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The latest Chevy Bolt has a 66 kWh battery pack and an EPA range of 259 miles.

Bolt EPA Range

But this article from IEEE brings out an important aspect of Ultium; Efficiency.

IEEE Article

Here is a quote from the article.

GM says even its smallest and most-affordable new EVs will have ranges of at least 482 km (300 miles), despite having packs as small as 50 kWh, about 25 percent less energy than the current Bolt. “If you're not getting at least 300 miles from a new EV architecture, you're doing something wrong," says Andy Oury, GM's lead engineer for high-voltage battery packs.

So in essence, the Bolt gets ~ 4 miles per kWh. If this article is correct, getting 300 miles with 50 kWh equates to 6 miles/kWh. This is a big increase in efficiency!
 

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I think 300 miles will be the base range going forward for all EVs.
I think that's where the current mentality of people is too, because all people do is think of range range range range.
They don't realize that they drive < 50 miles a day and can easily top off a charge at home if they want.

If you're driving 200+ miles a day, you're doing something wrong.... or really need to hop on a train.


It's a mentality shift. People don't know their own driving habits. They're used to seeing the fuel gauge go past a certain point, which means they need to go to the gas station and fill up.
As charging stations proliferate around the country, places like grocery parking lots or mall parking lots will have charging stations where people can plug in real quick to top off and get a few miles while they shop. It'll slowly eliminate the need for charging at home, if you don't have a spot to charge.

Then for the luxury or high-end brands/models, you'll be looking at the 400-600 mile range as a differentiator. But I don't know if the market is going to play out that way.


Ultium seems to be in that 300-400 mile range already. But those are GM figures. I still want to see EPA figures.
Lucid maxes out at 520 miles EPA currently with their largest battery.
Model S is at 405 miles EPA.
So, we're getting there.

For me, I want 300 minimum on an EV. I've done the math. For my weekend day trips to Napa wine country, I go between 190-225 miles, depending on route. That puts me at the upper range of eTron and I-Pace. Yes, I can go charge somewhere, but I would have to plan for that, and schedules are tight, and there aren't many charging stations in Napa or at wineries. 300 mile range would eliminate the planning worry and range anxiety.
Also, since I don't commute (my company just extended WFH till end of March), I can bide my time until the right EV shows up. But if I did commute, it would be ~55 miles round trip, and there are charging stations at work.
 

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For me, I want 300 minimum on an EV. I've done the math. For my weekend day trips to Napa wine country, I go between 190-225 miles, depending on route. That puts me at the upper range of eTron and I-Pace. Yes, I can go charge somewhere, but I would have to plan for that, and schedules are tight, and there aren't many charging stations in Napa or at wineries. 300 mile range would eliminate the planning worry and range anxiety.
Also, since I don't commute (my company just extended WFH till end of March), I can bide my time until the right EV shows up. But if I did commute, it would be ~55 miles round trip, and there are charging stations at work.
Keep in mind that EVs are less efficient on the highway. An EV with 300 mile EPA range will get about 250 miles highway. Then you need about 80-90% safety factory so in reality you only have about 200-220 miles useable range. So yes you need a 300 mile EV to make that trip safely.
 

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I think 300 miles will be the base range going forward for all EVs.
I think that's where the current mentality of people is too, because all people do is think of range range range range.
They don't realize that they drive < 50 miles a day and can easily top off a charge at home if they want.

If you're driving 200+ miles a day, you're doing something wrong.... or really need to hop on a train.....
Some people don't really have a train option.

But it isn't about your USUAL daily travel anyways. It's about your MAXIMUM daily travel. If I need to drive further one day, I need more range. I need a range to cover any potential driving I may have on ANY day.
 

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So in essence, the Bolt gets ~ 4 miles per kWh. If this article is correct, getting 300 miles with 50 kWh equates to 6 miles/kWh. This is a big increase in efficiency!
5 is about max now.
If they get 6 it'll be a big deal.
 

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Keep in mind that EVs are less efficient on the highway. An EV with 300 mile EPA range will get about 250 miles highway. Then you need about 80-90% safety factory so in reality you only have about 200-220 miles useable range. So yes you need a 300 mile EV to make that trip safely.
Highway 101 in the Bay Area is Noooooo "highway."
It's a glorified parking lot during commute hours. So, that's not a concern. IT's also why I'm considering PHEVs. Because with a ~30 mile range, that would still be doable for my commute.

The drive up to Napa isn't all "highway" either. There's a lot of backroads involved. And a lot of stop and go, depending on when you go. But yes, estimating a safety factor, I'll still need 300 mile range.
I've seen in the eTron groups range from 165-260 miles. It's incredibly inconsistent. Even Taycan is the same way. I just err on the side of caution.
 

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Some people don't really have a train option.

But it isn't about your USUAL daily travel anyways. It's about your MAXIMUM daily travel. If I need to drive further one day, I need more range. I need a range to cover any potential driving I may have on ANY day.
What I mean about "hopping on a train" is that there have to be better options than commuting 200+ miles a day for work. Explore those. Having ICE/hybrid/PHEV/BEV isn't the issue at that point. But if you're in sales or similar profession and need to put those kinds of miles in anyways... then put in some mitigations to make it work best for you. And sometimes, ICE may be the only solution.

Yes. It's your "maximum" daily travel. Which goes to my weekend day trip example.
I've done my math, so I know exactly what I need. ~55 mile round trip for a commute. 230 mile max for weekend day trips. And about 35-40 miles for weekend errands.
When I worked in downtown SF, I had a 5 mile round trip to the train station from home daily.

So 300 mile range allows me all the flexibility I need in 99% of my needs.
 

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I think that's where the current mentality of people is too, because all people do is think of range range range range.
They don't realize that they drive < 50 miles a day and can easily top off a charge at home if they want.

If you're driving 200+ miles a day, you're doing something wrong.... or really need to hop on a train.


Except that there are the 10's, or maybe hundreds of thousands of us out there that work in the Sales, Marketing, Merchandising, some real estate....where an average day for us might be between 50-100 miles of driving, and frequently (a couple times a month if not more) we might have couple hundred mile days.

40,000 miles a year in some of those industries is pretty common, and it simply isn't an average of 150 miles per day. You have as many couple hundred mile days as you do 50 mile days.

Even outside of those industries...I have a brother-in-law that is a high level executive for his company. Once a month he takes 2 days and gets in his car and makes drop-in calls to a variety of their offices across the region, and that is a few hundred miles there.

When you really think about what people do for jobs, there are a lot more people than you think who need a vehicle for work that occasionally can go a few hundreds miles in a day or two.
 

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Except that there are the 10's, or maybe hundreds of thousands of us out there that work in the Sales, Marketing, Merchandising, some real estate....where an average day for us might be between 50-100 miles of driving, and frequently (a couple times a month if not more) we might have couple hundred mile days.

40,000 miles a year in some of those industries is pretty common, and it simply isn't an average of 150 miles per day. You have as many couple hundred mile days as you do 50 mile days.

Even outside of those industries...I have a brother-in-law that is a high level executive for his company. Once a month he takes 2 days and gets in his car and makes drop-in calls to a variety of their offices across the region, and that is a few hundred miles there.

When you really think about what people do for jobs, there are a lot more people than you think who need a vehicle for work that occasionally can go a few hundreds miles in a day or two.
Residential real estate appraisers
 

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People that hope for fundamental change to human nature will be disappointed. Again.

Americans aren't giving up their cars for trains. Or e-bicycles. Or Uber on mass scale.

There are fueling stations everywhere. And many still like their hybrids and diesels that get 600-700 mile ranges.

There will be some people that will be happy to buy a 250 mile range EV for a discount and some willing to pay a premium for 700 mile range EV.

Most will be happy with 300-400 mile range BEVs that don't cost more than a comparable ICEv.

People that need to haul horses cross country won't give up their diesels until there are 1000 Plus mile EPA range trucks that can be recharged conveniently. PHEVs with 50 mile all electric range make a lot of sense here.

BEVs had 2.5% market share last year in the USA. According to Deloitte's “2022 Global Automotive Consumer Study” 5% of US new car buyers want a BEV for their next vehicle and an additional 5% want a PHEV. I expect demand for EVs to outpace supply for the foreseeable future.
 

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Except that there are the 10's, or maybe hundreds of thousands of us out there that work in the Sales, Marketing, Merchandising, some real estate....where an average day for us might be between 50-100 miles of driving, and frequently (a couple times a month if not more) we might have couple hundred mile days.

40,000 miles a year in some of those industries is pretty common, and it simply isn't an average of 150 miles per day. You have as many couple hundred mile days as you do 50 mile days.

Even outside of those industries...I have a brother-in-law that is a high level executive for his company. Once a month he takes 2 days and gets in his car and makes drop-in calls to a variety of their offices across the region, and that is a few hundred miles there.

When you really think about what people do for jobs, there are a lot more people than you think who need a vehicle for work that occasionally can go a few hundreds miles in a day or two.

Yeah. I mentioned that in the post right before yours.
There are some professions where ICE may be the only solution.
That being said, one still has to simply do the math and figure out what works for you.

My friend puts serious mileage in her Model Y doing sales for Luxottica in the Bay Area. She's never had any issues thus far. That can easily be 250 mile days.

Honestly, we're at a point now in the auto industry where people are going to bitch and moan about range, similar to how people bitch and moaned about a 5 hour phone charge when the iPhone was first released. People were used to phones that had a week's worth of charge. And everyone was up in arms about having to "always charge my phone" and "what happens in an emergency" and whatever reason. We still don't have a week's worth of charge on our smartphones, but we're at 12-15 hrs now depending on model. We've gotten used to it. We have battery packs, or extra chargers in our bags and cars, etc. And we're going to get there with cars. There will be needed behavioral changes (got plug in the car ever night or every 2 nights). There will be infrastructure improvements. Gas stations are going to start putting in charging stations. Etc. And in 5-10 years, the majority of EVs on the road will be 300-350 mile range cars with 10-25 minute fast charging capabilities. Higher end/luxury cars will have 400-600 mile ranges with fast charging capabilities.
And voila... the "excuses" for not having an EV will dwindle.

And there might still be a need for ICE in certain market segments. But it will be the exception not the rule.
 

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I think 300 miles will be the base range going forward for all EVs.
I think that's where the current mentality of people is too, because all people do is think of range range range range.
They don't realize that they drive < 50 miles a day and can easily top off a charge at home if they want.

If you're driving 200+ miles a day, you're doing something wrong.... or really need to hop on a train.


It's a mentality shift. People don't know their own driving habits. They're used to seeing the fuel gauge go past a certain point, which means they need to go to the gas station and fill up.
As charging stations proliferate around the country, places like grocery parking lots or mall parking lots will have charging stations where people can plug in real quick to top off and get a few miles while they shop. It'll slowly eliminate the need for charging at home, if you don't have a spot to charge.

Then for the luxury or high-end brands/models, you'll be looking at the 400-600 mile range as a differentiator. But I don't know if the market is going to play out that way.


Ultium seems to be in that 300-400 mile range already. But those are GM figures. I still want to see EPA figures.
Lucid maxes out at 520 miles EPA currently with their largest battery.
Model S is at 405 miles EPA.
So, we're getting there.

For me, I want 300 minimum on an EV. I've done the math. For my weekend day trips to Napa wine country, I go between 190-225 miles, depending on route. That puts me at the upper range of eTron and I-Pace. Yes, I can go charge somewhere, but I would have to plan for that, and schedules are tight, and there aren't many charging stations in Napa or at wineries. 300 mile range would eliminate the planning worry and range anxiety.
Also, since I don't commute (my company just extended WFH till end of March), I can bide my time until the right EV shows up. But if I did commute, it would be ~55 miles round trip, and there are charging stations at work.
I don’t disagree with you on this. People do not understand their own driving habits. Most days I am 20 miles during each work day so about 100 miles a week at most. Weekends vary widely but have several GM products to select from in the family fleet and typically go two or more people per car... So, I might be good with 300 miles of range most of the time.

My issue is today, I have my cake and eat it too. The problem still is I am spoiled, I can fuel up with my 350-450 miles of range in my ICE vehicles and choose to go anywhere. As much as I like the internal combustion engines as a “gear head” and am not an electric guy the freedom to go anywhere at a moments notice with a quick fill up is not something I will give up anytime soon.
 

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I think 300 miles will be the base range going forward for all EVs.
I think that's where the current mentality of people is too, because all people do is think of range range range range.
They don't realize that they drive < 50 miles a day and can easily top off a charge at home if they want.

If you're driving 200+ miles a day, you're doing something wrong.... or really need to hop on a train.


It's a mentality shift. People don't know their own driving habits. They're used to seeing the fuel gauge go past a certain point, which means they need to go to the gas station and fill up.
As charging stations proliferate around the country, places like grocery parking lots or mall parking lots will have charging stations where people can plug in real quick to top off and get a few miles while they shop. It'll slowly eliminate the need for charging at home, if you don't have a spot to charge.

Then for the luxury or high-end brands/models, you'll be looking at the 400-600 mile range as a differentiator. But I don't know if the market is going to play out that way.


Ultium seems to be in that 300-400 mile range already. But those are GM figures. I still want to see EPA figures.
Lucid maxes out at 520 miles EPA currently with their largest battery.
Model S is at 405 miles EPA.
So, we're getting there.

For me, I want 300 minimum on an EV. I've done the math. For my weekend day trips to Napa wine country, I go between 190-225 miles, depending on route. That puts me at the upper range of eTron and I-Pace. Yes, I can go charge somewhere, but I would have to plan for that, and schedules are tight, and there aren't many charging stations in Napa or at wineries. 300 mile range would eliminate the planning worry and range anxiety.
Also, since I don't commute (my company just extended WFH till end of March), I can bide my time until the right EV shows up. But if I did commute, it would be ~55 miles round trip, and there are charging stations at work.
I agree. Three hundred will be plenty of range for the vast majority, especially when so many will have another car at their disposal for that odd longer trip. It would be nice if you could buy a car with different battery ranges that is engineered to also accept more battery range when needed.

I'm sure I will eventually buy a performance car that's EV. I will not drive it on long road trips because I have a larger more comfortable vehicle for that purpose. I don't want to carry around the extra weight of 300 more miles of battery every day for something I probably will never use.

It would be nice then if I did want to take it on a longer trip I could rent a pack that would produce another 300 miles to use for my very infrequent long trips. It will probably be totally unnecessary very quickly so the engineering and possible compromises might not be worth the payback but it would be a cool option.
 

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Yeah. I mentioned that in the post right before yours.
There are some professions where ICE may be the only solution.
That being said, one still has to simply do the math and figure out what works for you.

My friend puts serious mileage in her Model Y doing sales for Luxottica in the Bay Area. She's never had any issues thus far. That can easily be 250 mile days.

Honestly, we're at a point now in the auto industry where people are going to bitch and moan about range, similar to how people bitch and moaned about a 5 hour phone charge when the iPhone was first released. People were used to phones that had a week's worth of charge. And everyone was up in arms about having to "always charge my phone" and "what happens in an emergency" and whatever reason. We still don't have a week's worth of charge on our smartphones, but we're at 12-15 hrs now depending on model. We've gotten used to it. We have battery packs, or extra chargers in our bags and cars, etc. And we're going to get there with cars. There will be needed behavioral changes (got plug in the car ever night or every 2 nights). There will be infrastructure improvements. Gas stations are going to start putting in charging stations. Etc. And in 5-10 years, the majority of EVs on the road will be 300-350 mile range cars with 10-25 minute fast charging capabilities. Higher end/luxury cars will have 400-600 mile ranges with fast charging capabilities.
And voila... the "excuses" for not having an EV will dwindle.

And there might still be a need for ICE in certain market segments. But it will be the exception not the rule.
Yup, the march of progress continues, mgescuro. For that reason I suspect charging will advance dramatically in the many ways you enumerate. I believe that BEV powertrains will advance quickly and significantly in a relatively short time, as will companies that provide the power for charging. I suspect entirely new industries will emerge.

This rapid technological development is also why those who believe Ultium is the pinnacle of BEV powertrain design and that GM therefore will sit atop the EV sales chart by 2025 will likely be disillusioned then.

But given that the BEV push is occurring globally, and not simply a function of a US Federal mandate, and given my economic nationalist predilections, I would prefer American companies lead the charge (ahem).
 

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I don’t disagree with you on this. People do not understand their own driving habits. Most days I am 20 miles during each work day so about 100 miles a week at most. Weekends vary widely but have several GM products to select from in the family fleet and typically go two or more people per car... So, I might be good with 300 miles of range most of the time.
300 mile range should be good for 80-90% of people, I would think, without too much of a compromise of their current driving habits.
On the extreme end, a Prius Prime will go ~640 miles.

My issue is today, I have my cake and eat it too. The problem still is I am spoiled, I can fuel up with my 350-450 miles of range in my ICE vehicles and choose to go anywhere. As much as I like the internal combustion engines as a “gear head” and am not an electric guy the freedom to go anywhere at a moments notice with a quick fill up is not something I will give up anytime soon.
Yeah. My car's trip computer shows 385 miles after a fill up. But honestly, I always fill up at half tank anyways, which is ~2 weeks. I don't drive anywhere these days.
But that's why I go through my "use cases." And that's how I came up with 300 mile range minimum. It'll allow me the best compromise and not have to charge "regularly" based on my driving habits.
 

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We are in the infancy of mainstream BEV's. What will be offered now or in the short term will probably work for most people if they can afford them, otherwise there will be plenty of ICE vehicles to choose from for several years to come. I think BEV chemistry will rapidly change over the next 10 to 20 years and put a lot of fears to rest. Or it won't and ICE options will be around longer.
 

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Yup, the march of progress continues, mgescuro. For that reason I suspect charging will advance dramatically in the many ways you enumerate. I believe that BEV powertrains will advance quickly and significantly in a relatively short time, as will companies that provide the power for charging. I suspect entirely new industries will emerge.

This rapid technological development is also why those who believe Ultium is the pinnacle of BEV powertrain design and that GM therefore will sit atop the EV sales chart by 2025 will likely be disillusioned then.

But given that the BEV push is occurring globally, and not simply a function of a US Federal mandate, and given my economic nationalist predilections, I would prefer American companies lead the charge (ahem).
Yes. new industries that we haven't even thought of today will appear before 2030, and all will support the coming influx of BEV cars and trucks -- personal and commercial and municipal.
The wave is coming.

By 2027, we're going to have "Ultium 2" and "Ultifi v2." Technology is going to drive this industry fast and furious. It's going to leave this industry's head spinning at the end of the day. I wonder what the update cadence is for GM's tech platform? And is it enough to keep pace with Tesla?

The push to BEV is global and driven by China and Europe. But the technology that drives it seems to be coming from the US, which is just fine by me. But it would be nice to see more American car options on the market that are competitive.
 

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Some people don't really have a train option.

But it isn't about your USUAL daily travel anyways. It's about your MAXIMUM daily travel. If I need to drive further one day, I need more range. I need a range to cover any potential driving I may have on ANY day.
Or... if you are traveling say cross country or from one end of the state to the other and want to make the most out of it without a "long +/-" recharge wait or down time, and that aforementioned 300 miles really does become the 200 220 or so(see post #3). That kind of puts a cramp to things as it were.
 

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UItiums genius is in its flexibility. They completely re-invented how vehicles are built. HUMMER EV and Lyriq are so different, yet same platform.
This is where value is for this program.

The fact that uLtifi does not care whether a vehicle has what chemistry or what powertrain, it can run, CT5 and run HUMMER EV, as well as different battery chemistries in the same pack, its incredibly revolutionary.

People can play it down, but, its the small block of electrification.

Lastly, speed to market is insane. HUMMER EV went from concept to market in 2 1/2 years. That is half the time. Lyriq went in 2 years.

At this point, GM needs to tilt back and improve its V8's for power and efficiency, and update the V6, tune up the transmissions, and throw in a twin turbo V6..

Update the diesels too... and they will be rocking into 2035
 
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