[CaptainDan]

.... And EV's are supposed to be more reliable, yet Tesla's scores are mediocre to poor, so who knows....?

EVs certainly have the POTENTIAL to be way more reliable. After all, an electric motor is way simpler and lower tech than an ICE. The battery does add some tech and complexity into a vehicle, although still way less than an ICE system.

The EV vs ICEV reliability gets skewed by the EVs generally being new (with all the latest high-tech gadgetry) whereas quite a few ICEVs (that have been around much longer) carry less of the latest gadgetry.

But a vehicle is way more than just a drivetrain. And a lot of quality issues are just the manufacturer paying attention to the details or not. EV or ICEV.

 

[kool1]

Toyota is still living off it's 90's reputation. Vehicles are so dated and behind. Comments are priceless.

 

[BlackGTP]

So... dissecting an underwhelming Model Y suddenly awakens the sleeping giant? Sounds like a marketing pivot to me.

I think there is a difference between build quality and the actual engineering & design. Tesla certainly has a lot to learn about build quality, but it doesn't mean their overall design is bad. There is a reason they made more profits than GM and Ford combined - a lot has to do with what Toyota is commenting on.

 

[09W]

Nah, everybody has recalls now and then. The reality is, if you ask 95% of the buying public who makes the most dependable vehicles across their lineup, people are going to say Toyota.

LIke I stated; perception trails reality.

 

[BlackGTP]

EVs certainly have the POTENTIAL to be way more reliable. After all, an electric motor is way simpler and lower tech than an ICE. The battery does add some tech and complexity into a vehicle, although still way less than an ICE system.

The EV vs ICEV reliability gets skewed by the EVs generally being new (with all the latest high-tech gadgetry) whereas quite a few ICEVs (that have been around much longer) carry less of the latest gadgetry.

But a vehicle is way more than just a drivetrain. And a lot of quality issues are just the manufacturer paying attention to the details or not. EV or ICEV.

EV's are simpler and as you said have the potential to have less issues. But they are still highly complex manufactured goods and most of the new BEV's are clean sheet designs being built in all new factories. There will be problems upfront no matter what.

Tesla is somewhat of a different animal as they are still a new company and learning what the legacy auto makes have learned over the past 100+ years.

 

[09W]

Tesla lost billions for years, and the initial in-the-black years were largely on the back of carbon credit sales, not exceptional engineering.

 

[BORG]

Tesla's Superpower, more than anything, is its ability to engineer lean design in every aspect of the car. It's also the the main reason most automakers really want to go electric, it offers huge long-term cost cutting advantages. This is also by far the hardest aspect of for a legacy automaker to compete with and takes the most time.

But I do wonder at what point Tesla has over commoditized its product line. But I figure this is more like an iPhone, the update cycle is less about hardware design and changes and more about software and new features.

 

[MisterMe]

Toyoter’s quality rep is already heavily damaged, tho perception trails reality. Far, far too many recalls for substandard quality & engineering in the last 15 years. I imagine the pattern will continue with any (eventual) BE’s.

This is correct. In recent JD Power surveys, Toyota and Lexus score in the middle of the pack. Three of the top four slots are held down by Hyundai, Kia, and Genesis. The other slot in the Top 4 is held by Buick. A lot of people who buy Toyota but do not read quality surveys. This gives the company some room to salvage its reputation. However, the clock is ticking.

 

[BlackGTP]

Tesla lost billions for years, and the initial in-the-black years were largely on the back of carbon credit sales, not exceptional engineering.

And yes, they did lose billions for years (2019 and earlier). It's a startup company for a complex process, takes a while to get your operations efficient and profitable. It isn't an easy business and why there are so many failures. They are now making some pretty huge profits excluding the carbon offset. I'd say something has to be going on with their design for both Toyota and GM to both mention it as well as pretty big profits in 2021 and 2022 for a relatively small amount of cars sold.

 

[pontiacgt02]

Toyota like most Japanese companies take ideas or products and make them better. They really don't design anything new. But where I work now we have a couple of Toyota's, hondas and Chrysler mini vans. Chrysler and Honda are about equal in ride and how nice they are. Toyota's van are terrible. Cheap plastic and controls. Just not very nice.

 

[09W]

It's a startup company for a complex process, takes a while to get your operations efficient and profitable.

While true, note that Tesla was founded way back in 2003, and only started showing a profit in the last couple of years (consistantly). Not sure "a while" can stretch as long 15+ years - that's an eternity in a for-profit business.

Also; Tesla no longer qualifies being called a 'start-up' - it's a 20-year old company.

 

[BlackGTP]

While true, note that Tesla was founded way back in 2003, and only started showing a profit in the last couple of years (consistantly). Not sure "a while" can stretch as long 15+ years - that's an eternity in a for-profit business.

Also; Tesla no longer qualifies being called a 'start-up' - it's a 20-year old company.

"Startup" is stretching it, but it certainly is a growing business, unlike all of the mature legacy makes. It takes a while to build a company and clearly Wall Street was willing to fund that 15+ year stretch to get it to where it is today. Takes money to make money. They clearly had a lot of teething pains along the way - but now they look to be "dialing in" their operations and finally achieving success. I think some of that success is due to their unique designs and building techniques.

 

[09W]

Depends on how you measure it. GM made $13.6B profit in '20, $17.9B in '21 and $21B in '22 - that's growing the most important metric in automaking out there. Over those same years, volume declined... but is that more important than Company profit?

 

[InCogKneeToe]

Depends on how you measure it. GM made $13.6B profit in '20, $17.9B in '21 and $21B in '22 - that's growing the most important metric in automaking out there. Over those same years, volume declined... but is that more important than Company profit?

Depends on who is measuring, Wall Street or the Public.

Wall Street wants Return on their $$$$ today, tomorrow can easily be someone else. Public wants to commute economically, here to there for ever.

Short Term vs Long Term, the test is working both parts for a Long Time. Personally, I would prefer Loyalty/Conquest with small profit over Large Profit with Market Share losses.

 

[Neanderthal]

And their EV wheels fall off.

There is a lot of assuming that the transition, if you'll pardon the phrase, will roll along smooth as silk. It'll be like gassers have been sailing along smoothly since the 1930s. But this is not the market speaking, this transition is coming from above. There's a big difference. Time will tell.
Don't put all your eggs in one basket. I heard that somewhere.

 

[CaptainDan]

There is a lot of assuming that the transition, if you'll pardon the phrase, will roll along smooth as silk. It'll be like gassers have been sailing along smoothly since the 1930s. But this is not the market speaking, this transition is coming from above. There's a big difference. Time will tell.
Don't put all your eggs in one basket. I heard that somewhere.

Well certainly, but our eggs have been in that one (ICE) basket for a long time. Just as before ICE cars, we had that "one basket" of horses.

It is good to have choices. Although, it's pretty common that over time a new choice can end up being a new "one basket".

 

[mgescuro]

View attachment 69058

And yes, they did lose billions for years (2019 and earlier). It's a startup company for a complex process, takes a while to get your operations efficient and profitable. It isn't an easy business and why there are so many failures. They are now making some pretty huge profits excluding the carbon offset. I'd say something has to be going on with their design for both Toyota and GM to both mention it as well as pretty big profits in 2021 and 2022 for a relatively small amount of cars sold.

Tesla's not really a startup anymore. Though, they do still retain their startup mentality. And they move startlingly fast, as a startup would.
That's what is going to keep them ahead of the game.

 

[CaptainDan]

A "work of art".

Would that be a da Vinci or a Picasso? Maybe Hieronymus Bosch?

 

[09W]

Just as before ICE cars, we had that "one basket" of horses.
It is good to have choices.

Of course; at the dawn of the automobile there were gas, steam and electrics, co-existing & well established. Plus, a huge portion of long-distance travel was via rail. Choice.

 

[Bigdog]

Toyota is still living off it's 90's reputation. Vehicles are so dated and behind. Comments are priceless.

That they have, those early 90's sr5 Tacoma's that you couldn't kill, well they were about as simplistic of a vehicle as you could get which is what made them so dependable and cheap to operate. Those days long gone by decades now!