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Environmental Lift of Battery Cars Is Limited

999 views 10 replies 8 participants last post by  eurohazard  
#1 ·
Environmental Lift of Battery Cars Is Limited
Wall Street Journal
October 18, 2010
by Mike Ramsey

Electric cars, advocates say, are harbingers of a green, emission-free future, helping cut greenhouse gases and smog. Yet the environmental benefits of electric vehicles will be limited for years because most will be recharged by electricity produced by coal- and gas-fired power plants.

That means the ecological gain from driving an all-electric car—and putting up with its high cost, recharging time and limited driving range—likely won't be much greater than driving a hybrid gas-electric vehicle such as the Toyota Motor Corp. Prius, which keeps going as long as the gas tank is filled, experts say.

People who drive a hybrid or all-electric vehicle both will cut greenhouse gas emissions by 30% when compared with a traditional internal combustion engine in most areas of the U.S., according to separate studies by the Department of Energy's Argonne National Research Center and the Electric Power Research Institute, which is funded in part by the power industry.

This so-called wells-to-wheels analysis, which looks at the carbon footprint of plug-in cars, comes into play as the Environmental Protection Agency is considering new fuel-economy and pollution window stickers for automobiles.

The first draft of new rules regarding how auto makers will advertise fuel economy leaves out the broader "carbon footprint" of an electric car, so it gives electrics top marks for environmental impact. But the agency is holding hearings on the matter and could broaden the carbon disclosure to the detriment of electric vehicles, said Cathy Milbourn, an EPA spokeswoman.

The allure of electric vehicles, in part, is their ability to curb use of fossil fuels. But about two-thirds of the country's electricity comes from coal-fired or natural-gas-fed power plants, which spew out pollutants including greenhouse gases.

Full article at link.
 
#2 · (Edited)
This probably doesn't take into account the nasty mess lithium mining and the digging up of other of Nature's Bounty required for electrics, will create.

In ten years, when the chickens come home to roost, I think these electric-weenie-greenies will be saying "We warned you! We warned you!"


I won't wait 10 years. I will state right now that neither carbon nor CO2 is a "greenhouse" gas. I warned you!

Pursuing an end that is justified by mythology and lies does not therefore justify that end.
 
#4 ·
Well, an EV will eliminate any pollution emitted in a city. Instead, pollutants are much easier to capture at a large power plant then from millions of tailpipes.

Also, EV's will mostly recharge at night, when idle capacity at power plants is largely wasted.

Lastly, powering a car from domestic energy sources instead of oil from the Middle East has to be a good thing.
 
#6 ·
First, US coalfired power plants average 33% efficiency (best case 36%). That says about 10k Btu input (combustion) for 1 kWh (3,412 Btu) output [China's new coal plants are about 40% or better]. The rest is waste heat.

Emissions are heavily coal source dependent in terms of contaminants resulting in SO2, mercury, radioactivity, and the list goes on (basically anything in the coal itself). There are particulates as well as CO2. Depending coal supply source and state/condition of the plant ... the emissions abatement impact on power plant "parasitic losses" could be from 5% to 20% reduction in overall plant efficiency.

And then there are millions (billions?) of tons of toxic ash that must be safely stored ... forever without contaminating regional environments ... water, soil, and air.

One pollutant never counted ... so far ... is waste heat. At 20% to 36% efficiency there are billions of Btu of waste heat (no useful work). This applies to ICE efficiences as well ... whether "global warming" is real ... or ... NOT.


One 50 to 60 mpg combined average diesel vehicle would save about 55 million Btu in thermal emissions [enough to boil roughly 187 tons of water or thaw 190 tons of ice] per vehicle year for the life of the vehicle (20 to 25 years) when compared to the current US domestic light vehicle fleet fuel economies (fueleconomy.gov). How does roughly 4,000 tons sound to you for a single vehicle savings?

After 35 years of coalfired power plant emissions abatement we still have serious problems ... my regional utility is currently shutting down 12 coal plants because of emissions abatement costs.

Actually MOST 45 mpg(US) plus combined Step 5 small displacement Euro type turbo diesels achieve better emissions than a typical 250~300w/mile EV.

As for shutting down (or idling) coal plants at night ... usually only NG turbines are idled because they can be shut down and restarted relatively quickly ... minutes. Coal requires hours.

Your last point is valid ... UP TO A POINT.

It is a valid provided the source is NOT dependent on carbon combustion ... i.e. ... solar, wind, hydro, geothermal, nuclear (4th generation reactors). There is some efforts in tidal currents as well.

In fact ... it appears that small displacement Euro type turbo diesels can do almost as well on diesel ... maybe better on bio diesel.

At least that is what my studies have shown ....
 
#5 ·
What if people want EVs, not because of environmental concerns, but instead because of geopolitical concerns? I realize that it would never cross the mind of the Wall Street Journal editorial board, but some of us view the world as more than simply one giant marketplace. There are reasons I do not want to burn gasoline that have nothing to do with CO2 emissions.
 
#10 · (Edited)
You messed me up with you question ...

I didn't know ... so I did a quick search ... low and behold ... I found several articles that claimed that coal plant flue emissions were a greater radiation risk than nuclear power plants (with a couple of exceptions) ... apparently recognized as far back as 1978. This obviously is totally driven by contaminates in the coal supply.
http://204.154.137.14/technologies/coalpower/cctc/resources/pdfsmisc/haps/M97051055.pdf

And more currently (possibly influenced by the Sierra Club's current efforts to have ALL coalfired US power plants declared hazardous to man and environment by 2015 in order to hasten their decommissioning).
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste

Now to your question about how much coal ash is in storage ... so far over 124 square miles about 40 feet deep ... also believed to be toxic (about 1.25 times the size of Washinton DC, 8% up the Washington Monument ... humor?).
http://www.caer.uky.edu/kyasheducation/whathappens.shtml

See ... I told you that you messed up my day.

In return, I'll give you something to "worry about".

Electricity might be as hard to get as petroleum by 2017.

How's that? Got a bicycle?