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I'm not as nonsensically skeptical as certain cave dweller types, buuuuut I do have to point out:

The commissioning group of the study probably isn't exactly apolitical when it comes to the topic.
My BS "Alarm" went off before I finished reading the title, which "sounds like" someone with an agenda...........


"Your Old Gas Guzzler"


Are you saying they might have lost a few IQ points from sucking on to many "clean" diesel emissions?
No, they have an agenda, and are trying to manipulate you thoughts to what they want you to think.

SOON.................... 2027
 
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There may be fewer parts but they'll be frightfully expensive parts.
So don''t break it!!
No. An electric motor is not some newfangled expensive tech. It requires much less maintenance, lasts longer, and costs less to repair than an ICE.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Problem is that as EV's gain in popularity production will knock against a hard wall of limited supply of the minerals needed for the batteries. Then there is the hard wall of not enough electricity production to charge all of them.
Which is why there is a race to open new mines. There are many articles on the race to open new mines, this is one regarding lithium with an ecological slant (NY Times - would you expect differently?), but still has a lot of interesting details on the race to open them. Lithium Mining Projects May Not Be Green Friendly - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
 

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Agree that the source has a motive, but you gotta think this is one of the main factors that is ultimately driving the EV switchover, they (EVs) have the potential to be way cheaper to build, Some batteries, an induction motor, and viola...an Electric car. You don't have hundreds of rotating parts, camshafts, timing chains, fuel pumps, waterpumps, oil pumps, titanium valves, etc to deal with. Less parts to build, lower cost to build which lends to larger profit margins when sold at a higher cost due to their perceived technical superiority.
Oh no doubt. And removing all those systems means a reduction in the design costs, as well as the integration/programming costs. I mean, think about how much engineering and programming time goes into developing a modern emission control program, validation, compliance, etc. That's basically an entire engineering team that's no longer needed.
 

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Believe it when I see it.
If raw material and battery production is not not substantially boosted you could see the opposite happen, EV costs go up due to battery shortages.

If I can buy a new XT5 EV for $40-45K to replace my current one I'm in. Let me know when it happens.
 

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As Bob Lutz stated, "The electricfication of the automobile is inevitable".
Probably true - battery tech is getting better and there are plenty of reports of big leaps in battery tech in the near future.
 

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Probably true - battery tech is getting better and there are plenty of reports of big leaps in battery tech in the near future.
I don't know if you live in Ontario, but they produce electricity with a very low carbon footprint and also at a low cost (basically, thanks to nuclear power and hydro).

Here is a link to the grid operator in Ontario.

Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO)

At 10:30 am the wholesale price for electrical energy was 0.82 cents/kWh (less than a penny per kWh). An EV may get 3 or 4 miles per kWh, so tell me which gasoline/diesel powered car can have an energy cost of one cent for 4 miles?

Of course, this one cent doesn't include the transmission costs, which today the utilities are using to maximize their profits.
 

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I think the only way to get cheaper cars is to get a cheaper car company with less overhead, and theoretically EVs can make competition easier since they are way easier to commoditize. Right now that's not really the case. I suspect as reductive engineering gets more integrated and more sophisticated, it'll actually be too expensive for competition to enter the market without the scale. I can't help but equate this sort of evolution to Apple and how they've been able to create highly customized designs that are extremely sophisticated and simpler to manufacture, but almost impossible for others to duplicate. That could be the path for electric cars, it's an opportunity for one or a few automakers to really standout. Right now only Tesla has that sort of design approach and everybody else is slowly trying to follow suit.
 

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You're not going to get cheaper cars unless people demand cheaper cars. People mostly demand better cars with more features and luxury. Car companies are going to try to maximize profits by adding more features to keep their desirability and sales up. Somebody might target cheaper product, but there's less profit to be had there. I'm thinking most sales will continue to be in the $40k to $60k range.
 

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You're not going to get cheaper cars unless people demand cheaper cars. People mostly demand better cars with more features and luxury. Car companies are going to try to maximize profits by adding more features to keep their desirability and sales up. Somebody might target cheaper product, but there's less profit to be had there. I'm thinking most sales will continue to be in the $40k to $60k range.
Eventually they're going to have to get cheaper...one of the next things that the auto industry has to worry about is this next generation of potential buyers, they're selfish. They don't want to spend 40-60k on a car, they'd be just as happy working from home and hopping on an Uber to get where they need to go. The auto industry HAS to make ownership appealing again, I think stylish compact EVs at around 20k is the magic button to get the flannel + ironic t-shirt/wearing crowd into car ownership.
 

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I think the only way to get cheaper cars is to get a cheaper car company with less overhead, and theoretically EVs can make competition easier since they are way easier to commoditize. Right now that's not really the case. I suspect as reductive engineering gets more integrated and more sophisticated, it'll actually be too expensive for competition to enter the market without the scale. I can't help but equate this sort of evolution to Apple and how they've been able to create highly customized designs that are extremely sophisticated and simpler to manufacture, but almost impossible for others to duplicate. That could be the path for electric cars, it's an opportunity for one or a few automakers to really standout. Right now only Tesla has that sort of design approach and everybody else is slowly trying to follow suit.
I think the Apple analogy is appropriate but, much like Apple's competitors have shown, it's not the only path to success. There are lots of competitors to Apple in all of their major markets that compete effectively without taking the vertically integrated approach Apple takes. I think the same will be true in cars. Tesla and possibly a few others (including Apple itself?) will become more vertically integrated and provide differentiated products but a majority of the market could still be owned by more traditional manufacturers that rely more heavily on component providers.

What is lacking in the automotive space so far is a Google or a Microsoft that provides a software ecosystem those traditional manufacturers can leverage for both usability (we are seeing software be a big problem for them) as well as a de facto driver of component standardization. Would be interesting to see how the traditional manufacturers overcome that or who would emerge to play that role.
 
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I think the Apple analogy is appropriate but, much like Apple's competitors have shown, it's not the only path to success. There are lots of competitors to Apple in all of their major markets that compete effectively without taking the vertically integrated approach Apple takes. I think the same will be true in cars. Tesla and possibly a few others (including Apple itself?) will become more vertically integrated and provide differentiated products but a majority of the market could still be owned by more traditional manufacturers that rely more heavily on component providers.

What is lacking in the automotive space so far is a Google or a Microsoft that provides a software ecosystem those traditional manufacturers can leverage for both usability (we are seeing software be a big problem for them) as well as a de facto driver of component standardization. Would be interesting to see how the traditional manufacturers overcome that or who would emerge to play that role.
Simple solution to this. GM initiates hostile takeover of Gargoyle. GM wins in court, GM gets softie skills.

Any other questions? 😁
 

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If raw material and battery production is not not substantially boosted you could see the opposite happen, EV costs go up due to battery shortages.

If I can buy a new XT5 EV for $40-45K to replace my current one I'm in. Let me know when it happens.
Give me a sedan as good looking as the Mazda 6 w/ a comfortable interior w/ a 150-200mi range for 35 grand and I'll buy one once I start going into the office again. 150-200mi will give me 2 days worth of commuting on a single charge.
 

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Which is why there is a race to open new mines. There are many articles on the race to open new mines, this is one regarding lithium with an ecological slant (NY Times - would you expect differently?), but still has a lot of interesting details on the race to open them. Lithium Mining Projects May Not Be Green Friendly - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Somewhat off topic...Everybody should watch a documentary about the Green Energy "lie" on Amazon Prime. It is called "Planet of the Humans". Really eye opening stuff. The executive producer is Michael Moore (yes, THAT Michael Moore).
 

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Somewhat off topic...Everybody should watch a documentary about the Green Energy "lie" on Amazon Prime. It is called "Planet of the Humans". Really eye opening stuff. The executive producer is Michael Moore (yes, THAT Michael Moore).
Thanks for that reference, bongos. Pretty interesting, and surprising considering the source. But truth is truth no matter its source. Big cons.
 

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Of course this is obvious when you see the car manufacturers pushing so hard for it. Do you really think they are pushing so hard because they are worried about the environment. Also keep in mind that cheaper to produce doesn’t necessarily mean cheaper to buy.

I think on average there is approximately 1000 fewer parts for a similar electric vehicle. The only thing that could potentially hurt the costs is when the countries that produce the materials for the batteries start to realize the damage all the mining is doing to their land and they no longer want to play nice.
 
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