[andretti]

That's the negative way to look at it I suppose.

GM needs an oil that will last longer than regular oil yet doesn't cost as much as full synthetic. That is what Dexos job is. Having said that, I don't know how much a Dexos oil will cost however trying to convert your entire customer base to an oil twice the price of the current one would be the facepalm of a lifetime.

And if the royalty fee was as extravagant as some people make it out to be, Shell and others would be saying no to Dexos.

Exactly, GM should be commended for creating an oil spec to meet new requirements without full synthetic. However, adding a license fee and royalty to every quart sold is disingenuous and a bit of a sham.

 

[FanOfDurant]

The "NEW GM" ought to fix this right away and not make every customer with a failure bring it in. They had better not treat it like the Head bolt issue and the intake manifold issue and numerous other issues like "OLD GM". In the past, problems like this first would be denied, then blamed on the customer and then basically "you bought it it is your problem" attitude (if it is out of warranty). If it is still in warranty then reasons to deny warranty will have to be created.

I hope for "NEW GM"s sake they do the right ting and proactively recall these and repair/replace the timing chains on all the 3.6L's

Damn right they better.. This is No way to build a new reputation for your company. I had heard of this issue but never personally worked on one as of yet. I'm still friends with local Chevrolet dealership mechanics and they've mentioned the same things stated in this thread. Namely, GM cheaped out on engine parts and they personally wouldn't own one of these motors. That's not good at all.. Information travels Fast in this day and age which kills your companies reputation and sales. GM stepping over dollars to save pennies again.. The bean counting has to stop! General Motors should have the best, most reliable, longest lasting trouble free motors that money can buy in their vehicles. You don't cheap out on stuff like this. I've done hundreds of gasket repairs over the years on GM engines and every time I do one I still get pissed off that the bean counters were allowed to go over an engineers head on the issue. It killed their reputation for many customers who will never return to GM again..

 

[AMERICA 123]

Well, lets see if something can be gleaned from those with far higher problem rates.

Like Ford.

" Ford timing chain problem "


About 1,810,000 results (0.13 seconds)

Past year

Search Results

1.
2004 Ford Explorer 4.0 SOHC timing chain noise - Car Forums - Edmunds
Apr 30, 2010 - Mar 7, 2009 ... 2004 Ford Explorer 4.0 SOHC timing chain noise discussion in the car forums by Edmunds.com.
townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1cafaf - Cached - Similar
Ford Explorer Starting and Stalling Problems‎ - May 13, 2008
Ford Explorer Maintenance and Repair‎ - Aug 17, 2005

More results from townhall-talk.edmunds.com »
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2.
Timing chain noise - Ford Explorer Ranger Enthusiasts "Serious ...
Feb 16, 2010 - Feb 16, 2010 ... There are a number of them on youtube, but that was the first one when i searched for 'ford explorer timing chain rattle'. Ian5700 is offline ...
www.explorerforum.com › ... › UK Explorer Owners Forum - Cached
Broken Timing Chain on 4.0L after 40000 miles‎ - Oct 26, 2010
Timing Chain Tensioner 2004 SOHC‎ - Aug 19, 2010
Main timing chain - OHV vs SOHC‎ - Jan 29, 2010
SOHC Timing Chain.. did Ford ever fix the design?‎ - Jan 27, 2010

More results from explorerforum.com »
3.
2003 Ford Edge Timing Chain Problem
Nov 16, 2010 - 1991 Ford F-350 water leak under driver side oil filter ... 2003 Ford Edge timing chain problem. timing chain tensioner has no oil pressure ...
www.2carpros.com › Ford › Edge - Cached
4.
2002 Ford Expedition Timing Chain Noise
Feb 17, 2010 - 2002 Ford Expedition timing chain noise. Engine Mechanical problem 2002 Ford ...
www.2carpros.com/.../ford-expedition-2002-ford-expedition-timing-chain-noise - Cached
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5.
Worn timing chain cassettes may cause rattling noise from engine ...
Sep 16, 2010 - Follow this Problem Report Unfollow this Problem Report. Report #1. Anonymous, 1997 Ford Explorer. Small rattling noise turned into timing chain broke cover ...
repairpal.com › Cars › Ford › Explorer - Cached
6.
1999 Mustang Cobra Timing Chain Guide Problem - Ford Mustang Forums
Feb 8, 2010 - Discuss 1999 Mustang Cobra Timing Chain Guide Problem on AllFordMustangs.com, the place for Mustang enthusiasts. Welcome to our Mustang forums where ...
www.allfordmustangs.com › ... › SVT Cobra Mustang › SVT Cobra Tech - Cached
7.
Ford F150 - Timing chain noise - Ford F150 .net
5 posts - 3 authors - Last post: Nov 2, 2010
All went together fine, and ran great,but the timing chain sounded like it was rubbing on the cover. I pulled the cover and as I figured it was hitting, ...
www.fordf150.net › F150 Forum - Cached
8.
Changing timing chain 1997 4.6l. Any cues? - Ford Truck ...
10 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Apr 17, 2010
I'm trying to avoid mechanics, not for the cost, but for the future problems. They will probably do the timing chain job ok, but they're the kind that are ...
www.ford-trucks.com › ... › Modular V8 (4.6L, 5.4L) - Cached - Similar
9.
2002 ford 4.0L timing chain rattle
12 posts - 5 authors - Last post: Jun 12, 2010
the earlier SOHC's are riddled with timing chain problems. both chains go ... and it leads to problems. Ford relied on fixes rather than re- engineering. ...
www.hotrodders.com › ... › Tech Help › Engine - Cached
10.
Ford timing chain
Jun 1, 2010 - Ford timing chain - Wholesale Ford timing chain direct to you from Auto Parts GIANT.com. By eliminating the middle man we can bring you wholesale prices on ...
www.autopartsgiant.com/ford/timingchain/ - Cached

 

[Lowboy]

I've done hundreds of gasket repairs over the years on GM engines and every time I do one I still get pissed off that the bean counters were allowed to go over an engineers head on the issue. It killed their reputation for many customers who will never return to GM again..

Dang union engineer and bean counters......

 

[AMERICA 123]

- Like Nissan.

" Nissan timing chain problem "

About 847,000 results (0.14 seconds)

Past year

Search Results

1.
Timing Chain Repair Questions Answered By Certified Technicians Free
Nov 12, 2010 - Got a Timing Chain Repair Question? 2CarPros.com Professional Mechanics Online will answer it free ... The problem is the check gauges light comes on.the. ... Nissan 240SX : 1995 Nissan 200sx. First, does this car have a timing... more ...
www.2carpros.com › Topics › Engine Mechanical - Cached
►
2.
YouTube - Nissan Quest 3.5 timing chain noise
Apr 30, 2010 - What it sounds like when the timing chain starts to go in a Nissan 3.5. This is a 04 Quest.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4djJEjJjxE - Cached
3.
Nissan Altima Timing Chain Guide Noise
Jun 8, 2010 - Reader Question : Hi Austin, I don't need any repair - yet. My question is when. I have a 1995 Nissan Altima with a metal timing chain on the 2.4L.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/...92311/www.myhonestmechanic.com/.../nissan-altima-timing-chain-guide-noise.shtml - Cached
4.
Timing Chain problems!!!! WTF - Nissan Forums: Nissan Enthusiast Forum
Mar 17, 2010 - Mar 16, 2010 ... So i'm getting a humming noise from my engine when i accelerate on the pedal. At first i thought it was a bad alternator......not the case. Dealership.
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/...now-92311/www.nissanclub.com/...nissan.../301898-timing-chain-problems-wtf.html - Cached
What's the % on VQ's with the timing chain tensioner issue ...‎ - Jun 27, 2010
Timing chain replacement VQ35 - Page 4‎ - Feb 24, 2010
Timing chain replacement VQ35‎ - Jan 11, 2010

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5.
KA24DE: Timing chain problem maybe?? need help!!!! - Nissan 240SX ...
4 posts - 3 authors - Last post: Oct 17, 2010
Alright so i just swapped out my KA24E for a KA24DE and was successful for the most part, i test drove it for 2 full days and the only problem it was.
www.240sxforums.com › ... › KA24DE/T and KA24E - Cached
6.
Nissan Pathfinder Broken Timing Belt - Car Forums - Edmunds
Nov 30, 2010 - Dec 31, 2006 ... Nissan Pathfinder Broken Timing Belt discussion in the car forums by Edmunds.com. ... I am going through the same problem. The car made the sqealing noise ...
townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f10cd21 - Cached - Similar
2007 maxima timing chain issue [dealmade]‎ - Nov 12, 2010
Nissan Altima Maintenance and Repair - Car Forums‎ - Sep 6, 2009
Nissan Quest 2004+ - Car Forums‎ - Oct 21, 2007
Nissan Pickup Owners Hangout - Car Forums‎ - Oct 11, 2005

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7.
Timing chain noise may lead to timing chain failure on higher ...
Sep 16, 2010 - broken timing chain it made no noise at all but need to know if it hurt the motor or can i just... Q&A > Nissan > 1995 Nissan Sentra ...
repairpal.com › Cars › Nissan › Sentra - Cached
8.
Nissan Xterra Timing Chain Issue- Warning - Xterra Owners Club
3 posts - 3 authors - Last post: Dec 24, 2010
I'm finding timing chain issues are prevalent among Nissans 2005-2010 and I would like to save other owners the grief I've experienced with this problem. ...
www.xterraownersclub.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb... - Cached
9.
2005 timing chain Altima 2.5 - Nissanhelp.com Forums - Nissanhelp ...
Oct 7, 2010 - Oct 7, 2010 ... And what would be some of the symptoms of the chain needing replaced.I hear no chain noise,but I'm having a timing issue.Nissan dealer says timing off 15 ...
x.nissanhelp.com › Nissanhelp.com Forums › Models › Altima - Cached
Nissan Xterra Timing Chain Issue- Beware‎ - 3 posts - Oct 30, 2010
$67 Cure for VQ35 Timing Chain Rattle in 05 Quest‎ - 5 posts - Oct 7, 2010
05 xterra timing chain issue. - Page 2‎ - 20 posts - Apr 23, 2008

More results from x.nissanhelp.com »
10.
1997 nissan sentra.....how difficult is it to adjust the timing ...
May 24, 2010 - The chain runs on guides inside the timing cover. ... 2004 nissan sentra 1.8 thats been having crank problems. replaced maf sensor ran for few days later ...
answers.yahoo.com › ... › Cars & Transportation › Car Makes › Nissan - Cached

 

[AMERICA 123]

- Like BMW.

" BMW timing chain problem "

About 823,000 results (0.17 seconds)
Past year
Search Results

1.
1997 BMW E39 540i Timing Chain Noise – M60, M62 V8 – E31, E32, E34 ...
Aug 20, 2010 - This answer is applicable for many BMWs in addition to the one listed below. Q The timing chain on my 97 540i is intermittently noisy (It's sometimes.
blog.bavauto.com/bmw.../1997-bmw-e39-540i-timing-chain-noise-m60-m62-v8-e31-e32-e34-e38-e39-e53-x5 - Cached
►
2.
Timing Chain destroyed Engine - BMW Warranty A Joke - MINI2 - MINI ...
4 days ago - To try and say a non serviceable part like the timing chain breaks due to .... BMW still dragging their heels and no real answer to the problem as of yet. ...
www.mini2.com/.../184402-timing-chain-destroyed-engine-bmw-warranty-joke.html - Cached
3.
Mini Cooper Cold Start Knocking Noise Issue Timing Chain 2007 2008 ...
Jan 29, 2010 - Finally BMW rep has authorised the timing chain, belts and tensioners all be replaced! ... Engine rattling, Timing chain problem, finally blew a spark plug. ...
www.minicooperspeed.com/mini-cooper-cold-start-knocking-noise-issue-2007/ - Cached - Similar
4.
Bmw change timing chain Problems
Mar 8, 2010 - Solve Your "bmw change timing chain" Problem Now! ... BMW Cars & Trucks Problem. how do i change the timing chain in my bmw 540i - posted in Cars & Trucks ...
www.fixya.com/tags/bmw_change_timing_chain - Cached
5.
Timing Chain Repair Questions Answered By Certified Technicians Free
Nov 12, 2010 - The problem is the check gauges light comes on.the. .... BMW 318 : 1992 BMW 318i coupe i recently replaced timing chain and... more ...
www.2carpros.com › Topics › Engine Mechanical - Cached
6.
timing chain of a BMW 740i 1999 to wore out and is it worth ...
Apr 27, 2010 - what are the most common problems with 1999 740i BMW? and is it easy to get ... An abnormal noise may develop from the timing chain due to a failed chain ...
repairpal.com › Cars › BMW › 740i › 1999 - Cached
7.
BMWSuperBikes.com • View topic - K1200S timing chain problems
19 posts - 8 authors - Last post: Oct 12, 2010
Interestingly enough, I believe the timing chain is just in front ( or next to) the clutch. Makes me wonder. Never heard of this happening to BMW's. ...
www.bmwsuperbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f... - Cached
8.
YouTube - BMW E39 535i Engine Noise after Timing Chain replacement
Sep 25, 2010 - sounds like a vacuum / small engine being revved high even at 2k.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=z39Zx3g_9Jg - Cached
9.
Timing Chain - I-BMW.com
31 posts - 12 authors - Last post: Sep 22, 2010
The biggest problem with the timing chain inspection is not having the cover leak afterwards. So if it's not leaking leave it well alone. Even BMW shops can ...
www.i-bmw.com › ... › K1200RS/GT › "KRS/GT" Technical Q&A - Cached - Similar
10.
timing chain better than timing belt? - bimmerfest - BMW Forums
14 posts - 11 authors - Last post: 20 hours ago
It was Quiet & worked well when new but definitely has wear problems. ... The only time you would have to do some work on a i6 timing chain (v8 is different ...
www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5759117

 

[FanOfDurant]

I expect more from GM though.. It doesn't matter much to me if brand X has just as many issues, more issues or none at all. The gaskets for example in many of GM engines were a known part failure. It wasn't a matter of if they would fail, it was a matter of when. For a few extra pennies per unit they could have put quality gaskets in their engines designed to last 150k+ miles. Yet for years on end they just kept sticking the same crap gaskets in every new vehicle that rolled off the assembly line.

Just think of how many lifelong GM customers GM lost over this one stupid little thing. Thousands of ruined engines, lost customers, lost future sales, lost trust, lost money in warranty work costs and most importanty lost brand loyalty. It simply doesn't pay in any way, shape or form to pull crap like that on someone who trusted you enough to put their hard earned money on the line for your product.

In the modern age of the internet and when other car makers are out for blood, this stuff has to stop now. We already have a tarnished reputation for quality... We have a black eye from the bailout/bankruptcy. What about people interested in GM stock? What do things like this make potential investors think?? If GM is to become a dominant force again these things cannot be acceptable.

 

[goochman]

America 123 - from the list of results you posted most if not all of those vehicles were 6+ years old.

If you can dig up some relevent 4,000 mile brand new Ford/BMW/Nissan results that would be a little bit better comparison.

1999 BMW's after 11 or 12 years of losing a chain I wouldnt complain about.

1month - 3 years old - I would be PO'd.

 

[peterj2706]

I think a lot of that is overhead and legacy costs, not material costs.

Overhead, that's funny, almost as funny as legacy not material costs... Ha Ha Oh well, it's all covered by Uncle Sam.

 

[Dr.Show-Me]

FanofDurant, I agree, GM should do it right the first time, by producing superior products that can run 200k miles without failure. It wouldn't cost much to use the best gaskets, materials, parts and the like, but the result could be amazing. A GM car that just keeps running, and running and running. No engine failures. No transmission failures. A/C blow ice cubes forever. It can be done for far less than it costs to repair the messes they caused.

 

[andretti]

FanofDurant, I agree, GM should do it right the first time, by producing superior products that can run 200k miles without failure. It wouldn't cost much to use the best gaskets, materials, parts and the like, but the result could be amazing. A GM car that just keeps running, and running and running. No engine failures. No transmission failures. A/C blow ice cubes forever. It can be done for far less than it costs to repair the messes they caused.

For some reason GM can't resist squeezing the last $.50 out of every part on the vehicle. The result is premature failure and disillusioned customers and decreasing marketshare. The end is bankruptcy! Again!

 

[Lou_313]

Of course... At the beginning with the NorthStar head bolt fiasco it was the customers fault for not servicing the cooling system soon enough... Funny thing was that even internet forum savvy customers who serviced their coolant every YEAR still had the head bolts fail... Just about everyone now agrees that the NorthStars are ticking time bomb just waiting to let go..

Sadly, the NorthStar has been kind of replaced with the 3.6L and now it is becoming clear that these engines are not without there issues too. Its always nice to hear GM's own tech's say that they would never buy a car with this engine in it.

We have several techs on this and other GM forums that I frequent DOCUMENTING that:
1) This is very common
2) Millage in not an issue
3) Oil changes are not an issue and
4) Some have failed within months of purchase, some with as little as 4,000 miles on the clock.

GM needs to get behind this problem and make it right before all of these customers join the disappointed 4.1L, 4.5L and NorthStar Customers.

More than that. Didn't GM have alot of intake gasket problems with pretty much every OHV V6 engine of the late '90's to early/mid '00's? The 3100's, 3400's and 3800's (except for the supercharged version I think)? It seems like I remember reading some ppl with the newer 3900 V6's having the same issue.

 

[JBsZ06]

And the letter back from GM is the reason it took 6 years is because so many idiot owners don't feel the need to either change the oil or if they do they don't check the oil every 1000 or 2000 miles like any sane person should do with their vehicle.

GM should just install an oil level monitor system like BMW had to because Americans are too busy yaking on their cell phones to bother to check their oil level with the dip stick..LOL...and unless there is an APP for their ipod to remind them most people are too "busy" to manually check their own oil and would rather cry about a manufacturering defect...LOL What a lazy group of people..

The reality of it is people, owners of vehicles who have this problem for the most part..(as I am sure there is a percentage of every brand of vehicle that does have some sort of engine issue) don't think there is a reason to check the oil in their 30,40 or 50 thousand dollar vehicle as seen by this thread in many instances. I understand the fast pace life so many americans have these days and I understand the lack of knowledge that requires that 15 seconds of the owners life to be wasted away checking the oil once a month..yet as far as I can tell...

It'll be something I do with every car I own.

Good luck to those who dont' want to check their oil "because they believe its no longer part of owning a "modern" automobile.

I don't mean this to sound rude so please accept my apologies up front..

Its just what I have been taught as normal vehicle maintaince.

Different strokes for different folks..

Good luck my friends.

JB

 

[bballr4567]

I know quite a few friends and even a family member that toasted an engine because it ran low on oil. Its just a routine maintenance check. Even the BMW oil level monitor only goes off when its around 25-30% low. That is just too low for me.

 

[andretti]

And the letter back from GM is the reason it took 6 years is because so many idiot owners don't feel the need to either change the oil or if they do they don't check the oil every 1000 or 2000 miles like any sane person should do with their vehicle.

GM should just install an oil level monitor system like BMW had to because Americans are too busy yaking on their cell phones to bother to check their oil level with the dip stick..LOL...and unless there is an APP for their ipod to remind them most people are too "busy" to manually check their own oil and would rather cry about a manufacturering defect...LOL What a lazy group of people..

The reality of it is people, owners of vehicles who have this problem for the most part..(as I am sure there is a percentage of every brand of vehicle that does have some sort of engine issue) don't think there is a reason to check the oil in their 30,40 or 50 thousand dollar vehicle as seen by this thread in many instances. I understand the fast pace life so many americans have these days and I understand the lack of knowledge that requires that 15 seconds of the owners life to be wasted away checking the oil once a month..yet as far as I can tell...

It'll be something I do with every car I own.

Good luck to those who dont' want to check their oil "because they believe its no longer part of owning a "modern" automobile.

I don't mean this to sound rude so please accept my apologies up front..

Its just what I have been taught as normal vehicle maintaince.

Different strokes for different folks..

Good luck my friends.

JB

You continue to try to obfuscate the facts by claiming that the numerous timing chain failures are caused by operating the engine in a "low oil level" condition. There is absolutely no evidence that this is true. GM has admitted to a premature timing chain failure problem on the 3.6 engines and has never once suggested that it is caused by the engine using/burning/leaking/evaporating oil. Give GM credit at least they have taken a "small" (inexpensive) step toward fixing the issue.

This is much like what happened with the Cadillac Northstar V8 headbolt failures. In that case GM first shortened the Dexcool coolant change intervals but eventually it became evident that it was a headbolt design flaw responsible for the failures. I am certain eventually it will be apparent to all that there is a design flaw in the 3.6 V6 as well. Likely either a less than adequate timing chain design or insufficient oiling due to engine block oil passage design.

Both of these potential causes are expensive to fix and therefore GM will exhaust all "cheap" solutions first; such as blaming the oil change intervals or quality of the oils used.

 

[vanshmack]

GM should just install an oil level monitor system like BMW had to because Americans are too busy yaking on their cell phones to bother to check their oil level with the dip stick..

Most GM vehicles do this. Our '06 Impala SS, which never used a drop of oil in 40,000 miles, surprised us last fall when we started it up and saw a "Low Oil" message on the DIC. It was (shockingly) two quarts low. Naturally, we check it every week now, as the Impala is driven about a 4000 miles per month.

As a side note, I just changed the timing chain in my '87 Grand National back in November. I figured at 160,000 miles, it was about time. The original had a little slop in it, but looked like it could go another 50k. And this is with several dozen high 11-second passes. Just to be safe, though, I put a double-roller in it.

 

[Lowboy]

As a side note, I just changed the timing chain in my '87 Grand National back in November. I figured at 160,000 miles, it was about time.

If it was mine I'd have replaced it long ago.
Did many top end rebuilds from timing chain failures of the old 3.8L Buick.
Became ALOT more reliable with the 3800 series.

 

[AMERICA 123]

Noack loss values of 15 % for GF3 / GF4 / SM rated oils are based on mass loss.

Due to the specifics concerning what boils off first, that can mean a volume loss of up to 30%.

Dipsticks measure 'crankcase' / oil pan oil volume.

Given what's going on with oil, and oil change intervals and procedures..... you 'd have to be....... at the very least........ 'seriously' 'misinformed' not to be following JBsZ06's advice - irregardless of your previous experience or what engine, what vehicle, or which OEM you're talking about.

As others have pointed out, OEMs typically specify checking oil levels - at every fuel stop.

If you have in your own opinion serious value wrapped up in a transportation piece and can't be bothered to check your oil level at least once or twice a month then...... no other way to say it; you have more money than sense and eventually that will be at least partly rectified.

OJT never fails - one way or another.

___________

Btw, strange as it most definitely sounds, there seems to be a slight uptick in all V6 engine oiling related reports in the 3.5 size range and of the OHC configuration - go figure.