When will GM actually do it? Bu/CTS/'clave/Sclade/vette all come close...

2235 Views 45 Replies 22 Participants Last post by DuSpinnst, Apr 29, 2008

CobaltSScrazy

Discussion Starter · Apr 27, 2008 (Edited)

When will GM finally return back to their rightful place as the pre-eminent automaker in the world. World Class product top to bottom all brands bar none. When will GM make a Chevy/Saturn/Pontiac that BAR NONE is clearly superior and doesn't lack and actually differentiates from Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Subaru/Mitsu/Ford/Chrysler/Kia/Hyundai/etc.???

I want a no excuses the XXX GM product is CLEARLY superior to ANY other brands product in the same price range, value, features, resale and perceived reliability/quality/etc.

Malibu hasn't done it nor has enclave or CTS or Corvette or Tahoe or Aura. There are Still options, features, MPG's, etc. that the competition has.

I am longing for the day that GM is able to say BAR NONE (no creative marketing involved) The Cobalt and Malibu are clearly superior in every way shape and form to a Corrolla or Camry Civic or Honda. The BLS, CTS, XTS, BRX and XLR are CLEARLY SUPERIOR to said BMW/Mercedes (screw Audi/Lexus/Infiniti/Lincoln...lets be honest BMW and MB are THE competition) competition and ULS outclasses the S class.

Its REALLY SAD, disappointing, and discouraging to see all the progress GM has made but yet they are still not where they "should" be (I hate using the word should). It pains me everyday I see a Camry, Altima, Z, GL, M, E, 5, M, C instead of a GM product

. I SO WANT for GM TO be """THE""" Best bar none. When (if EVER) will it happen?

Guys, enlighten me, CTS, AURA, Malibu, Tahoe, Escalade, Enclave, XFE Cobalt, ASTRA, G8 all encourage me, but they all still lack compared to the across-the-board-competition. Who really buys GM products outside of GM loyalists? I'd bet 85% of GM products purchased are by people that have mostly bought GM's...

kind of reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y84PLicEnns&feature=related

like the USA getting overshadowed by China and its soon to be time as THE world SUPERPOWER and America's ending pre-eminent status...GM has that same feeling, JMO.

Regards and Respectfully Yours,

CobaltSS

I believe the company closest to doing this is Hyundai...as of right now...

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I-Love-Pontiac

· #2 · Apr 27, 2008

In order to be the best at everything, you have to have a phenomenal group of workers and a ton of money. All things considered, I think it's impressive GM has managed to come out with as many class leading vehicles as they have.

Plus it's very VERY rare for a company produce the best product from any way you look at it. Apple comes to mind... but that's about it.

nsap

· #3 · Apr 27, 2008

I disagree.

The Malibu, CTS, Enclave, and G8 are all at the top of their respective classes. They rival the best of the best.

GM has said on many occasions that the product revitalization will not be complete until 2011 model-year.

2009 Malibu: best-in-class fuel economy, only 6-speed 4-cylinder in the segment, already rivals Accord handling...

CTS: the awards speak for themselves.

Enclave (all Lambda's): 290 HP, best-in-class fuel economy, best-in-class interior volume...what more do you want?

G8: Comparisons to the 550Li speak for themselves.

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AmericanRevolution

· #4 · Apr 27, 2008

Kinda hard to have a vehicle these days that completely and utterly blow every other car out of the water simply because, rather people want to admit it or not, pretty much every car out there is good. If you don't make a quality product, you dont deserve to be in business - Dodge needs to pack up if they can't improve their cars because they ARE bad - and also the exception)

A Malibu that completely and utterly blows the Accord and company out of the water isn't easy. Look at how Toyota failed. Notice how no one is really blowing the top cars out of the water? Exactly.

Now, could they improve? Absolutely. The Malibu's interior still is a bit to cheap for my taste. The Astra needs more power. However, keep in mind the Lamba twins are about the best out there. IMO, the Mazda's are about the only ones on par that are direct competitors. The MDX is overrated and unimpressive.

Also, now GM vehicles are among leaders in their class in gas mileage. Again, the Lambda's are better than any other 8 passanger SUV/crossover on the market in here.

Improvements can be made, but it's not easy simply to "make the best, bar none, out of reach of everything" simply because most vehicles from almost all brands are so good as they are.

In todays market, its more about perception than it is reality. That's whats holding GM back from even greater gains.

GM builds cars on par or better in many categories now. GM isn't the only one that still has some weaknesses. Toyota, Honda, Ford, Infiniti, etc all have things they could improve on. Tweak those things and get some good marketing to start changing perception faster is what needs to be done.

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Randiglio

· #5 · Apr 27, 2008

nsap said:
I disagree.

The Malibu, CTS, Enclave, and G8 are all at the top of their respective classes. They rival the best of the best.

GM has said on many occasions that the product revitalization will not be complete until 2011 model-year.

2009 Malibu: best-in-class fuel economy, only 6-speed 4-cylinder in the segment, already rivals Accord handling...

CTS: the awards speak for themselves.

Enclave (all Lambda's): 290 HP, best-in-class fuel economy, best-in-class interior volume...what more do you want?

G8: Comparisons to the 550Li speak for themselves.

What he said!

AmericanRevolution

· #6 · Apr 27, 2008

I-Love-Pontiac said:
In order to be the best at everything, you have to have a phenomenal group of workers and a ton of money. All things considered, I think it's impressive GM has managed to come out with as many class leading vehicles as they have.

Plus it's very VERY rare for a company produce the best product from any way you look at it. Apple comes to mind... but that's about it.

I dont like Apple computers. But its because I'm used to Windows and the games I like/used to like are Windows. Perception flawed? Maybe. I think they now allow you to play games that are on Windows on their comps, but not sure.

Case-in-point. Perception.

AmericanRevolution

· #7 · Apr 27, 2008

nsap said:
I disagree.

The Malibu, CTS, Enclave, and G8 are all at the top of their respective classes. They rival the best of the best.

GM has said on many occasions that the product revitalization will not be complete until 2011 model-year.

2009 Malibu: best-in-class fuel economy, only 6-speed 4-cylinder in the segment, already rivals Accord handling...

CTS: the awards speak for themselves.

Enclave (all Lambda's): 290 HP, best-in-class fuel economy, best-in-class interior volume...what more do you want?

G8: Comparisons to the 550Li speak for themselves.

:clap:

CobaltSScrazy

Discussion Starter · #8 · Apr 27, 2008 (Edited)

nsap said:
I disagree.

The Malibu, CTS, Enclave, and G8 are all at the top of their respective classes. They rival the best of the best.

GM has said on many occasions that the product revitalization will not be complete until 2011 model-year.

2009 Malibu: best-in-class fuel economy, only 6-speed 4-cylinder in the segment, already rivals Accord handling...

CTS: the awards speak for themselves.

Enclave (all Lambda's): 290 HP, best-in-class fuel economy, best-in-class interior volume...what more do you want?

G8: Comparisons to the 550Li speak for themselves.

each of those cars has deficiencies, lacks, desires, etc.

I'm waiting for Mgescuro's imput on this also.

Why do 400,000 people EACH buy Accord and Camry's and not Malibus and Fusions???

What about the rest of the lineup, seriously!?!?!?

Aveo, Cobalt, Impala, A minivan, Colorado, G6, Solstice/Sky, Torrent/GMC version, Vue, ASTRA, Lacrosse, Lucerne, DTS, lack of BLS, Mid size SUV's, 93, 95, 97, h2/3/4, etc.

CobaltSS

And you all know how staunch of a \GM supporter I am...I should have known (not you NSAP) the bandwagon would get out and hate on me...sigh.

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EldoFan

· #9 · Apr 27, 2008

CobaltSScrazy said:
When will GM finally return back to their rightful place as the pre-eminent automaker in the world. World Class product top to bottom all brands bar none. When will GM make a Chevy/Saturn/Pontiac that BAR NONE is clearly superior and doesn't lack and actually differentiates from Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Subaru/Mitsu/Ford/Chrysler/Kia/Hyundai/etc.???

When hell freezes.....and/or Denise Richards has my baby

nsap

· #10 · Apr 27, 2008

CobaltSScrazy said:
each of those cars has deficiencies, lacks, desires, etc.

I'm waiting for Mgescuro's imput on this also.

Why do 400,000 people EACH buy Accord and Camry's and not Malibus and Fusions???

What about the rest of the lineup, seriously!?!?!?

Aveo, Cobalt, Impala, A minivan, Colorado, G6, Solstice/Sky, Torrent/GMC version, Vue, ASTRA, Lacrosse, Lucerne, DTS, lack of BLS, Mid size SUV's, 93, 95, 97, h2/3/4, etc.

CobaltSS

And you all know how staunch of a \GM supporter I am...

Every car on the market has lacks/deficiencies. Show me one that doesn't. In today's market, where we have a bazillion models, there is NEVER going to be one vehicle in any given segment that totally dominates all others. The competition is also going to be right there, offering something very close to being "just as good." The days of having a certain brand or model dominate a segment are long, long gone. So if you are waiting for that, you will be waiting for awhile.

Perception. GM or Ford could build the friggin holy grail of all midsize sedans and 300K sheep would still buy a Camry or Accord. Most American car buyers are sheep buyers...they buy "what they have heard is good." This will take years to change, not a few months.

As I said, GM has stated that the whole lineup will not be fully complete until 2011 model-year. They are going to have some crap products until then. Actually, they will probably have some we don't like after that too...that is a hazard of being a huge company with many product lines. If you want to donate GM a few billion, I'm sure they would be thrilled to update the products you listed. GM spent $100 million just to bring the Astra here with what little changes they made...that gives you an idea of the costs associated with this business.

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AmericanRevolution

· #11 · Apr 27, 2008

CobaltSScrazy said:
each of those cars has deficiencies, lacks, desires, etc.

I'm waiting for Mgescuro's imput on this also.

Why do 400,000 people EACH buy Accord and Camry's and not Malibus and Fusions???

What about the rest of the lineup, seriously!?!?!?

Aveo, Cobalt, Impala, A minivan, Colorado, G6, Solstice/Sky, Torrent/GMC version, Vue, ASTRA, Lacrosse, Lucerne, DTS, lack of BLS, Mid size SUV's, 93, 95, 97, h2/3/4, etc.

CobaltSS

And you all know how staunch of a \GM supporter I am...I should have known (not you NSAP) the bandwagon would get out and hate on me...sigh.

The Sky, for what it is and its price, is great. If you want to take on another $5-10K in cost, you'll get a better interior, etc. But c'mon, for its price, its great.

Now, sure, there's alotta other vehicles that need help, but I dont doubt they'll be addressed soon enough now that GM is getting on a roll.

And the reason for people buying the Camcord and not the Malibu or Aura?

Go ask those owners. Its called perception.

Unfortunately.

I'm critical of GM too, trust me. I jump on them alot. But I also give credit where its deserved, and unfortunately you picked on some of the vehicles where credit is deserved. They are just as good or better than their competition.

This is the first time even my parents actually consider GM to be good since the 60's. But unfortunately its going to take more time for others to start realizing that, too.

FenwickHockey65

· #12 · Apr 27, 2008

I agree with everything nsap's said. GM really has improved over the past few years. Many of its cars are class leading.
However, there's always room for improvement, and there's a LOT of that room with GM. While it's not a big problem for some of us, fuel efficiency is key in today's market. People want attractive but fuel efficient cars, and luckily, GM's gotten the fuel efficiency part down with the Cobalt XFE. Now they need to work on the looks and design, make the Cobalt into a car that everybody wants like the Malibu.
Also, perception needs to change. People need to sit up and take notice of the new GM. We don't make only gas guzzling trucks and SUVs anymore. We also make fuel efficient and good looking cars and crossovers. Quality products, awesome designs, and plenty of advertising will bring GM back up in no time.

mgescuro

· #13 · Apr 27, 2008

CobaltSScrazy said:
When will GM finally return back to their rightful place as the pre-eminent automaker in the world. World Class product top to bottom all brands bar none. When will GM make a Chevy/Saturn/Pontiac that BAR NONE is clearly superior and doesn't lack and actually differentiates from Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Subaru/Mitsu/Ford/Chrysler/Kia/Hyundai/etc.???

I want a no excuses the XXX GM product is CLEARLY superior to ANY other brands product in the same price range, value, features, resale and perceived reliability/quality/etc.

I believe that will never happen. GM is too financially constrained. GM continues to build to a balance sheet. GM has too many brands. GM continues to overlap. Lack of focus is found across the board.

Truly differentiates? Never. I believe we'll continue to have 3-4 cars at GM that will do the job of 1 car. The only difference is that these 3-4 cars will be better than the ones today.

But will Malibu ever claim the sales lead? Never. Because GM will create Lacrosse, G6, and Aura, that will inevitably steal sales from Malibu.

Will CTS ever be considered more than the 5-series? Maybe. Too early to tell. But apparently, GM is backing away from significant changes to the CTS MCE. So, we'll probably wait for the 3rd Gen CTS. By that time it'll be CT5 or some other doofus of a name.

Will Escalade ever compete with Range Rover? No. Because it's a cash cow for GM, and they'll only update it as necessary. Tata's already making motions for a $150K+ Land Rover. It is leaving Cadillac and Escalade in the dust.

GM will have a lot of great cars. They'll have a lot of great designs. But there will be the overlap. There will internal competition. And that inherent deficiency at GM will forever hold them back from being the absolute best they can ever be.

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EldoFan

· #14 · Apr 27, 2008

mgescuro said:
I believe that will never happen. GM is too financially constrained. GM continues to build to a balance sheet. GM has too many brands. GM continues to overlap. Lack of focus is found across the board.

Truly differentiates? Never. I believe we'll continue to have 3-4 cars at GM that will do the job of 1 car. The only difference is that these 3-4 cars will be better than the ones today.

But will Malibu ever claim the sales lead? Never. Because GM will create Lacrosse, G6, and Aura, that will inevitably steal sales from Malibu.

Will CTS ever be considered more than the 5-series? Maybe. Too early to tell. But apparently, GM is backing away from significant changes to the CTS MCE. So, we'll probably wait for the 3rd Gen CTS. By that time it'll be CT5 or some other doofus of a name.

Will Escalade ever compete with Range Rover? No. Because it's a cash cow for GM, and they'll only update it as necessary. Tata's already making motions for a $150K+ Land Rover. It is leaving Cadillac and Escalade in the dust.

GM will have a lot of great cars. They'll have a lot of great designs. But there will be the overlap. There will internal competition. And that inherent deficiency at GM will forever hold them back from being the absolute best they can ever be.

I think this basically sums up your question pretty well CobaltSS........

FenwickHockey65

· #15 · Apr 27, 2008

I think GM just needs to differentiate the brands enough. We've gotten rid of rebadging for the most part, now let's get rid of rebranding. I'm not in favor of axing any one brand because I believe that each one has its own focus. For example, an entry level Chevy should not have the same options as an upscale GMC, and a GMC should not have the same options as a Cadillac. Pontiac should not have to compete with Chevy for affordable performance cars (and yes, I love the Firebird, but I'm sorry, a Firebird will not do well with a Camaro in the mix). Buick should be entry-level luxury, affordable yet luxurious. Then you'll have Cadillac as GM's ultimate luxury brand, Hummer for those who need to prove their manliness ( :lmao: ), and Saturn and Saab as GM's European-inspired brands. Only Saturn would be more trendy to appeal to young drivers.

mgescuro

· #16 · Apr 27, 2008

FenwickHockey65 said:
I think GM just needs to differentiate the brands enough. We've gotten rid of rebadging for the most part, now let's get rid of rebranding. I'm not in favor of axing any one brand because I believe that each one has its own focus. For example, an entry level Chevy should not have the same options as an upscale GMC, and a GMC should not have the same options as a Cadillac. Pontiac should not have to compete with Chevy for affordable performance cars (and yes, I love the Firebird, but I'm sorry, a Firebird will not do well with a Camaro in the mix). Buick should be entry-level luxury, affordable yet luxurious. Then you'll have Cadillac as GM's ultimate luxury brand, Hummer for those who need to prove their manliness ( :lmao: ), and Saturn and Saab as GM's European-inspired brands. Only Saturn would be more trendy to appeal to young drivers.

Let's play devil's advocate here.
Say it is 2010. Saturn and Opel co-launch the Aura/Insignia. All is happy with the world. Blah blah. Even assume that Aura is unchanged from the European Insignia. OK?
Then the new Malibu launches. How different do we expect it to be?

Do we expect the same driving and steering precision of the very European Aura?
Do we expect the same engines and performance as the European Aura?
Do we expect the same option set?

If you answered "Yes" to any of those 3, then you just proved my point about overlap.
You're thinking, why CAN'T the Malibu have all those things too?
Well, because it's not supposed to, that's why! One should be tuned for "American tastes." One should be tuned for "European tastes." But it's not fair to leave the Malibu behind is it??
Then, what's to stop a Malibu SS from adopting the Aura's "better" characteristics?

FenwickHockey65

· #17 · Apr 27, 2008

mgescuro said:
Let's play devil's advocate here.
Say it is 2010. Saturn and Opel co-launch the Aura/Insignia. All is happy with the world. Blah blah. Even assume that Aura is unchanged from the European Insignia. OK?
Then the new Malibu launches. How different do we expect it to be?

Do we expect the same driving and steering precision of the very European Aura?
Do we expect the same engines and performance as the European Aura?
Do we expect the same option set?

If you answered "Yes" to any of those 3, then you just proved my point about overlap.
You're thinking, why CAN'T the Malibu have all those things too?
Well, because it's not supposed to, that's why! One should be tuned for "American tastes." One should be tuned for "European tastes." But it's not fair to leave the Malibu behind is it??
Then, what's to stop a Malibu SS from adopting the Aura's "better" characteristics?

True, very true. I think each car should be aimed at whatever demographic. The Aura's always seemed (to me, at least) as a more upscale alternative to the Malibu, although as you said, not so much anymore. Perhaps the Aura should always remain an upscale alternative to the Malibu, with more standard/optional features, better powertrains, but with a greater MSRP.

mgescuro

· #18 · Apr 27, 2008

FenwickHockey65 said:
True, very true. I think each car should be aimed at whatever demographic. The Aura's always seemed (to me, at least) as a more upscale alternative to the Malibu, although as you said, not so much anymore. Perhaps the Aura should always remain an upscale alternative to the Malibu, with more standard/optional features, better powertrains, but with a greater MSRP.

Correct. Aura should be premium and more upscale than Malibu. It should be sportier and offer more precise driving than the Malibu. It should offer more powerful engines than Malibu. It's suspension should be tighter than the Malibu because that's what you'd expect from a European sedan.

Malibu should be the general, all-purpose family car. It should offer great value and offer a significant list of options for families who want more but still a value.

Aura and Malibu can co-exist in the same market. But their target markets should be so different as to minimize if not eliminate any overlap. That's the way to maximize sales.

Now throw in the Lacrosse, offering American luxury. Significantly better interior than Aura, and softer sprung but not lazy driving experience, softer and cushier seats. Then you have 3 cars that attract 3 separate markets.

Now what to do with G6? Or 9-3? Or 9-5? Well, if G6 moves to Alpha, then problem solved.

9-5. What to do? What to do? How do you stop the 9-5 from overlapping with Insignia?
What's the key to differentiation? Improved safety features? More power? BioPower? Sport suspension? Better transmission?
I don't know. That's been a big question mark for me.

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FenwickHockey65

· #19 · Apr 27, 2008

mgescuro said:
Correct. Aura should be premium and more upscale than Malibu. It should be sportier and offer more precise driving than the Malibu. It should offer more powerful engines than Malibu. It's suspension should be tighter than the Malibu because that's what you'd expect from a European sedan.

Malibu should be the general, all-purpose family car. It should offer great value and offer a significant list of options for families who want more but still a value.

Aura and Malibu can co-exist in the same market. But their target markets should be so different as to minimize if not eliminate any overlap. That's the way to maximize sales.

Now throw in the Lacrosse, offering American luxury. Significantly better interior than Aura, and softer sprung but not lazy driving experience, softer and cushier seats. Then you have 3 cars that attract 3 separate markets.

Now what to do with G6? Or 9-3? Or 9-5? Well, if G6 moves to Alpha, then problem solved.

9-5. What to do? What to do? How do you stop the 9-5 from overlapping with Insignia?
What's the key to differentiation? Improved safety features? More power? BioPower? Sport suspension? Better transmission?
I don't know. That's been a big question mark for me.

The G6 moving to Alpha would definitely solve all our problems. But it could remain on Epsilon only with a more sport-tuned powertrain. With Malibu as an all around family car, Aura as a upscale European sedan, and G6 as a performance first, luxury sedan second vehicle.
Saab's...a problem. I don't know what to do with them either.

BigAls87Z28

· #20 · Apr 27, 2008

Its not going to happen like that. And I think that GM sees teh mid size market as a just a general area where people dont care much about the fine tuning that each car gets, but how it looks in and out.
Who will pick up on the European ride of the Aura, the American Malibu, Sporty G6, and Luxurious LaX? Just car rags and enthuisasts. But I dont think that to maximize the sales of the cars, they need to offer unique trims. Example happens right now. Accord and Camry. When you compare teh two, they are 2 totaly different cars, but fight for #1 all the time.

What they need to do is start with Malibu. Thats the starting point, and that needs to be compeditive with Accord and Camry. But Aura, G6, and LaX will always overlap at some level with the other.
What will seperate a top line G6 vs Aura? What luxury items will Aura not get that LaX will? Will a loaded Malibu be a better value then Aura? GM has a lot of brands, so there is going to be overlap. They need to overlap the areas that people want and what is expected.
I think that now allowing the Malibu to have something from LaX or Aura or G6 will hold the car back. I think the seperation needs to come into the two things that people will feel. Design and Drive. Someone getting into a LaX will notice the Quiet Tung, the soft touch leather dash, the unique design, the wood inlays, etc etc. Driving, steering should feel firm but not vibrate communicate the bad things in the road. Perhaps a Magnaride system in top level cars?
Aura should have a more European technical lay out, comfortable but sporty. Steering input should be boosted over LaX. Firm brakes, tighter ride, and overall sporty light feel through the chassis.
G6 should have a pure sport interior. Something basic inside, but attractive. ZERO WOOD for the love of God no wood in any Pontiac from here till the end of the brand. Metalic trim, Carbon Fiber simulate, make Pontiac the first brand with different metalic trim options? Most companies have ONE metal trim. Polished metal, Stainless Steal, Chrome, Pewter, and then add in Carbon Fiber trim or Piano Black. Guage pod needs to be traditional Pontiac, Twin Pod Tach/Speedo surounded by aux guages. Ride needs to be tuned a notch above the Aura, with more feedback through the steering wheel. Large wheels, and larger brakes standard.
and Malibu. Keep the design in and out, and just evolve from there. The new Malibu is aboslutly beautiful, in and out. If everything was tweeked a notch or two from where it is now, it would be golden. Ride, handilng is spot on where it needs to be. Chevy, you have a great thing going on now, just evolve the design!!

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