This is one thing that I never thought Bob Lutz would write.

 

I thought he was going senile and then he writes something as thoughtful as this. He's pretty much spot on. Dieter Zetcsche at Mercedes has talked in the past how low end luxury and mainstream are merging, which is why you see them offering more entry level models.

The production Continental will of course be the real test. It's most important for Lincoln to set the Continental apart in its own way and at the same time avoid the stench of Town Car/Deville type cars that people to which people will initially want to compare this car. Maybe the new E-Class will be its equal for interior quality and detail (assuming it's anywhere near as good as the concept in the mainstream, non-Black Label grade cars), but the design of the concept car showed a very distinct theme that does not recall a remotely German or otherwise "import" atmosphere. Similarly for its dynamics, it doesn't need to corner like a CTS, but rather be comfortable and balanced, neither being harsh nor floaty. That's the sort of sophistication that befits a Lincoln sedan, whereas it would not be in line with a BMW (hence media complaints about softer contemporary BMWs - it may not be hurting sales but it's not what people have come to expect) which should be much tighter and sportier. The exterior should detailed and stylish yet clean.

And don't market it as some kind of "import" competitor or fill the TV with generic ads of it cruising in the desert. Get to the heart of what makes Lincoln distinctive and special. Otherwise what's the point? Why should the consumer be bothered to look at a Lincoln when there are several other similarly priced products, many of which are from more respected brands. Lincolns are not about chassis tuning or tight rides or 0-60 times. We've all discussed at length Cadillac's issues with image and portraying themselves in ways that do not work. Lincolns are proud, stylish, decadent CARS, not machines. Or at least that's what they are supposed to be. Now it's on Lincoln to make the Continental like that and deliver that message to the public.

Since the ATS/CTS have launched, I have been preaching that Cadillac needs to make their product more compelling and less about the numbers. I still feel that way after CT6, but think the Continental has a shot. Give people a reason to come into the showroom, then you've got a shot at closing them. If your biggest selling point is your car is 200 lbs lighter, that doesn't resonate with most people.

I remember Lincoln's "Travel Well" campaign showing off the Navigator's power running boards and satin nickel trim. The brand seemed to be aiming high at the time. Too bad the product didn't continue to improve.

Let's hope the message and the product finally connect.

That opportunity cost of not continuing to improve on the Navigator was huge. The Navigator could still be selling more units than Escalade. Think of how much profit they left on the table that could have gone to into Ford/Lincoln and what they could have done with that.

Hopefully Lincoln will be a hit. But my hopes ain't very high. I am afraid it'll be too bland. But if they have balls to make the interior stand-out, it'll be a message for Cadillac to care more about the details. More than they did on CT6.

I think that's everybody's concern. We've see the watered down effect in between show cars and production cars in the past. They have a great opportunity, I hope they don't ***k it up.

Cadillac was fine well into the 70's.............then things went downhill.

Meh, I think that is revisionist history. I think they were going downhill before that.

 

The production Continental will of course be the real test. It's most important for Lincoln to set the Continental apart in its own way and at the same time avoid the stench of Town Car/Deville type cars that people to which people will initially want to compare this car. Maybe the new E-Class will be its equal for interior quality and detail (assuming it's anywhere near as good as the concept in the mainstream, non-Black Label grade cars), but the design of the concept car showed a very distinct theme that does not recall a remotely German or otherwise "import" atmosphere. Similarly for its dynamics, it doesn't need to corner like a CTS, but rather be comfortable and balanced, neither being harsh nor floaty. That's the sort of sophistication that befits a Lincoln sedan, whereas it would not be in line with a BMW (hence media complaints about softer contemporary BMWs - it may not be hurting sales but it's not what people have come to expect) which should be much tighter and sportier. The exterior should detailed and stylish yet clean.

And don't market it as some kind of "import" competitor or fill the TV with generic ads of it cruising in the desert. Get to the heart of what makes Lincoln distinctive and special. Otherwise what's the point? Why should the consumer be bothered to look at a Lincoln when there are several other similarly priced products, many of which are from more respected brands. Lincolns are not about chassis tuning or tight rides or 0-60 times. We've all discussed at length Cadillac's issues with image and portraying themselves in ways that do not work. Lincolns are proud, stylish, decadent CARS, not machines. Or at least that's what they are supposed to be. Now it's on Lincoln to make the Continental like that and deliver that message to the public.

 

You nailed it!

 

Bob is old school.

 

I remember Lincoln's "Travel Well" campaign showing off the Navigator's power running boards and satin nickel trim. The brand seemed to be aiming high at the time. Too bad the product didn't continue to improve.

Let's hope the message and the product finally connect.

 

I remember Lincoln's "Travel Well" campaign showing off the Navigator's power running boards and satin nickel trim. The brand seemed to be aiming high at the time. Too bad the product didn't continue to improve.

That must have been the 2003 gen Gator? That's actually my favorite Lincoln of the 2000s and 2010s so far. Why? It was classy but tasteful, actually didn't look that much like the Expedition on the outside despite how much it shared, had one of the best SUV interiors when it was launched, and was very progress-minded in its technology. It was an excellent job on Lincoln's part, with its only real issue being the Escalade's 6.0L V-8 compared to the V-8 of the Lincoln. I do like the LS for its great style and solid dynamics, and frankly I also like the Aviator for being a mini-Navigator. But the Navigator is somehow special to me. It did seem aspirational, too. A loaded Navigator at that time went into new pricing territory that other available Lincolns had not gone. But after that I suppose it was in part Ford's financial woes that resulted in a lack of other Lincolns doing this, but even by the ~2003 time frame Lincoln needed a serious mid-luxury sedan, be it a great new Town Car or something else. I think the Panther platform would actually have had potential, but the 2003 Town Car redesign was pretty much a warm over compared to what I'd have done.

Stench?

I will always love the final generation of Deville, but I'm talking about perception.

That opportunity cost of not continuing to improve on the Navigator was huge. The Navigator could still be selling more units than Escalade. Think of how much profit they left on the table that could have gone to into Ford/Lincoln and what they could have done with that.

The 2007 Navigator is massively disappointing. I like the front, although the grille should've been more like a 61 Continental and not the 62; I think that'd make it look richer and more detailed. But those rear lights? The interior was a step back and didn't advance much, the V-8 was largely carried over. Just a lousy era for the Gator, and I hope the new one gets out of it soon. The current Navigator (until more recently) had begun to compete on price with other large SUVs. Am I even correct in remembering that its base price stayed around 50K for years while the Escalade moved further and further upmarket? IMO the next Navigator needs to be treated like a flagship in all ways and should essentially be the flagship Lincoln as Lincoln markets it given that a comparable sedan is a long way off - if it ever even happens.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...112/RETAIL01/150119900/cadillac-will-develop-entry-level-sedan-de-nysschen-says

I think a lower end ATS is what should be the bottom of the barrel for Cadillac, at least for some time yet. In fact the CLA in particular has a comparable base price to the ATS 2.5. But I've said before that Cadillac should not become a mass market luxury brand like the Germans. A full lineup is fine, but Cadillac should be a bit more special and unique. GM has other brands like Opel and Buick that can cover much of the quasi-upscale market. That's not the same thing as offering a Cadillac, but that's exactly my point. The company needs profits, but they must be watchful that a quest for profits does not infringe on brand equity. That's not something MB has to worry about, for example, or Audi. MB has been an everything brand for a long time. The CLA is really nothing new in that sense. That's not a slam towards MB at all. It's what makes them unique. Audi rose from more humble roots than a competitor like Cadillac or even Lexus, which speaks a lot of how well Audi has done today given their cache. But something like the A1 or A3 is not really uncharted territory for that brand in the sense that Audi decades ago was not a serious luxury brand as it is now.

 

Cadillac was fine well into the 70's.............then things went downhill.

 

Now that Bob Lutz is no longer on the GM payroll he is able to say what he really thinks. I find his analysis refreshing!

 

I ran this earlier, before a link was available.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f19/lutz-luxury-210745/

 

This is perhaps the most idiotic thing I've heard the man say. The Continental hasn't even been revealed yet. The latest spy shots show an XTS competitor at best.

 

Really? What are the spy shots showing, that makes you think it's going to be any different from the concept outside of trimmings?

Secondly, how is this being an XTS competitor a bad thing? Cadillac is going to discontinue the XTS soon, and where do you think all of those customers are going to go?

Imagine, instead of the goofy swooping proportions of the XTS, that the car had the slab-sided, boxier proportions of the Ciel/Elmiraj, with the same styling details? At $50,000, they'd struggle to keep them on the lots.

The Ciel/Elmiraj are awesome, and it has nothing to do with the fact that they're RWD. It's in the details and styling, which don't cost significantly more than the phoned-in styling and details of the XTS.

 

Lincoln has potential, but they are still a notch below Cadillac. Let's just be real.

 

In this vein, I'm always kind of shocked at the difference a great paint job, in the right colour, can make to provide a premium car with presence. Especially with modern paints, which tend to be towards the orange-peel spectrum of things on normal cars.

If Lincoln (or someone) offered some bespoke (and well thought out as part of the design, rather than marketing) paint colours, with loads of depth and proper colour sanding and polishing -- I wonder if it would stand out to non-car people?

 

I was initially offended by Bob's article but upon reflection I think he is right on. Of course, the other thing about "luxury" cars is that the market is very small and crowded. Bentley sells about 10,000 cars/year and Rolls Royce about 4,000. GM would not be satisfied with that small volume, even for a halo car. Every time they tried it, they killed it, i.e.,Allante, XLR.

 

So then what is your over/under for CT6 annual sales?

IMHO, I would be absolutely dumbfounded if it sustained sales of anything north of 500/month.

 

I think Bob Lutz know more then he said. Could we see a new Continental Mark IX coupe going after the CTS coupe?

 

No one has seen the production Continental yet! Concepts always look great.

I'm going to enjoy all the tears when it is finally revealed to be s letdown. Nothing can keep up with the wild hype and anticipation.

 

The difference between RWD proportions and FWD proportions is the difference between a lightning bug and a lightning bolt. The luxury crowd taste makers can smell a cheap knockoff from a mile away.

 

But you've never asked the question; Do people like lighting bugs or lighting bolts better?.....................

Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen said sales of the ATS compact sedan have been hurt by the Mercedes CLA and other lower-priced recent entries, and he plans to respond with an entry-level sedan of his own.

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...112/RETAIL01/150119900/cadillac-will-develop-entry-level-sedan-de-nysschen-says

 

^Agreed, especially RWD with no AWD option.

 

I would of thought Bob would of had more sense than to compare a concept to a production car

 

I think the fit and finish of Cadillacs have been wanting , components not as user friendly , an exterior that isn't to my mind , refined with at least some soft , rounded angles , rich colors and a balanced design . Building up a brand name to be at the forefront of the market takes TIME . You take a certain wheelbased product , like say the ATS and the first year , it develops a good market response but starts to fade . Now is the problem the size , the fit and finish , what is it ? You research/find the problem areas ,go to work and refine it and this takes time , but it should be FUN and get the whole division excited about the refinement !. It appears Cadillac's response now , as it has been from day one many years ago , to be one of "wait till next year we will have another model or two for your consideration" ! Cadillac should be number one in prestige vehicle customer satisfaction and it isn't by a long shot , in my opinion again , ....number one in prestige sales , but it isn't.....number one in prestige brand awareness , but it isn't , have excellent representation of product in the hot higher priced CUV market but doesn't .....and this is in North America , the home of the big Three....one of the largest businesses and employers in the land . There is a lot of good potential in this division , regardless of many negative comments , but when do the Cadillac employees , from top to bottom , start taking full responsibility for what they are doing ??

 

I *know* that during the design phase any number of variations are developed, some more some less
&
see no reason when/IF the '''Approvers''' choose the WRONG ONE, they don't have(let) the designers pre-plan for changes to be quickly/affordably made...

...except/unless said Approvers just can't realize that they don't know best all the time

 

Thinking in terms of the luxury experience totally escapes people who consider luxury dining Red Lobster instead of Big Boy.

And that's why they moved to New York.

Continental is absolutely more luxurious. CT6 is not a luxury car. It's a box-checked exercise in chassis engineering and weight reduction. There's no soul to it.

I hate the Continental and also consider it lacking, but Lincoln definitely gets the message better than Cadillac.

Lutz was spot on. So was Amphibian.

 

New flash, cars do not have souls...

The CT6 is lighter than a 5 series. Its going to be a rude awakening for lazy fat Sedans with planks of wood and dead animal skins.

 

For Cadillac and Lincoln, the priority should be to build the best-looking full-size sedan in the world. If everything you do is the best looking with the best trim, the best leather, and the biggest wheels, the performance just has to be adequate. The car doesn't have to win every high-performance comparison test. It just has to be so compelling that it forces people to consider the brand. That's where the new Lincoln Continental concept succeeds. It will have some people who have never considered a Lincoln saying, "Boy, this thing looks great." Then they'll drive it, and sure enough, it will likely drive great.

Worth a quote. Cadillac needs to pay attention.

Out of 100 people buying luxury cars, 10 will care about how a car drives and half of those will look at Cadillac.

It's all about image, literally. The car has to look the part, inside and out. Doesn't matter how many pictures people post of interiors on top of each other or comparative profile shots of other flagships or midsize cars or whatever. If people wanted boring competition, there's a status quo that works just fine for them.

Not a single Cadillac moves the bar enough, not a single Cadillac is passionate enough. The only Cadillac that can really be considered a success (besides SRX, which is another story; one crossover for a whole brand, and a decent one at a discount) is Escalade. That's only because there's nothing else like it on the market.

 

Out of 100 people buying luxury cars, 10 will care about how a car drives and half of those will look at Cadillac.

I believe this is even more important for Cadillac to understand in China. Most Cadillac buyers are in the city, and most city drivers don't 'drive' their cars. Even the ones that don't have a chauffeur don't head out for hard carving local backroads on the weekend. That's why the XTS is still very popular (I see it more than any other Cadillac, or at least as much as the SRX). In the right colour the XTS cuts a sharp profile and has a lot of presence. People here want roomy, extended length luxury cars with more options than they can list.

Buick is extremely popular with their GL8 minivan, not because it out-handles the competition (or an oxcart, for that matter), but because it is an attractive (for a van) design and has a well-appointed interior. It's a step below Cadillac for sure, but it's the same game. Luxury and near-luxury buyers in China want to be coddled and to show off their success, and it's hard to impress people in the street with your g's on the skidpad. Again, as a car fan, that's hard to swallow, but that's how the game is being played, and why I think that a properly executed FWD Continental can be a bigger success than the RWD CT6 despite being an inferior handling car that weighs much more.

 

Paul,
assuming that you haven't had the chance to drive a Lincoln yet - specifically the MKZ,
imho it'd be at least helpful if not eye-opening
if you could ... on an unfavored twisty if at all possible,
hopefully for a long enough time to try out the 3 CCD modes.

Since the 1st gen Continental will be built off the same architecture
that should give you a hint of what the big boy will be capable of.

 

Oh I'd love to, and I'm certainly not suggesting that the Continental will be a slouch in the ride and handling department... just that even if in the end it can't out-track a CT6 (and it likely won't), that's not going to stop it from being a successful luxury car.

 

I think virtually zero people cross shop the MKS and 5-series, for example. It's a totally different customer.

 

Boy, you take one day off from the computer and you have 177,000 pages to read through. Forget it.

My two cents... Look at the Lexus LS. Is it a performance marvel of any kind? No. Is it a head turner? No. But it's extremely comfortable and luxurious inside. Everything is soft inside, it's quiet, bumps in the road don't bother you. It has all the technology you expect. Now imagine something like that with a design as nice as the Lincoln Continental concept... It could be everything the Lexus LS is but actually BE a head turner. Imagine?

 

This from the guy who gave us the '05 STS.

He also stated at the Paris Auto Show in 2004 that if he were still at Chrysler, he wouldn't have cleared the 300 for production.

For Cadillac and Lincoln, the priority should be to build the best-looking full-size sedan in the world. If everything you do is the best looking with the best trim, the best leather, and the biggest wheels, the performance just has to be adequate.

Sounds like something a GM exec would have said in 1977.


Has he seen the PRODUCTION Continental?

The Continental CONCEPT CAR is certainly more luxurious than the CT6 in it's Hillbilly-Prom-Night kind of way.

But any automaker can throw thicker nylon bits at a show car.

 

This from the guy who gave us the '05 STS.

He also stated at the Paris Auto Show in 2004 that if he were still at Chrysler, he wouldn't have cleared the 300 for production.



Sounds like something a GM exec would have said in 1977.


Has he seen the PRODUCTION Continental?

The Continental CONCEPT CAR is certainly more luxurious than the CT6 in it's Hillbilly-Prom-Night kind of way.

But any automaker can throw thicker nylon bits at a show car.

People love the brothel blue interior. It's unique, and I think that's what Bob Lutz was getting at.

 

Do we need any more explaining?

(it's gorgeous)

 

That's the best angle of the whole design IMO.