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Well most people in the market for this type of vehicle don't go anywhere near Wheels magazine, either do I for that matter, so it won't make a difference what they say. "Royalauto" and similar motoring club magazines reports will be more important to its sales.
 
Meh the snobs can not like it but if it's as solid as BBDOS has said it will do well for Holden

Thats all that really matters not snob value
The problem for the Barina isn't going to be "snob value", it's going to be much better competitors. And I think that in the current market, some people are willing to pay more for the better vehicle. Even in the light car class. And with this class bordering on saturation level, there will be deals to be had.

The Polo is expensive for what you get, it's running on badge value and latest technology. Unfortunately (or fortunately for VW) their reliability issues aren't yet mainstream knowledge.
 
Never underestimate Holdens best asset

The name Holden on the rump of the car

People will buy it because it's a Holden - thats not badge snobbery but quite the opposite

Lots of people said the Cruze wouldnt sell either because it was slower and not as ecconomical as some - have a look at it now , and it was selling well before the series 2 upgrades

Make a solid car that impresses when you drive it and you will get sales , not from the brochure but from bums in seats
 
You're right and I've never denied that the Barina will sell well, but I think that GM has undercooked the Barina. They should have spent some money on a new small displacement engine for all markets. Instead they have a 1.2L, 1.4L (NA), 1.4LT, 1.6L, 1.8L and a 1.3L Diesel.

I think Holden may have also missed the boat on the 1 model only range. Some people (like myself) want to downsize to a small, fuel efficient car but not miss out on the luxuries we had before. Things like climate control, leather trim, proximity keys, larger alloys, etc are selling points that Holden doesn't yet cater for with the Barina. Maybe later??

I also think the Cruze did so well because it was the right car at the right time. People were down sizing. There wasn't much in the way of fresh competition at the time of its release and it was value for money. It doesn't change the fact that the 1.8 is a dog of an engine and most of us wouldn't touch it with a 10ft pole.
 
What do you expect exactly? A Mercedes for $16K? I wouldn't give it an A - but I wouldn't give the Polo that they gushed over a B, either! Let me tell you, it's got a laggy, slow motor and as a result, a gearbox that behaves worse than any GM auto I've been in. And it's ride/handling is not up to the Barina.

That's what I call a tough crowd! It's 'up with the best' but it's a C?

Even setting aside the innaccuracies like 16" wheels (they're 15"), what about this clanger:
Holden are selling an average car with old tech at the cheapest price. No news here.

In terms of the 16" wheels. Typo. We all make mistakes.



It's the same bloody shifter! It's the same as the shifter in every Cruze (three, four?) and now two Barina manuals I've driven - and it feels exactly the bloody same!
It's my understanding that the Barina has a 5 speed manual and the iTi Cruze (they were comparing it with) has a 6 speed manual.

Sorry, this just reeks of either A) default 'it's a Barina, so it's crap' mode or B) sour grapes because they wanted the 1.4.
It didn't read that way to me at all. And who doesn't want the 1.4T? It's a vastly better engine.


And incidently, I bet if your drove your Swift at 100km/h on a freeway it would probably not get it's best economy, either. Because it's most economical speed is almost certainly about 75-80 km/h. All these cars get better consumption on outer-urban arterials than freeways, because that's where their power and torque is. Little hatches aren't an ideal shape for economy, and the engines are just winding over too hard.
You're right. I get 700kms out of the 42L tank on the highway. 650 - 700klms in the city. I'm not complaining at all.


Agree 100% So then, if it feels secure and well-planted and steering responds faithfully, how can they say this?

How exactly does that work? Maybe they need to recallibrate their SOTP? Maybe they just couldn't bring themselves to accept it actually worked as good as it does? Maybe they just had this niggling doubt it would turn around and bite them?
It's seem perfectly reasonable that a car can point where you want it to but not have great steering feel. It's not mutually exclusive.


Good if they'd nominate which ones - because I've haven't read a single review of a sub-compact without that qualification. It's not the Polo - been in that, it's just as jiggly if not moreso, because of it's narrower track.
I don't know I haven't driven a Barina. But I have driven a Fiesta, Polo and Swift. The Fiesta has one of the best sorted suspension settings available. The Polo is stiffer and slightly jerky with the DSG. Plus far too expensive. My car can feel the bumps but I have 16" wheels and it's not intrusive. I'd say they've probably got our number on test drives of the competition.

So the points of contention are, it's got a crap shifter, a gauge pod they acknowledged 'worked' but they just didn't like the look of - saved them complaining about a boring 'me-too' setup I suppose; and an engine they thought was subpar due to a huge flatspot just off coast. No other review I've read has complained about that. It is not my experience on the two I drove on test, or the two I've driven since. That's four different cars. A silver, black, blue and grey one. Two autos, two manuals. If they did have a fuel problem it would also explain the noisiness and roughness - again, not my experience. It is a little motored-car so it will be buzzier and require more frequent shifts. But it isn't Sam Malone in that.
Another review:
Carpoint said:
First gear in the manual feels too tall so even when you nail the throttle from standstill the Holden city car accelerates sluggishly. The engine also felt lumpy and rough at anything below 3000rpm.
I'd agree that the ratios of the fivespeed are wide, and take some driving around to go quick. The auto feels and is quicker for most people once rolling - it's got closer ratios and lower and higher. I'd like to see the sixspeed for that reason. But most targetted buyers will never notice any of the complaints of Go Auto.

They will notice this bit:
Directly followed by:
GoAuto said:
However, is that enough? The Barina’s talents may have catapulted it from bottom rung to perhaps a top five spot four years ago, but today, as the light-car segment continues to evolve, there are better options out there that drive and feel better.

So it is with a sigh, and words of encouragement tinged with disappointment, that the latest little Holden is handed a worthy ‘C’. The truth is, the Barina must try harder
^^the bit in bold is what I'm saying to Holden about the Barina.
 
Discussion starter · #30 · (Edited)
Holden are selling an average car with old tech at the cheapest price. No news here.

In terms of the 16" wheels. Typo. We all make mistakes.

It's my understanding that the Barina has a 5 speed manual and the iTi Cruze (they were comparing it with) has a 6 speed manual.

It didn't read that way to me at all. And who doesn't want the 1.4T? It's a vastly better engine.

You're right. I get 700kms out of the 42L tank on the highway. 650 - 700klms in the city. I'm not complaining at all.

It's seem perfectly reasonable that a car can point where you want it to but not have great steering feel. It's not mutually exclusive.

I don't know I haven't driven a Barina. But I have driven a Fiesta, Polo and Swift. The Fiesta has one of the best sorted suspension settings available. The Polo is stiffer and slightly jerky with the DSG. Plus far too expensive. My car can feel the bumps but I have 16" wheels and it's not intrusive. I'd say they've probably got our number on test drives of the competition.

^^the bit in bold is what I'm saying to Holden about the Barina.
Which is right next to the bit where they said content and price brought it back into the equation. It's always the way. A base, steel-wheel, safety-pack optional Fiesta starts at nearly $2000 more - despite coming from Thailand. Sure, it's got a super-duper DSG - which obviously costs a mint.

A determined enthusiast I think are not likely looking in this class. Others might look at the tiny back seats, unfinished hatch area, hand-painted seat backs, non-reach-adjustable steering and lack of standard and especially safety features and question why it's so much more expensive.

Carsguide's complaint was about a rubbery shifter that had to be stirred like a pot - it is the same unit in all four-cylinder manual models, and feels the same attached to five or six gears. It has the same throws and the same effort. They can complain about the number of gears, but if the Barina has a dodgy shifter, so does the SRi Cruze they praised as having a world-class driveline, implying it did not have this issue, in the very next sentence.

I'd want the 1.4T, too. But you aren't going to get that, plus kit like electric steering, sixspeed trans, bigger brakes and the better body kit and knick-knacks that will have to go with it for $16K. Judging by the price diff in the Cruze, it's a $3000-4000 package for the cosmetics and driveline. Just as an option on the CD, it's $1250 for the engine, electric steering, Watts link and sixspeed. That has a large proportion of SRis being sold to support it as a kit of parts. In the Barina, not so. Holden builds the SRi Cruze here, and imports the 1.4 bits direct from Europe. Not so the Barina. To get a relative handful of 1.4s imported to Korea and integrated - along with a special body kit and other parts may make it unviable pricewise. No-one can afford to give these bits away.

Because you might sell 1 in 10, or 1 in 20 like that each unit is going to cost you more to make.

I think an SRi Barina would sell in dozens a month, if the car sells 500-1000 a month - $20K is a lot of dosh for a little car. It might work out OK. But it might not - Holden sold a CDX Barina with the Astra 1800 off the Opel XC Corsa-Barina, and it had leather, big alloys and sticky rubber, better sound system, etc, etc, etc - a friend of mine bought one on runout for almost nothing. They RRPed about $23K +ORC. It was a rocket-powered rollerskate and with no LSD, a barely-controllable missile and a lot of fun. The carmags loved it. No-one bought them.

I'd certainly like to drive it, and I'm sure Wheels et al will salivate at it - but whether it is a commercial success is another matter.

And yep, first is tall. If you can't drive - get the auto. I found it child's play to manouevre. I stalled it I think once, hitting a parking hump while u-turning. The motor - IMO, YMMV - was drivable, smooth, good, not afraid to rev. I don't mind motors that are rortier but I'd dispute the Barina motor is especially unpleasant - unless all it's competitors are like sewing machines. The Polo DSG is a jerky, stop-starter that is not smooth, or especially quick.

The revhead in me would like it to have a six speed box, but OTOH, it don't really make that much difference to the people who will buy it - not for the target demographic who won't spend much time on highways. A lot of them would rather pocket the cost difference in loose change.

The UK reviews are of a 1.2 and 1.4. They'd probably think the 1.6 (which comes from the UK Astra) is a rocketship.

So much for the Astra selling in Australia if it has this engine/trans and is heavier, then......
 
It happens to be penned by a Czech thirteen-year Holden Design veteran; outposted to Korea. It is the most current snapshot of GM design language.
Then why does it look very Korean?
 
I'm glad you like the Barina Mark. It is definitely a well needed step up from the TK.

I am concerned by all the press reports though. The Wheels article was very scathing and in the same issue they are very positive about the new Cruze hatch.

GoAuto also seems to be very fair with their reviews and yet they found the Barina to be left wanting.

90% of the criticism is aimed at the engine and manual transmission. While the opposition has their complete package sorted it's a shame to see the newest and one of the biggest names to enter the fray as having a big handicap in terms of fuel economy and drivability.

If only they had used the manual box and 1.4 (perhaps without turbo and with DI), they would have had a truly category leading product.

Last time I bought a car in this segment the rebadged Kalos had just been launched so it wasn't even a consideration. I had to give Suzuki my money. I had hoped to replace my Swift with a competitive Barina, but unless they bring out an SRi at a reasonable price it looks like VW or Ford will get my money when the time comes.

I'm not ready yet, so maybe an SRi will come out before then.
 
Discussion starter · #34 · (Edited)
I'm glad you like the Barina Mark. It is definitely a well needed step up from the TK.

I am concerned by all the press reports though. The Wheels article was very scathing and in the same issue they are very positive about the new Cruze hatch.

GoAuto also seems to be very fair with their reviews and yet they found the Barina to be left wanting.

90% of the criticism is aimed at the engine and manual transmission. While the opposition has their complete package sorted it's a shame to see the newest and one of the biggest names to enter the fray as having a big handicap in terms of fuel economy and drivability.

If only they had used the manual box and 1.4 (perhaps without turbo and with DI), they would have had a truly category leading product.

Last time I bought a car in this segment the rebadged Kalos had just been launched so it wasn't even a consideration. I had to give Suzuki my money. I had hoped to replace my Swift with a competitive Barina, but unless they bring out an SRi at a reasonable price it looks like VW or Ford will get my money when the time comes.

I'm not ready yet, so maybe an SRi will come out before then.
I wouldn't buy a Polo - having been in two - sorry, they are not 'together' like the Golf is. $450 for a standard service.

The 1.4 without the turbo would be even slower. It doesn't have DI. It is of the same design family as the 1.6, so whatever problems the 1.6 has, so likely does it. In fact, it's undersquare (basically a stroked/bored 1000/1200), so unturbo'd is likely to be even less of a revver.

Go drive it yourself, make up your own mind. I found it to be a smooth, competent car - especially in that space. If you want a performance small car, barking up the wrong tree. Sensible, safe, well-made, well-equipped and sufficient for task - spot on.

And fun to drive . Not so say, it can't be improved. Even if it Wheels awarded it last place, does not mean it is a bad car. And the value thing, packed with stuff that will cost you thouands more in one of the others. I'd rather it was a bit heavier and had six airbags and 5-star ANCAP rating.

I went and read the Wheels test. They gave the Barina 6 out of 10. That's fair enough. I'd give it 3.5 out of 5 - that's 7 out of 10. They also said - at lower speeds, it has impressive sound suppression and smoothness - ditto. They also said it's roomy, and extremely well- equipped regardless of price. Double ditto. If you floor it at 1500 rpm, it doesn't so much have a flat spot as little response. But so would any car in that class. Once it's over 2,000 rpm, it's more willing. It may still feel slow compared to the other because of higher mass. Fair enough.

Where I take issue is, they compared it to cars which cost $3-4,000 more. Which have less equipment, but because they were quicker or had a more direct steering feel - even where this co-incided with an inferior ride, they scored them higher. The problem is, for every very expensive Si Kia sells, they are going to sell 10 base model 1.4s, which are not anything like the car that beat the Barina in this comparison. Probably same with some of the others. Try getting a Si, even though it isn't very fast on Kia's own published figures registered and insured as a probationary driver. If Qld won't let P-platers drive a turbo 1.4 Cruze, they aren't going to let them touch a more powerful but lighter car with a bigger engine!

A Fabia owner is likely to discover they own an expensive orphan when they go to trade it. VW doesn't treat owners very good under warranty - how are they going to treat owners of a nothing, value brand? The trade will hate these cars and VW dealers will make mincement of owners.

The 3,400 rpm at 100 km/h is just plain wrong. It leads me to suspect they drove this car a minimal distance with a fair amount of prejudice; because there's no SRi model like everyone was anticipating. Like Drive admitted they gave the Omega VE a worse rating than it really deserved, and artificially-inflated the very ordinary Aurion, because Holden dared sell a car with a spare as an option, and a four-speed auto!

In the auto, at a real (verified by GPS) 100 or 104 indicated it's 2300 rpm - that's 100 rpm more than the missus' 118TSI Golf - which is why it sometimes shifts down on hills (as does the 118!). In the manual, it's about 2900. Definitely below 3, 000. If you push it to 110, the manual starts to sound busy. But the average owner is not going to use it for this - if they were, I'd suggest another car.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like a SRi Barina - I would. But it is going to be a $19-20K car - before onroads. That means, like the Si RIo it is going to be 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 sales.

Maybe Holden should 'do a Kia' and bring out an SRi - just to cynically win comparos. Then sell bucketloads of standard models to people who think they're 'great' because they 'win'!
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Then why does it look very Korean?
Because - and here's news for you - GM Korea is part of the global GM empire. It was leadhouse for the car geographically. Not the sole designer. GM has a global language which it's designer 'interpret' according to what car it is going on. And the Barina with the turretted bonnet and flanked guards with sloping side sculpturing is an iteration of the same language that provided the Volt, Cruze and will provide the Malibu. And Impala. Don't like 'em either - well, you aren't going to like much that GM is going to trot out.

And just as the Camaro was styled by a Korean-American, the Barina/Sonic/Aveo was designed by a Czech-Australian.
 
I wouldn't buy a Polo - having been in two - sorry, they are not 'together' like the Golf is. $450 for a standard service.

The 1.4 without the turbo would be even slower. It doesn't have DI. It is of the same design family as the 1.6, so whatever problems the 1.6 has, so likely does it. In fact, it's undersquare (basically a stroked/bored 1000/1200), so unturbo'd is likely to be even less of a revver.

Go drive it yourself, make up your own mind. I found it to be a smooth, competent car - especially in that space. If you want a performance small car, barking up the wrong tree. Sensible, safe, well-made, well-equipped and sufficient for task - spot on.

And fun to drive . Not so say, it can't be improved. Even if it Wheels awarded it last place, does not mean it is a bad car. And the value thing, packed with stuff that will cost you thouands more in one of the others. I'd rather it was a bit heavier and had six airbags and 5-star ANCAP rating.

I went and read the Wheels test. They gave the Barina 6 out of 10. That's fair enough. I'd give it 3.5 out of 5 - that's 7 out of 10. They also said - at lower speeds, it has impressive sound suppression and smoothness - ditto. They also said it's roomy, and extremely well- equipped regardless of price. Double ditto. If you floor it at 1500 rpm, it doesn't so much have a flat spot as little response. But so would any car in that class. Once it's over 2,000 rpm, it's more willing. It may still feel slow compared to the other because of higher mass. Fair enough.

Where I take issue is, they compared it to cars which cost $3-4,000 more. Which have less equipment, but because they were quicker or had a more direct steering feel - even where this co-incided with an inferior ride, they scored them higher. The problem is, for every very expensive Si Kia sells, they are going to sell 10 base model 1.4s, which are not anything like the car that beat the Barina in this comparison. Probably same with some of the others. Try getting a Si, even though it isn't very fast on Kia's own published figures registered and insured as a probationary driver. If Qld won't let P-platers drive a turbo 1.4 Cruze, they aren't going to let them touch a more powerful but lighter car with a bigger engine!

A Fabia owner is likely to discover they own an expensive orphan when they go to trade it. VW doesn't treat owners very good under warranty - how are they going to treat owners of a nothing, value brand? The trade will hate these cars and VW dealers will make mincement of owners.

The 3,400 rpm at 100 km/h is just plain wrong. It leads me to suspect they drove this car a minimal distance with a fair amount of prejudice; because there's no SRi model like everyone was anticipating. Like Drive admitted they gave the Omega VE a worse rating than it really deserved, and artificially-inflated the very ordinary Aurion, because Holden dared sell a car with a spare as an option, and a four-speed auto!

In the auto, at a real (verified by GPS) 100 or 104 indicated it's 2300 rpm - that's 100 rpm more than the missus' 118TSI Golf - which is why it sometimes shifts down on hills (as does the 118!). In the manual, it's about 2900. Definitely below 3, 000. If you push it to 110, the manual starts to sound busy. But the average owner is not going to use it for this - if they were, I'd suggest another car.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like a SRi Barina - I would. But it is going to be a $19-20K car - before onroads. That means, like the Si RIo it is going to be 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 sales.

Maybe Holden should 'do a Kia' and bring out an SRi - just to cynically win comparos. Then sell bucketloads of standard models to people who think they're 'great' because they 'win'!
You seem to be taking the criticism of the Barina way too personally.

I've just read the Wheels article as well. It seems to me that price was taken into consideration for all vehicles as well as standard gear. In fact I think that's the only reason the Barina got a 6/10. Bear in mind that price is also the reason that the Fabia didn't win.

I also feel that you probably can't wish for a more comprehensive review of these cars. All tested at the same time, multiple drivers, all manual transmissions and the specifications seemed to be all on par as well. To claim 'prejudice' is a little petty as the previous favourite the Mazda2 only came in 7th place. The Barina just didn't rate in the drive category. It was the slowest and heaviest car plus they didn't rate its ride qualities. They also identified the flat spots in the rev range like the other reviews I've pointed to.

They also mentioned that "This test created plenty of debate and opinions changed more than once. The only easy and unaminous decision was Barina is last place"

While I also think the Polo is too expensive, the DSG a tad jerky at low speeds and I have concerns about reliability and ongoing cost. I couldn't fault the power of the engine and the ride (it was euro stiff - better for handling than outright comfort). The interior was also brilliantly put together. I feels like an expensive car.
 
I just read the Wheels Comparo as well - they were all over the Barina but missed the most important thing about it IMO

It's 3 grand cheaper

That should keep it as a good seller , most buyers could'nt give a rats about the car being a little slower - in fact most of them would most likely attribute that to it being more ecconomical even if its not

At any rate 3 grand buys lots of fuel when there's only a poofteenth in it

They can fall in love with the VW all they want - i'd never own one based on servicing alone

And thats the thing - these guys have them for a few hours at most they don't have to foot the bill when the DSG implodes or a set of brake pads costs more than a full transmission service

At that i'd look at the Barina and maybe the Hyundai if i were buying , the lion in me would go for the Barina :D
 
Discussion starter · #38 · (Edited)
A comprehensive test of a city car is take it to the drag strip? How about taking it to - the city! That's a revolutionary thought. Actually drive it to work, go shopping. And pay for a service, insurance, loan payments, fuel costs out of a budget.

Because the prime reason for buying in this class is low entry cost - which the Barina is going to ace. Especially when you have to load more expensive competitors with options to get halfway to it's standard features.

I cannot reconcile the comments about harshness and roughness - and did not experience this 'flat spot' stuff at all. Slower - sure. The engine isn't a turbine, but it's not a cement mixer. Not so the Barina - I often restarted it twice, the engine idles so smoothly! If you want an auto, you have a choice between the DSG of the Fiesta or Polo which takes you over $20K or the fourspeeds of the other cars. I would not pick a DSG, based on the missus' Golf. I don't care if it's worth 1L/100km. You want to talk NVH, at low speeds the grumbling of the engine/trans with it's early upchange will see us get rid of this car not long out of warranty. I just don't trust it lugging the engine or hammering the input shaft bearing and I don't like the horror stories of replacement cost.

To get the 20% better economy in the Polo, you have to spend 20% more to buy it (coupled with extra interest on finance), pay 20% more for 98 RON, 50% more for 504/507 oil - which based on the missus' Golf I'd expect it to use a significant quantity being boosted - and 100% more for scheduled servicing, which will still be carried out by third year apprentices. Then there's depreciation off-warranty, which is guaranteed to be higher.

Don't even get into insurance or parts cost.....
 
Meh. It's seem we'll have to agree to disagree. But I do trust the experience of the Wheels journos. There are some common themes being highlighted by other sources regarding the Barina's drivetrain. Too many have said the same things.

I don't see how you can say they missed the fact it's $3k cheaper. They made a big deal of it in the second last paragraph. But that taken into consideration, the car still came last. And there were another 8 cars between it and the VW. Plenty for shoppers to compare against and some good prices too. The base Fiesta is going for $16490 at the moment, underselling even the Barina.

Nowhere was is said that the test was limited to a test track.
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
Meh. It's seem we'll have to agree to disagree. But I do trust the experience of the Wheels journos. There are some common themes being highlighted by other sources regarding the Barina's drivetrain. Too many have said the same things.

I don't see how you can say they missed the fact it's $3k cheaper. They made a big deal of it in the second last paragraph. But that taken into consideration, the car still came last. And there were another 8 cars between it and the VW. Plenty for shoppers to compare against and some good prices too. The base Fiesta is going for $16490 at the moment, underselling even the Barina.

Nowhere was is said that the test was limited to a test track.
To get it with alloys and safety pack to bring it to 6 airbags, extra $1850. No cruise control even as an option. No USB input. No power rear windows. No power mirrors. No telescoping steering wheel.

Barina is $16,990 driveaway everywhere. If you are good at dealing, I bet you can score a better price than that, easily.
 
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