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Discussion Starter #1
who would be faster a 66 2+2 421 pontiac or a 72 four barrel 455 pontiac without any mods take your best guess
 

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:blink: The '66 2X2, 428 was a high compression, easy revvin engine. 1972 was the beginnings of 'enviormentally friendly" engines. I bought a '72 455 2bbl (new) in a wagon, on dealer recommendation. It was my first "New Car". I put over 100k miles on it. It was a dog! It would make todays large SUV's seem like economy cars. Acceleration was somewhat less than medicore. With low compression, it wouldn't start below about 20 degrees (F). I had to use a "dipstick" heater. Even with rust proofing it turned into a rust bucket in about 4 years. (Bought in '72 sold in '76 or"7.) Oil leaker from new, dealer's answer "They all do." The "clam shell gate" well wouldn't drain completely, always had water in it. This would freeze in winter and only allow gate to open about 6". Who says things haven't improved with todays cars and trucks?!?! Somebody may have data to prove me wrong but I can't believe anything we built at the advent of low compression engines (including some really big Caddy engines) would outdo that 428. If I remember right, it was sold kind of like a GTO in a Catilina body, offered primarily as a 4 Speed stick with Posi-traction.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
This 1966 Pontiac Catalina 2+2 hardtop shows the basic styling updates of all full size Pontiac models that year. The Catalina 2+2 had bucket seats and a 421 cubic inch, 338hp V8 engine. Verticle vent trim behind the doors was a 2+2 identifier (note) i said 421 not 428
 

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pupp1; You're correct on the 421 rather than 428 and the vertical trim. I believe the console and floor shifter were still part of package. '65 was the update to the new more rounded body. '66 was basicly a tail light and grill "freshening". I don't remember 2X2 in '65 but there could have been?? '66 Catilina 2 Door Hardtop came with cloth bench seats, I think a 389 2BBL, and gear selector on the column. (I owned one of these also, a blue one.) There was also a 2DR post job (then called a 2DR sedan) with base leval "three on the tree". I don't know when they stopped production of these. The next major rebody was in '71 it may have been then, but I would suspect sooner. Question, Did Pontiac ever run a 428? I got married, military, etc. Got away from cars, I think Olds had a 425 and eventually 454's and 455's became more performance oriented. I can't remember a 428, even though I used that number, senior moment I guess.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
yes pontiac did run a 428 im thinking from 64 to 69 gtos some tempest and bonevilles im not sure when they quit but they did run them a few years and they were pretty darn fast to my understanding
 

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The Pontiac engine family uses the same block for all v8s - meaning the 326 and the 455 are based off the same block.

Included in that were 350, 389, 400, 421, 428 and 455 sizes, as well as a 301 which used a lightweight (and weaker) version of the same basic block.

The GTO used the 389 and 400 V8s only until 1970 when the 455 became an option. Similarly, Firebirds used the 326, 350 and 400 V8s until 1971, when the 455 became and option. The 421 and 428 were used in Pontiac full-sized cars and were available in the Grand Prix.
 

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Tone, You've really covered the engines well. I'm amazed that they had that much variation out of a common block!!!!! Where the H*** did they use the 301? In that stupid baby Bonniville they tried to sell when they downsized???? (Talk about a bad marketing decision, that downsizing nearly killed Pontiac)
 

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Originally posted by Bladon@May 16 2004, 04:36 PM
pupp1; You're correct on the 421 rather than 428 and the vertical trim. I believe the console and floor shifter were still part of package. '65 was the update to the new more rounded body. '66 was basicly a tail light and grill "freshening". I don't remember 2X2 in '65 but there could have been?? '66 Catilina 2 Door Hardtop came with cloth bench seats, I think a 389 2BBL, and gear selector on the column. (I owned one of these also, a blue one.) There was also a 2DR post job (then called a 2DR sedan) with base leval "three on the tree". I don't know when they stopped production of these. The next major rebody was in '71 it may have been then, but I would suspect sooner. Question, Did Pontiac ever run a 428? I got married, military, etc. Got away from cars, I think Olds had a 425 and eventually 454's and 455's became more performance oriented. I can't remember a 428, even though I used that number, senior moment I guess.
My brother had a blue two-door '66 Catalina with a 389-2bbl when he was sixteen. He went through three sets of retreads on the back of that car in one summer. God that car could take abuse.
 

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Originally posted by Bladon@May 18 2004, 10:57 AM
Tone, You've really covered the engines well. I'm amazed that they had that much variation out of a common block!!!!! Where the H*** did they use the 301? In that stupid baby Bonniville they tried to sell when they downsized???? (Talk about a bad marketing decision, that downsizing nearly killed Pontiac)
The 301 was mainly created in response to fuel economy concerns. It got wide use through the late 70s and early 80s Pontiac line, including the post '77 "downsized" full-sized cars, the post-'78 G-bodies (Grand Prix, LeMans and Grand Am) and in the Firebird.

In the Firebird, the 301 was available in some years on the Formula and Trans Am. If memory serves me correctly the base 4 bbl 301 made around 150 hp, but there was a T/A 4.9 version that made closer to 170 hp. In 1980 the 301 became the base engine in the Trans Am, with the option of a turbo version making 210 hp. Without modern engine controls, the Turbo 4.9 didn't really live up to its power rating - the previous year's 220 hp T/A 6.6 would easily walk away from it in any kind of acceleration contest.

Still, the 301 (and the smaller version someone else pointed out) were a logical repsonse to the need for a light (and the block is much ligher than the rest of the Pontiac V8 family), reasonably torquey V8 that could squeeze decent fuel economy out of large, heavy cars. The 301 was also the last true "Pontiac" v8 built before Pontiac started using corporate engines.
 

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Eeder one would win if Ditka was drivin, do it woult be close if Ditka had ta get out an push.

Ghrankenstein
 

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Originally posted by Tone+May 19 2004, 02:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Tone @ May 19 2004, 02:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bladon@May 18 2004, 10:57 AM
Tone, You've really covered the engines well.  I'm amazed that they had that much variation out of a common block!!!!!  Where the H*** did they use the 301?  In that stupid baby Bonniville they tried to sell when they downsized????  (Talk about a bad marketing decision, that downsizing nearly killed Pontiac)
The 301 was mainly created in response to fuel economy concerns. It got wide use through the late 70s and early 80s Pontiac line, including the post '77 "downsized" full-sized cars, the post-'78 G-bodies (Grand Prix, LeMans and Grand Am) and in the Firebird.

In the Firebird, the 301 was available in some years on the Formula and Trans Am. If memory serves me correctly the base 4 bbl 301 made around 150 hp, but there was a T/A 4.9 version that made closer to 170 hp. In 1980 the 301 became the base engine in the Trans Am, with the option of a turbo version making 210 hp. Without modern engine controls, the Turbo 4.9 didn't really live up to its power rating - the previous year's 220 hp T/A 6.6 would easily walk away from it in any kind of acceleration contest.

Still, the 301 (and the smaller version someone else pointed out) were a logical repsonse to the need for a light (and the block is much ligher than the rest of the Pontiac V8 family), reasonably torquey V8 that could squeeze decent fuel economy out of large, heavy cars. The 301 was also the last true "Pontiac" v8 built before Pontiac started using corporate engines. [/b][/quote]
The 301 was also used in the Ventura in '77, but when they came out with the Phoenix in '78, I believe all the X-bodies used Chevy small-blocks.

And in 1980, the Grand Prix SJ and Grand Am were available with a non-turbo version of the turbo 301, according to the brochure. I guess that would amount to a knock sensor and perhaps heavier internal. C&D listed the horsepower unchanged at 150, and for some reason, it was considerably slower than the '79 301.
 

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Originally posted by Rex Raider@May 19 2004, 02:03 PM
Who would win in a race between the Flash and Superman?
The flash would at first, but then Superman would reverse the spin of the earth and turn back time, thus giving himself a chance to win.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Originally posted by Rex Raider@May 19 2004, 07:03 PM
Who would win in a race between the Flash and Superman?
i would have to say superman would win it would be like a Z06 racing a mustang
 

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To answer the original question - it depends which version of each engine.

The 421 came in four versions in 1966: 338, 350 ,356 and 376 hp. The 455 came in two versions in 1972: 250 hp or 300 hp (H.O.). However, by 1972, engines were rated in net, not gross, terms. Meaning the 250 hp 455 might actually make more power (and likely more torque) than the 338 hp 421.

All that said, I'd much rather have a '66 2+2 than a full-sized '72! The top 376 hp cars are fairly quick - C&D tested a Royal Bobcat-prepared version and got 0-60 in something less than 4 seconds. But even in mild 338 hp form, they were a great looking, great sounding car.

Now, if that '72 455 was in a GTO or Firebird, that might change my mind (and it would probably be quickest!)
 

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Originally posted by Rex Raider@May 19 2004, 12:03 PM
Who would win in a race between the Flash and Superman?
DC Comics had that race already. Superman won. I think he was driving that Catalina 2+2. I know that my '70 was whoosh quick!
 
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