Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

A thread for those sick of whether Camaro is 200lb lighter model for model...

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

I like the concept of reviving niche models as brands by other brands, but only if they can be done profitably and with adequate differentiation.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

I like the concept of reviving niche models as brands by other brands, but only if they can be done profitably and with adequate differentiation.

I've always been of the opinion that after a suitable amount of time has passed since they deep six'd Pontiac that GM should use the name for a series of limited edition models. Only one model would be on sale at any given moment and once it's limited run, 2-4 years is done it would get replaced with a new model. Firebird, Grand Prix/AM coupe, BONNEVILLE SEDAN ( M5/AMG competitor) and as suggested by MonaroSS sell them through GMC dealers.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Phenomenal looking! I'd buy one in a heartbeat!

Give the aftermarket time, and there will be conversions similar to this available.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Pass... Just leave the dead be. This would be nothing more than a rehash of a rehash and I for one am I tired of rehashed hash.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Trans Am version?

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Trans Am version?

It would take a lot of time to do it properly on such a hood as that, but here is a quickie...

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

MonaroSS,

I can see this as well as "OPEL by Buick" making a comeback for limited edition models
brought over from Europe without having to start another division in NA.

Sold and serviced by a Buick dealer. What a concept.....

Ken

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

I could accept this.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Seems legit....... I'll take the Camaro but my Dad would buy Firebird/Trans-Am

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

This is a really good chop - and it could work since the only exterior changes would be the front and rear clips, headlights, tail lights etc... Interior would need more changes to make it look and feel more Pontiac rather than Chevy but...

A high-power model with a tight suspension steering package - badged as a Trans Am would definitely sell.

The idea of rotating a unique limited edition model every 4-5 years might be good too. I could see a short run GTO or even a Grand Prix (real Grand Prix, not a four-door sedan).

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Sure, why not? I'd like to see a few Pontiacs in BG dealerships, but there are a couple of big problems doing this. Firstly, GM is in need of crossovers, not sports coupes and secondly, the Firebird would compete against the Camaro. The market for sports coupes is small, pretty much monopolized by the Camaro and Mustang; if you add Firebird, it dilutes the Camaro and adds additional expenses.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Sure, why not? I'd like to see a few Pontiacs in BG dealerships, but there are a couple of big problems doing this. Firstly, GM is in need of crossovers, not sports coupes and secondly, the Firebird would compete against the Camaro. The market for sports coupes is small, pretty much monopolized by the Camaro and Mustang; if you add Firebird, it dilutes the Camaro and adds additional expenses.

From 1967 all the way to 2002, GM always had a Camaro companion, which was the Firebird. The Firebird went on to spawn submodels, most notably the "Trans AM". The Firebird has ALWAYS been nothing more than a Camaro with a different nose, a different tail and a slightly different interior, or at least this was the case after GM corporized engines and there was no such thing as a Pontiac big block.

In these 35 years, did the Camaro cannibalize the Firebird, or did the Firebird cannibalize the Camaro? This is the same argument we always see on this forum, that if GM got rid of GMC, there would be more Silverado sales, or that having 3 versions of the Tahoe and Suburban under different names but the same car at the end of the day is non sense. Time has shown us this concept works, HOWEVER it does not work when you sell the same car body under 4 different brands with no difference in between them, as was done in the 80's. To this day, you can tell the Tahoe, Yukon and Escalade are the same car using the same shell but are too different to be able to successfully use one piece out of the other without having to take more with you. So in essesne, you can't take an Escalade fender and mount it on a Yukon without taking the whole nose.

So what's my point?

If a Firebird would cannibalize the Camaro, then the Sierra cannibalizes the Silverado, the Escalade and Yukon cannibalize the Tahoe, the ESV and XL cannibalize the Suburban, and the Chevy Trax cannibalizes the Buick Encore.

The only real problem I see with a Firebird is that it would still have to be under one of the current GM brands for legal purposes. GM still has to give the production car a legal name, a legal VIN, etc similarly to how Toyota sells Scion as a brand, but have Toyota VIN numbers and are legally considered Toyota Scions (for example an insurance would [and does!] write up a Scion xB as a Toyota for make and Scion xB as a model). Another example would be the Ram trucks, which are legally Dodge trucks because they still use Dodge's old VIN mechanism for trucks (xB4 or something to that extent). Now I'm not sure if insurance companies and other entities write em up as Dodge Ram x500s or Ram x500s, omitting the Dodge piece but I do know that Scion is considered a model from Toyota, not a brand despite being able to go to the parts store and ask for parts for a 2010 Scion tC without having to mention Toyota. This would be the tricky part to the ordeal. So they could market a Firebird as a Pontiac, but would end up having a Buick VIN (1G3), and the confusing part would be would it be a 2016 Buick Pontiac Firebird or is it a Pontiac Firebird but legally a Buick Pontiac Firebird. GM does have a history of using model names between divisions (The Safari being a Pontiac before it became a GMC van or Calais being a Cadillac before being used as a model for Olds) and could easily make a Buick Firebird, omitting all Pontiac references but keeping all Firebird legacies, such as the split grille and the Phoenix bird.

I do find it interesting that no one has brought up the idea of bringing back the Riviera as a Camaro twin. This would be more viable financially as the Riviera could be marketed as a luxury coupe (similar to what Ford used to do with the Mercury Cougar)

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Just let the dead stay dead.

This could never happen. Remember the copywrites went with everything else.

The current owners would sue in a heartbeat.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Just let the dead stay dead.

This could never happen. Remember the copywrites went with everything else.

The current owners would sue in a heartbeat.

Last I knew, GM actually retained the rights to the Pontiac brand name. Others wished to purchase it but GM still makes $ selling Pontiac shirts, models, signs, parts, etc, etc.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

I don't buy the "Pontiac by Buick" tack. Poncho is crossed off the list.

But would be fascinating to see a Buick "f body"

Why not make a Riviera F body? Could be distinguished by using all turbo engines. Just change the front and rear fascias and use different wheels.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

I don't buy the "Pontiac by Buick" tack. Poncho is crossed off the list.

But would be fascinating to see a Buick "f body"

Why not make a Riviera F body? Could be distinguished by using all turbo engines. Just change the front and rear fascias and use different wheels.

From 1967 all the way to 2002, GM always had a Camaro companion, which was the Firebird. The Firebird went on to spawn submodels, most notably the "Trans AM". The Firebird has ALWAYS been nothing more than a Camaro with a different nose, a different tail and a slightly different interior, or at least this was the case after GM corporized engines and there was no such thing as a Pontiac big block.

In these 35 years, did the Camaro cannibalize the Firebird, or did the Firebird cannibalize the Camaro? This is the same argument we always see on this forum, that if GM got rid of GMC, there would be more Silverado sales, or that having 3 versions of the Tahoe and Suburban under different names but the same car at the end of the day is non sense. Time has shown us this concept works, HOWEVER it does not work when you sell the same car body under 4 different brands with no difference in between them, as was done in the 80's. To this day, you can tell the Tahoe, Yukon and Escalade are the same car using the same shell but are too different to be able to successfully use one piece out of the other without having to take more with you. So in essesne, you can't take an Escalade fender and mount it on a Yukon without taking the whole nose.

So what's my point?

If a Firebird would cannibalize the Camaro, then the Sierra cannibalizes the Silverado, the Escalade and Yukon cannibalize the Tahoe, the ESV and XL cannibalize the Suburban, and the Chevy Trax cannibalizes the Buick Encore.

The only real problem I see with a Firebird is that it would still have to be under one of the current GM brands for legal purposes. GM still has to give the production car a legal name, a legal VIN, etc similarly to how Toyota sells Scion as a brand, but have Toyota VIN numbers and are legally considered Toyota Scions (for example an insurance would [and does!] write up a Scion xB as a Toyota for make and Scion xB as a model). Another example would be the Ram trucks, which are legally Dodge trucks because they still use Dodge's old VIN mechanism for trucks (xB4 or something to that extent). Now I'm not sure if insurance companies and other entities write em up as Dodge Ram x500s or Ram x500s, omitting the Dodge piece but I do know that Scion is considered a model from Toyota, not a brand despite being able to go to the parts store and ask for parts for a 2010 Scion tC without having to mention Toyota. This would be the tricky part to the ordeal. So they could market a Firebird as a Pontiac, but would end up having a Buick VIN (1G3), and the confusing part would be would it be a 2016 Buick Pontiac Firebird or is it a Pontiac Firebird but legally a Buick Pontiac Firebird. GM does have a history of using model names between divisions (The Safari being a Pontiac before it became a GMC van or Calais being a Cadillac before being used as a model for Olds) and could easily make a Buick Firebird, omitting all Pontiac references but keeping all Firebird legacies, such as the split grille and the Phoenix bird.

I do find it interesting that no one has brought up the idea of bringing back the Riviera as a Camaro twin. This would be more viable financially as the Riviera could be marketed as a luxury coupe (similar to what Ford used to do with the Mercury Cougar)

The first post is the answer to the second. I think this is an interesting idea. I would love to see a Buick Riviera type of coupe off of this platform since Pontiac is gone. I would also like to see the specialty items/limited run things done and marketed by the other brands. BTW these are nice chops, I like them and it shows that if there was a will, a REAL will that there would be a way.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

I'm on the fence on this. A bit of thought experiment: how would you feel about this if it wasn't a Pontiac? Or a Firebird, for that matter? What if it was just a sporty coupe to be sold through Buick/GMC stores? For me, at that point, a lot of my initial objections float away.

I like Pontiacs and Firebirds. To me, this is a Camaro with a split nose. It isn't really a Firebird and it isn't a Pontiac, at least not in the traditional sense. There is something inauthentic about the whole exercise that makes me wonder if it could backfire, Chevy SSR-style.

I do feel differently about it if GM created a specialty subbrand for cars like this. Call it GM Heritage (GM-H) and do limited runs of heritage-themed cars. Take this one a little farther and offer heritage colors and interior seat patterns and such. Much lime VW has done with special editions of the Beetle. Maybe as a GM-H Firebird, I could get behind it.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

"Pontiac Firebird by Buick"? Yuck.

I'm on the fence on this. A bit of thought experiment: how would you feel about this if it wasn't a Pontiac? Or a Firebird, for that matter? What if it was just a sporty coupe to be sold through Buick/GMC stores? For me, at that point, a lot of my initial objections float away.
...
I do feel differently about it if GM created a specialty subbrand for cars like this. Call it GM Heritage (GM-H) and do limited runs of heritage-themed cars. Take this one a little farther and offer heritage colors and interior seat patterns and such. Much lime VW has done with special editions of the Beetle. Maybe as a GM-H Firebird, I could get behind it.

I like the GM-H idea, as a specialty sub-brand.
Should probably be a sub brand of GMC, since that's the most "nondescript". (GMC used to stand for General Motors Corporation. I have to guess that it still does. That encompasses everything.)
Heck... if they do that, it leaves the door open to lots of "heritage" models. Firebird by GMC - or just GM. Cutlass W30 by GM... See where they could go with this? It would allow the reintroduction of once popular models without standing up an entire brand, again.
If they wanted to do it right, they would have an engineering team that did nothing but tweak the ergonomics and handling of the specialty models to give them the "flavor" of the originals.

To the design of the car... I like it. Much better than the 5th gen Trans Am "knockoffs".
The scooped beltline is kind of subtle. I didn't even notice it at first, but I like it. A lot.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

I think the more appropriate question is what would a Grand National look like

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

I think the more appropriate question is what would a Grand National look like

This, more important than beating a dead horse.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Lately there seems to be a brewing ground swell of interest in reviving Pontiac on this site and others. To be honest, I know it will never happen. GM will never answer the call that Dodge seems to be doing so well (Affordable RWD/AWD Performance for the masses). I'd put a deposit down tomorrow if I knew I could get a Firebird. I love the chop. I guess Trans Am Depot will be getting my money and not GM... at least not directly or as profitably.

 

Re: OpEd Why no Firebird?

Looks beautiful, better than the Camaro! Though I don't think Buick or GMC needs a sports car, a true sport car or muscle car doesn't fit with either make.

Though it would be kind of neat if GM did make a boutique brand with very limited showrooms and models to make some high dollar modern Firebirds like this and other retired names and brands from the past. These cars would be all about style and exclusivity and for many less about power and handling.

 

I NEVER AGREE W/ MONARO SS
BUT THIS!!!!!!!!
GENIUS!!!!

I love it!!!!!!!!

 

Well I guess even a broken clock can be right twice a day...Thanks

 

I realize this is a complex strategic concept that is hard to grasp but Pontiac is gone, forever! It's not just that GM leadership wanted to keep Pontiac and someone put a gun to their head and made them kill it...GM needed and wanted to rationalize its divisional footprint and Pontiac was one of the logical divisions to eliminate. The sooner you accept this reality the sooner you can focus your energy on chops that may make sense for the New GM. Endlessly digging that dirt up, hauling that coffin to the surface, opening it and trying to reanimate Pontiac is not just a lot of work, it's utterly pointless.

 

Nobody is saying GM should bring back Pontiac.

So how does this impact GM's Divisional footprint? It doesn't. End of story.

In effect it would be just another Buick that had the model name Pontiac Firebird or Pontiac Trans Am.

I'm sure half the people never read the article and just look at the pictures....

 

One giant sized advantage of having a "Camaro by another name" is the insurance issue.

From what I've been told by Allstate agents, the insurance rates are based on the nameplate's overall accident history. So that's why some sports cars like Miata aren't really that expensive (secretary's car), but even a base Camaro or Mustang is murder - and with a surprisingly small difference between V8 and V6. When I had my Dodge Challenger in 2010, it was very cheap to insure, because it was considered a kind of offshoot of the Charger SE sedan - but that might have changed in the intervening years as the Challenger has probably been involved in a higher rate of crashes than Charger SEs.

So if a Riviera F car debuted, it might be considered like a '99 Riv - or based off the current Lacrosse either of which I'm sure has a very low crash/accident rate.

Also might consider naming it Skylark - when it debuted as a fancy pants Buick special 2dr 'personal car,' it was supposed to an almost-T-Bird - and was priced surprisingly high.

Skyhawk was in some sense the original Buick 'pony car' and that would be highly appropriate as well.

 

Just the doors alone with the dip in them changes the look and personality of the car! So curvy and sexy, this I want to happen! A slight change in the shape of the C pillar would bring it home! Any chance you could do that so I can use this as my wall paper?

 

No Pontiac by Buick. EVER.


Why not import it to AU as a "Monaro by Cheverolet"?

 

Well at least YOU read the article.....

And now so can some more people given you reposted it in it's entirety....

 

Because Pontiac as a Brand is dead, let it rest in peace!

Buick Pontiac Firebird???? Seriously?

and i'm guessing the aftermarket hack artists will figure out a way to *******ize the new Camaro and build a Firebird off it

 

Because pontiac as a Brand is dead, let it rest in peace!

Buick Pontiac Firebird???? Seriously?

and i'm guessing the aftermarket hack artists will figure out a way to *******ize the new Camaro and build a Firebird off it

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't a lot of Dealers act as Buick Pontiac GMC Dealers before Pontiac got axed anyway. So it was OK back then to walk into a Dealership showroom and see a GMC truck beside a Buick sedan beside a Pontiac Firebird - but now it would not be OK? Is that what you are saying?

 

Waste of capital, manpower, and time. Sorry, I think it's a stupid idea in todays world.

 

Like doing a new chassis to save 60kg (body in white), on an overall smaller car.

Not to mention throwing money in the black hole that is Cadillac.

 

That Trans Am, though...:dro:

 

With that edited front end, it look also a bit like a 1968-69 GTO.

These photoshopped pics might give some ideas to Kevin Morgan. http://www.firebirdgallery.com/Kevin_Morgan_Concepts.htm

 

That's a web-site full of homely. I wish people would just stop this kind of madness.

As much as I love Firebirds,Formulas & Tran Ams I do not wish it to be brought back based off the Camaro's current design.

Basing the Firebird off the Camaro (5th or 6th gen) would just become 2 cars that I would not buy instead of one and I am totally in this market.

I wonder if this in 1LE and ZL1 dress will make this car more desirable to my eyes?. The current ones (1LE & ZL1) almost made the 5th gen a buy for me,there we just certain things about its styling I couldn't get past.