 6.6 liters but perhaps take a leaf from aftermarket
with a taller 9.75" deck height siamesed bore unit that allows 4.125 bore and 4.125" stroke with ease.
That gives GM a 7.3 small block to compete head on with Ford and room for a smaller engine below.
 
Just as I thought, the Ford F-250 7.3L Gas, 10A with 4.30 gears totally dominated the Chevy 2500 HD with 6.6L Gas, 6A and 3.73 Gears on the IKE Gauntlet.

It wasn't even close (16,000 lb Trailer IKE Gauntlet Results)

Downhill
Silverado HD 10 brake applications
Ford F-250 9 brake applications

Uphill Time
Silverado HD 11 min 53 sec (+3 Min 33 Sec)
Ford F-250 8 min 20 sec

Uphill MPG
Silverado HD 2.4 MPG
Ford F-250 2.2 MPG

Subjective score
Silverado HD 14.0 pts (-8 Points)
Ford F-250 22.0 pts

Ike score
Silverado HD 48.5 pts (-46 Points)
Ford F-250 94.5 pts


It will be interesting to see how the other F-250 TFL has with the 7.3L and 3.55 Gears will do in the same test, but think it too will dominate the Chevy.

That will answer the Gearing question, but not the 6A vs 10A or the 6.6L vs the 7.3L, but I think that GM really has to add the 10 Speed to the 6.6L Gas as at least an option ASAP.
totally pointless comparison, they aren't competing engines
GM has a new 8+ liter gas engine coming that will compete with fords 7.3
GM's 6.6 gas engine competes with Fords 6.2L gas engine.
Get your facts straight :)
 
totally pointless comparison, they aren't competing engines
GM has a new 8+ liter gas engine coming that will compete with fords 7.3
GM's 6.6 gas engine competes with Fords 6.2L gas engine.
Get your facts straight :)
I disagree and think it's a valid comparison.
Fords largest gas engine vs GMs largest gas engine currently available.

Yeah-but just wait until XXX is just bench racing.
 
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