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In a letter seen by Reuters, Democrats urged Pelosi to retain the credit supported by the UAW and AFL-CIO.


October 12, 2021 03:35 PM UPDATED 15 HOURS AGO
DAVID SHEPARDSON
Reuters

WASHINGTON -- More than 100 U.S. House lawmakers on Tuesday urged Speaker Nancy Pelosi to keep a $4,500 tax credit incentive for union-built electric vehicles in a massive spending bill.
In a letter seen by Reuters, Democrats urged Pelosi to retain the credit supported by the UAW and AFL-CIO. The $4,500 credit would provide a significant boost to Detroit's three automakers -- General Motors, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler-parent Stellantis.

"We strongly support leveling the playing field between non-union and unionized workforces by including the added $4,500 incentive to support union-made EVs," said the letter led by Rep. Thomas Suozzi, a New York Democrat.

Suozzi said the incentives "help guarantee that working men and women are an integral part of that success story."
Pelosi's office declined to comment.

Tesla Inc. and foreign automakers do not have unions representing assembly workers in the United States and many have fought efforts to organize U.S. plants.

Last month, 12 major foreign automakers, including Toyota Motor Corp., Volkswagen AG, Honda Motor, Hyundai Motor and Nissan Motor, urged Democrats to reject the proposed $4,500 tax incentive.

A House panel last month approved legislation to boost EV credits to up to $12,500 per vehicle, including $4,500 for union-made vehicles and $500 for U.S.-made batteries.

The tax credits, which are part of a proposed $3.5 trillion spending bill, would cost $15.6 billion over 10 years.
“The House Labor Caucus understands that we need jobs of the future to be as good or better than the union jobs they replace," UAW President Ray Curry said in a statement. "The House members who signed this letter are standing up for UAW members and America’s middle class by helping to ensure that our investment through tax credits in electric vehicles leads to good paying union jobs in the United States.”

The EV proposal also does away with phasing out tax credits after automakers hit 200,000 electric vehicles sold, which would make GM eligible again, along with Tesla, although Tesla would not receive the $4,500 credit.

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I'm torn, I like the idea as it "sticks it" to the foreign makes. But at the same time, I don't like giving unions a leg up. I feel like I'd be subsidizing corruption.

I'm surprised VW is against this - I thought they were all for unions.
 

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"We strongly support leveling the playing field between non-union and unionized workforces by including the added $4,500 incentive to support union-made EVs," said the letter led by Rep. Thomas Suozzi, a New York Democrat.
If Rep. Suozzi really wants to "level the playing field between non-union and unionized workforces", he should support abolishing unions. Problem solved!
 

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Suozzi said the incentives "help guarantee that working men and women are an integral part of that success story."

As if non-union workers don't do just as good of a job, if not better then the UAW shills.
 

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I'm torn, I like the idea as it "sticks it" to the foreign makes. But at the same time, I don't like giving unions a leg up. I feel like I'd be subsidizing corruption.

I'm surprised VW is against this - I thought they were all for unions.
Don't be torn. F the unions. There is no playing field to be evened. Most of companies don't have unions because the workers voted against them. They don't need a union to stand up for them because they have good work ethics, good pay, and good benefits already. The unions are dying and looking for anything to help keep them alive. This is another welfare handout to corrupt and lazy workers who don't like being responsible for their actions.
 

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Don't be torn. F the unions. There is no playing field to be evened. Most of companies don't have unions because the workers voted against them. They don't need a union to stand up for them because they have good work ethics, good pay, and good benefits already. The unions are dying and looking for anything to help keep them alive. This is another welfare handout to corrupt and lazy workers who don't like being responsible for their actions.
True, I don't care for the unions, but at the same time this IS a major benefit to GM and Ford, which I do very much want to see. There may not be any official detriments to Ford/GM selling in Japan & Germany, but in reality I don't think Germany and Japan have level playing fields.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Japans level playing field Japanese v Japanese
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GM 128 sales 50 Ford's all v8's not included don't get any Japanese taxpayers EV money onv8's, US Government will lose out big time on Japanese taxpayers EV incentives sent back Detroit made profits US on cars sold in Japan, US Government won't collect a dime in corporation taxes from Japanese taxpayers EV car incentives.

How can you say that Japan buys load of American top 3 car in September, the Japanese top are all American US big 3 brands, I THINK NOT, South Korean Kia/Hyundai are two brands that leach worldwide billions dollars of clash for clunkers free taxpayers money, GM are worst hit because they are one of the few that bother with South Korea, all they get is huge billion dollar losses sent back to Detroit ever year for employing expensive overpaid greedy South Koreans just for a couple thousand FWD Spark sales every month losing billions on the roof every year.

It's about time US Government backed GM & Ford looked after No1 for a change if you give it to Mopar the money end up as profits at Stellantis that the Dutch company has it's HQ/financial domicile in the Netherlands get to profit from the corporation taxes, US taxpayers money EV discounts & Ram/Jeep profit boosts the standard of living Dutch people, US taxpayer funded EV discounts funding Toyota EV profits get sent back to Tokyo to be taxed improving the living standards of the Japanese people in Japan who don't touch American braded cars.
 

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True, I don't care for the unions, but at the same time this IS a major benefit to GM and Ford, which I do very much want to see.
I'd like to see that too, but if GM and Ford want to become leaders in the U.S. electric vehicle market, they should EARN that status by offering products and services superior to the competition. Not by expanding the roster of government handouts they receive.

Removing the parasite known as UAW from their operations - by any means necessary - would be an appropriate starting point for both companies.
 

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Japans level playing field Japanese v Japanese
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GM 128 sales 50 Ford's all v8's not included don't get any Japanese taxpayers EV money onv8's, US Government will lose out big time on Japanese taxpayers EV incentives sent back Detroit made profits US on cars sold in Japan, US Government won't collect a dime in corporation taxes from Japanese taxpayers EV car incentives.

How can you say that Japan buys load of American top 3 car in September, the Japanese top are all American US big 3 brands, I THINK NOT, South Korean Kia/Hyundai are two brands that leach worldwide billions dollars of clash for clunkers free taxpayers money, GM are worst hit because they are one of the few that bother with South Korea, all they get is huge billion dollar losses sent back to Detroit ever year for employing expensive overpaid greedy South Koreans just for a couple thousand FWD Spark sales every month losing billions on the roof every year.

It's about time US Government backed GM & Ford looked after No1 for a change if you give it to Mopar the money end up as profits at Stellantis that the Dutch company has it's HQ/financial domicile in the Netherlands get to profit from the corporation taxes, US taxpayers money EV discounts & Ram/Jeep profit boosts the standard of living Dutch people, US taxpayer funded EV discounts funding Toyota EV profits get sent back to Tokyo to be taxed improving the living standards of the Japanese people in Japan who don't touch American braded cars.
Well said!
 

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I'd like to see that too, but if GM and Ford want to become leaders in the U.S. electric vehicle market, they should EARN that status by offering products and services superior to the competition. Not by expanding the roster of government handouts they receive.

Removing the parasite known as UAW from their operations - by any means necessary - would be an appropriate starting point for both companies.
The UAW isn't going away from GM/Ford anytime soon and the foreign makes aren't letting them into their plants either. While I don't like them, nothing but GM/Ford going out of business will get rid of them. At the same time the Japanese have a very unfair playing field, I think it is virtually impossible for GM/Ford to come out with something vastly superior to the Japanese without it being more expensive than the Japanese makes.

I like this as it is a subsidy for American makes without the government coming out and saying that. Honda/Toyota and the rest are welcome to bring in the unions and get the credit. Let's see how much this credit is worth to them.
 

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I like this as it is a subsidy for American makes without the government coming out and saying that. Honda/Toyota and the rest are welcome to bring in the unions and get the credit. Let's see how much this credit is worth to them.
Stellantis N.V., a European company, qualifies for the credit, assuming they eventually assemble EVs at one of their U.S. plants. But Rivian Automotive LLC, an American company, does not. As such, it's not targeted specifically to American makes.

And in any case, this tax credit - like any and all subsidies for EV, EVSE, and related components - doesn't really help Ford and GM either. When government picks "winners" and "losers", even the winners lose.

What the $4,500 tax credit really subsidizes is exactly what TruckMan mentioned in post #5: corruption, laziness, and irresponsibility.
 

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Stellantis N.V., a European company, qualifies for the credit, assuming they eventually assemble EVs at one of their U.S. plants. But Rivian Automotive LLC, an American company, does not. As such, it's not targeted specifically to American makes.

And in any case, this tax credit - like any and all subsidies for EV, EVSE, and related components - doesn't really help Ford and GM either. When government picks "winners" and "losers", even the winners lose.

What the $4,500 tax credit really subsidizes is exactly what TruckMan mentioned in post #5: corruption, laziness, and irresponsibility.
I will be really surprised if any foreign make pushes to unionize their plants to obtain the subsidy - I don't think this will help the unions at all, it is a back door way to help GM/Ford.

Yes, this doesn't help Tesla/Rivian, but it certainly does help GM/Ford. Why do you say this will not help GM/Ford? How will they lose?

This helps the unions only indirectly as more customers = more job security and possibly a bigger bonus. To me, what you are saying is that GM/Ford shouldn't try for a successful vehicle at all (subsidy or no subsidy) because they benefit the unions.

As I said above, I see this as leveling the playing field with foreign competition that hasn't played fair for decades.
 

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Why do you say this will not help GM/Ford? How will they lose?
The same way that social welfare recipients lose: government handouts act as an impediment to effective restructuring and improvement - personal behavior in the case of social welfare recipients, operations management in the case of businesses like GM and Ford.

Additionally, when government is paying the piper, it can call the tune. And it will do both of those things with the proposed $4,500 tax credit incentive for union-built electric vehicles. The federal government dangles the tax credit to companies with UAW represented plants on one hand, while strangling those very companies' competitiveness by encouraging the UAW's continued existence on the other.
 

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This is a pure political play.

It has extremely little value except for the democrats who are seen as helping US auto makers and union workers when in fact they are not and for pushing foreign auto makers into the hands of republicans who have historically been for American manufacturing (without unions of course but also for very cheap wages).

That's it...nothing else...
 

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This is a pure political play.

It has extremely little value except for the democrats who are seen as helping US auto makers and union workers when in fact they are not and for pushing foreign auto makers into the hands of republicans who have historically been for American manufacturing (without unions of course but also for very cheap wages).

That's it...nothing else...
It's indeed a political play; it goes like this:
  1. UAW takes in dues from its members
  2. UAW distributes part of those funds to left wing extremist Democrats for their congressional election campaigns
  3. Left wing extremist Democrats get elected
  4. Left wing extremist Democrats pay back their UAW cronies by proposing legislation that perpetuates UAW's existence
  5. Uncontrolled centralized government power grows further
  6. Repeat Steps 1 - 5
 

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The same way that social welfare recipients lose: government handouts act as an impediment to effective restructuring and improvement - personal behavior in the case of social welfare recipients, operations management in the case of businesses like GM and Ford.

Additionally, when government is paying the piper, it can call the tune. And it will do both of those things with the proposed $4,500 tax credit incentive for union-built electric vehicles. The federal government dangles the tax credit to companies with UAW represented plants on one hand, while strangling those very companies' competitiveness by encouraging the UAW's continued existence on the other.
In theory I agree with you - I am not for unions. But obviously we disagree on a few points - so probably not worth going back and forth over. But one question - you said "encouraging the UAW's existance", when I read that it almost sounds like by NOT having the subsidy there is a chance of the UAW going away - unless Ford/GM/Stellantis all go out of business, I don't see that the UAW is ever going away.
 

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But one question - you said "encouraging the UAW's existance", when I read that it almost sounds like by NOT having the subsidy there is a chance of the UAW going away - unless Ford/GM/Stellantis all go out of business, I don't see that the UAW is ever going away.
You are correct that UAW does have incredible staying power, due in no small part to the efforts of leftist Democrat politicians. And while the UAW is unlikely to be dissolved completely (similar to other organized crime outfits such as the Mafia), there is no good reason for the U.S. federal government to directly support them, and plenty of good reasons to weaken them.
 

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The same way that social welfare recipients lose: government handouts act as an impediment to effective restructuring and improvement - personal behavior in the case of social welfare recipients, operations management in the case of businesses like GM and Ford.

Additionally, when government is paying the piper, it can call the tune. And it will do both of those things with the proposed $4,500 tax credit incentive for union-built electric vehicles. The federal government dangles the tax credit to companies with UAW represented plants on one hand, while strangling those very companies' competitiveness by encouraging the UAW's continued existence on the other.
Personally, I don't like the union provision in the tax credit. There's simply no logical basis to justify that. US manufacturing? I'm all for it. US-based companies (which is not in the proposed law but I wish it were)? All for it. But not union-built.

That said, I see BlackGTP's point. The argument quoted above assumes there's a level playing field to begin with. That's not the case. Korea is subsidizing Hyundai and Germany is subsidizing VW and so on (through government-funded healthcare etc., not to mention more overt ways in some cases), which means GM, Ford et.al. are already at a disadvantage. Still, I would have preferred if that was addressed through other means than by relying on unions as the determining factor.
 

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You are correct that UAW does have incredible staying power, due in no small part to the efforts of leftist Democrat politicians. And while the UAW is unlikely to be dissolved completely (similar to other organized crime outfits such as the Mafia), there is no good reason for the U.S. federal government to directly support them, and plenty of good reasons to weaken them.
I'd say that is the true point where we differ. I don't see this as supporting the unions at all, I see it as the unions being used in name only in order to hand a benefit to Ford and GM. Wouldn't surprise me to hear that the idea of this came from GM or Ford (or both) right from the top.
 
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