GM Inside News Forum banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,633 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Fascinating look from a sociologist's point of view of Toyota's marketing programs and Toyota buyers and 'supporters'. :lmao:


Lots of good information about many things concerning Toyota and ( most of ) their activities here in the United States.

Some of those topics would be:

Toyota: Reality versus Perception

Toyota’s Fallibility

Toyota Propaganda

Toyota’s Pseudo-Heritage

Toyota’s Pseudo-Environmentalism

*******************************************************


This is a repost of a thread I started yesterday that I can no longer find.

The following excerpts which represent way less than 4% of the article's text are some that GMI'ers may find interesting - although really that applies to the entire article.

These start to explain a great many things we've all seen or heard concerning Toyota - including here at GMI.

http://web.cortland.edu/tnyjs/2008_files/03 LUNDSKOW NYJS 2008.pdf

New York Journal of Sociology, 2008, Vol. 1, pp. 91-116


TOYOTA’S WILLING STOOGES:

THE TREND OF NARCISSISM IN US SOCIETY


George Lundskow*

Grand Valley State University

This paper explores the exaltation that Toyota buyers grant the corporation, beyond simply commitment to their cars as desirable product.

Although once superior in reliability, mile-age, and other measurable factors in the 1980s, American and European manufacturers have matched or exceeded Toyota in these areas.

Toyota devotees still declare these areas as important, but Toyota’s following also includes a type of devotion beyond measurable quality and mileage issues.

As a company, Toyota enjoys a type of uncritical acceptance that it exploits with marketing techniques that cross into the realm of propaganda.

The paper identifies these techniques, but also argues that such techniques only succeed among a willingly submissive and willfully uncritical, i.e. emotionally devoted following premised on narcissistic insecurity and indulgence.

The paper finishes with broader conclusions about contemporary American culture, specifically the search for stability and meaning.

In this way, Toyota serves as only one example of a larger trend in US society.
While acknowledging past achievements, this paper argues that Toyota devotees overlook such failings, and more significantly, devotees do not much care about nor respond to facts.

Rather, I argue that Toyota’s perceived environmental and quality superiority relies on narcissistic tendencies in American culture, that people respond to inner feelings of insecurity that crave external reassurance, not active involvement in the form of critical awareness.

The paper will first explore some of the complex reality behind Toyota and the automobile industry, to show how reality differs from popular perception, and then develop a social-psychological explanation for this in-congruence.

* Direct all correspondence to George Lundskow, Department of Sociology, 2170 AuSable Hall, Grand Valley State University, Allendale, MI 49401 or via e-mail: [email protected]
This suggests a disparity between measurable facts and public perception.

This disparity suggests that Toyota’s current and increasing success depends ever less on actual quality—which is declining—and ever more on marketing, political influence, and clever public manipulation.

However, Toyota has not created this situation, but rather, seizes upon preexisting opportunity—a public desperate for good feelings about themselves.

Any company that can connect self-esteem with their products would create a sort of halo, a feeling that good people buy this or that good product.

After all, cars do pollute, both in their manufacture and operation, yet Americans vitally depend on cars, and indeed enjoy driving them.

For those drivers who crave recognition as both a ‘good person’ and as ‘environmentally responsible,’ this kind of social-psychological conflict enables a propagandistic turn in Toyota’s advertising and press rhetoric.

web.cortland.edu/tnyjs/2008_files/03 LUNDSKOW NYJS 2008.pdf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,660 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

First, I enjoy the author's use of words and sentences. He's a better writer than a fact checker. All quoted text are from this article:
Toyota surpassed GM as the best-selling carmaker worldwide in 2007.
Wrong. GM retained #1 status for 2007.
Toyota did not manufacture anything that resembled a station wagon until 1987, with the Corolla wagon.
Wrong. Toyota wagons were a staple in the 70's (Corona, Corolla etc). the oldest Toyota wagon I can think of is the 1962 Crown.
In contrast, Toyota has never made an iconic car.
Supra is an icon. Corolla is an icon too if by no other reason than being continually made/updated/improved for 10 generations and counting. The 2000GT is an icon (You Only Live Twice).
In the case of Porsche, their ‘Germanness’ is part of the mystique. They need not be ‘American’ in order to succeed.
Porsche Cayenne anyone? I believe if it wasn't for America's love of SUV's, the Cayenne would never be.
More importantly, Toyota’s hybrid system is primitive—others, namely a joint effort from General Motors, BMW, and Mercedes—have far more ad-vanced hybrid systems that produce better mileage and greater power
Calling Toyota's Hybrid system "primitive" is laughable. Raise you hand if you once questioned the complexity of the Prius. Is the GM/BMW/DMC version better, more sophisticated? Maybe. The claim to "better mileage"....which vehicle I ask?
Moreover, the Ecology Center in Ann Arbor, Michigan conducted a chemical analysis of 200 cars from the 2006-2007 model year. They tested for the presence of Bromine and Chlorine compounds, as well as various heavy metals. The report (Gearhart, Posselt, Juska, and Griffith 2007) found that GM has the healthiest interiors, followed closely by Honda, while Toyota has the most toxic interiors. On a scale of 0-5 (zero is best) the highly touted Toyota Camry rated 3.2, placing it in the “moderate con-cern” category. Although the best-selling Toyota Corolla scored better at 2.4, it is still far worse than the class-leading Chevrolet Cobalt at 0.5 (Gearhart et al. 2007: 15).
False; this is smoke and mirrors. Please guys follow this link to his reference... http://www.healthycar.org/documents/healthycarguide07.pdf Page 14 shows charts with "least concern" and of "most concern":
GM has 7 vehicles listed as least concern, and 6 vehicles listed as most concern.
Toyota has 2 vehicles listed as least concern, and 2 vehicles listed as most concern.
Or we can break it down to green (low concern), and red (high concern):
GM green: 9, GM red: 5 (it's good thing GM sold most of Suzuki, because Suzuki had a lot of red)
Toyota green: 4, Toyota red: 4
In the first year of three (2004-2007) in which the credit covers, the Toyota Prius was the only hybrid that qualified; hybrids from Honda and General Motors did not (although some states allow this credit).
False. Honda and FORD were allowed the tax credit: http://www.wrrc.p2pays.org/ref/37/36062.pdf Gm wasn't because GM only had the Silverado hybrid. Who remembers that? No magazine I read actually got improved gas mileage. The "hybrid" part was used mainly to power tools from the bed (it had four 110-volt outlets). So why would it deserve a tax credit under that system?
Other hybrid vehicles, such as the Honda Accord and the Honda Insight—with a conven-tional engine even more fuel-efficient than the Prius—were both discontinued for the 2008 model year for lack of demand. Among other factors, they lacked any external green identifier. In contrast, the unique style of the Prius announces one’s pious green identity.
Many things are wrong here, well let's say confusing or misguided. The Accord Hybrid got V6 gas mileage....that's why demand wandered and it was ditched by Honda. The Insight did get better EPA ratings than Prius, but many real world numbers showed otherwise. Another thing is the Insight looked just as unique as the Prius, it wasn't based on another car. And is it so hard to overlook the fact that the insight had 73 hp, and was a 2 door-2 seater? The Prius is a "real" car w/ ~150 hp, 4 doors, and seating for 4 adults.

I am on page 12.....I'm done for now. More to follow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,660 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

^Oh look. Here's one now.
Have you been rubbing your hands all day waiting to say that? :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,660 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

I didn't ask it to be hateful! The timing was funny that's all....it was almost right after I posted! ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,723 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

I think the main weakness with the paper is that it implies that Toyota's successful branding (propaganda, as it refers to it) is somehow a uniquely Toyota quality.

So, when GM uses John Mellencamp's song in a truck ad (and gets him to work on the visuals for the American ad as well), they aren't trying to get some of the artist's populist image (Mellencamp works hard for efforts like FarmAid) to rub off on their products? Is this not, in the author's words, propaganda? And, isn't that the whole point of successful advertising and branding?

The actual sociological part -- the part that discusses why Americans are swayed by this kind of branding effort -- would probably apply to all consumer branding.

The ironic part of this is that while the Prius has been a very successful marketing and branding effort that has become an integral part of the overall Toyota brand, the big pickup efforts seemed to have mostly failed. Toyota has spent a ton of money and effort to try to make headway in the big pickup market and really only made a small dent in the GM/Ford dominance. Plus, their timing really, really sucked ... they've now invested heavily in a shrinking market; and the people most likely to continue buying pickups ... the hard core pickup people ... are the least likely to buy a Toyota. So, I suspect they may have to retreat out of the full sized market in a few seasons and concentrate on where they have traditionally been strong (and the market might actually grow): small pickups.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,979 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

Toyota has spent a ton of money and effort to try to make headway in the big pickup market and really only made a small dent in the GM/Ford dominance. Plus, their timing really, really sucked ... they've now invested heavily in a shrinking market; and the people most likely to continue buying pickups ... the hard core pickup people ... are the least likely to buy a Toyota. So, I suspect they may have to retreat out of the full sized market in a few seasons and concentrate on where they have traditionally been strong (and the market might actually grow): small pickups.
I think Toyota is likely to continue in the full size truck market. Looking at the data, Tundra sales fell by less then full size sales did at the Detroit 3. Toyota hopes to sell 140,000 to 150,000 Tundras a year, and since full size truck sales are very profitable, this is extra gravy for Toyota. The next 2 to 3 years will tell us a lot more about whether Toyota sticks with this segment of the market but I think it is likely they will.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,130 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

Toyota will stick with building trucks because they are planning 20 years into the future. They may take a beating now but they'll learn and adjust.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,660 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

I will continue on page 13 now....
The Toyota devotee is not a critical thinker engaged with the facts, but a highly conventional one who accepts routinized platitudes without reflection.
This is bad because I know Toyota devotees (and NO, I am not one of them) and they are not all like this. And that makes this statement false. My own brother-in-law could by all accounts be considered a Toyota devotee, but he knows plenty of facts about the cars he has and the competition. As far as being a "critical thinker".....give me a break Dr. Phil, people buy what car they like. Some buy strictly on looks alone (quite a number of people actually.....and that's not at all limited to "narcissistic Toyota devotees" like this article suggests). Some buy strictly because of brand loyalty, but once again...even "loyalty" is compared to "narcissistic insecurity" in this very excerpt. Yet, again, Toyota fans are not alone in this behavior....not in the least.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,633 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

First, I enjoy the author's use of words and sentences.
So do I - although riddled with technical detail error - the main thrust is correct - IMO.

Somewhat sloppy with tremendous insight nonetheless.
He's a better writer than a fact checker.
YEP - which takes nothing away from what he's saying - even after proper correction.
Wrong. GM retained #1 status for 2007.
In many circles this is correct - because GM did retain Sales Volume Leadership.

In another group - its recognized that GM outsold Toyota by approx 3,100 units worldwide - and Toyota outproduced GM by a larger number - which is also significant - even tho they stuffed the living **** out of their pipeline to accommodate that.

I agree - should be rewritten - any number of ways.

The point he makes will still stand - Toyota's volume is enormous and functionally equivalent or ahead - as it is now .

YTD 2008 Toyota is ahead by 277,000 plus sales units - that is relevant as well.

Wrong. Toyota wagons were a staple in the 70's (Corona, Corolla etc). the oldest Toyota wagon I can think of is the 1962 Crown.
Again, you are both right and both wrong - and again the author's error when corrected does not materially change the thrust or strength of the main argument.

The first Toyota Station wagon in the USA that was even remotely successful was the mid - late '70's Corolla wagon.

Technically speaking, because it was so small it did not meet many/most definitions of an American Station Wagon and was treated as such.

Really sold and thought of as a Corolla with a decent boot.

Virtually almost no American consumers bought it as a American Station Wagon replacement - no 6 - 9 passenger capacity.

Supra is an icon. Corolla is an icon too if by no other reason than being continually made/updated/improved for 10 generations and counting.
NOPE to both.

Supra has an extremely small and growing smaller but active group of followers - those 30,000 mile or less headgasket replacements will do that to you - it doesn't even begin to qualify although its closer than almost all other Toyota product.

That's about as useful an observation as noting that the guy sitting in the tail of the airplane by the lavatory hit the ground last when the plane crashed.

Corolla - the car - Iconic ???? - which one ?????:lmao:

Reality would suggest the only possibly relevant question is - is the nameplate Iconic ?

Possibly in some market segments in some parts of the world, but really the question isn't about Iconic nameplates that an OEM's marketing program wishes to build a phony heritage with, is it.

Even there, it's not a sure thing worldwide - is there the critical mass ??? - don't think so - but it could on a localized level in some locations.


The 2000GT is an icon (You Only Live Twice).
Without a doubt, the most interesting car to wear a Toyota badge - got to drive one once and I liked it well enough.

( Also without a doubt - and I only mention this since we're walking thru all your trivialities the James Bond series does include some real Iconic cars - in some cases it helped make them so. Best example by far would be the Aston Martin DB in Goldfinger . )

Of course, that's because Toyota had next to nothing to do with it's design - go look at the history behind the car - it's basically an inherited product program - that sold almost no volume anyway ( - was technically a failure in light of it's price point ) - effectively all of which was in Japan.

Very Interesting - yes - as a footnote in automotive history concerning a Japanese interpretation of an English Sports Car by an interesting and innovative small Japanese firm that was swallowed up by big bad Toyota - the act of which was facilitated by the Japanese Government..

Iconic ? - part way there - at least starts in the qualifying heats - but doesn't cross the line - never mind making it into the finals.

Porsche Cayenne anyone? I believe if it wasn't for America's love of SUV's, the Cayenne would never be.
And your point is ????

The author is correct - Porsche - the brand ( over all ) is Iconic.

The author is also correct in that Porsche's German heritage is an asset in NA.

The author is also correct in recognizing - as Toyota does themselves that they need to appear as 'All American' as possible ( and not Japanese ) in order to take their NA sales volume to the next level.

Calling Toyota's Hybrid system "primitive" is laughable. Raise you hand if you once questioned the complexity of the Prius.
Ah, here you commit an understandable mistake - in certain circles ( that matter ) inefficient complexity is a sure sign of 'primitiveness' - the HSD program is also primitive in another way that's easier to understand - it's hopelessly complex and costly to transfer from platform to platform - has to be custom fitted and located within the chassis - see GM Two Mode ( or BAS ) for how to do properly and largely avoid or minimize this problem.
Is the GM/BMW/DMC version better, more sophisticated? Maybe. The claim to "better mileage"....which vehicle I ask?
No maybe about it.

Any HSD system when operated out of it sweet spot becomes a total loser - Two Mode is way, way, more forgiving - less sensitive by far - and really has more impressive performance even within the sweet spot.

False; this is smoke and mirrors. Please guys follow this link to his reference... http://www.healthycar.org/documents/healthycarguide07.pdf Page 14 shows charts with "least concern" and of "most concern":
GM has 7 vehicles listed as least concern, and 6 vehicles listed as most concern.
Toyota has 2 vehicles listed as least concern, and 2 vehicles listed as most concern.
Or we can break it down to green (low concern), and red (high concern):
GM green: 9, GM red: 5 (it's good thing GM sold most of Suzuki, because Suzuki had a lot of red)
Toyota green: 4, Toyota red: 4
Well, I don't know what to say here - you seem to be more guilty of smoke and mirrors than anything by the author ..... the author does appear to have correctly represented the scores and relative standings - you seem to be looking at it differently using a different scoring system - than the authors of the report - and the report's own scoring system .

I'm not done looking at this so things could change - you also do not seem to have read the whole report - which supports the author's presentation.

False. Honda and FORD were allowed the tax credit: http://www.wrrc.p2pays.org/ref/37/36062.pdf Gm wasn't because GM only had the Silverado hybrid. Who remembers that? No magazine I read actually got improved gas mileage. The "hybrid" part was used mainly to power tools from the bed (it had four 110-volt outlets). So why would it deserve a tax credit under that system?
Here, you look worse than weak.

Once again, you and the author are both correct and wrong.

As initially passed and used it was exclusively for the Prius.

Later, when 're provisioned' the program was expanded - the author should've covered all three parts of this - as well as yourself.

Having said that, the point while in a sense weakened just a bit still stands - especially the implicit/explicit connections between the program, Toyota, and West Virginia's Senator.

It is technically misleading the way it stands - but does not affect the final outcome in the least.

Interest lying enough, your attempted 'correction' - ( much like your entire post ) is even more misleading than that.

Right now, you appear, at best, to be a phony fireman attempting to douse a small storage locker fire with gasoline - nothing personal.
Many things are wrong here, well let's say confusing or misguided. The Accord Hybrid got V6 gas mileage....that's why demand wandered and it was ditched by Honda.
On this one he's got it right and wrong but you're off the larger amount. I'm not going to post everything necessary - but go do your homework again - there are two very distinct Honda Accord hybrid groupings - with two very distinct EPA numbers. I suppose the author could've covered this as well but it's somewhat of a judgment call - doesn't really have much impact in exclusion. ( From a rusty , dusty memory the 2007 Accord hybrid added a moonroof ?, a spare tire, and approx. 3- 4mpg ? to the previous variant. ( External appearence was largely the same and was carried over a bit even when the 2008 arrived. )
The Insight did get better EPA ratings than Prius, but many real world numbers showed otherwise. Another thing is the Insight looked just as unique as the Prius, it wasn't based on another car. And is it so hard to overlook the fact that the insight had 73 hp, and was a 2 door-2 seater?
Again, an incomplete but somewhat accurate and useful observation - what's the point again ???

The Prius is a "real" car w/ ~150 hp, 4 doors, and seating for 4 adults.
Hmmmm, so 'two seat' two doors are not real cars ??????? - and the Prius is ??????? - and the Insight was not a 'real' commuter car ?????? :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

And what pray tell, did you say earlier about two - two door / two seat 'Toyota' (badged) Sports Cars - is there now a separate category of Iconic 'nonreal' cars as well ?????

I am on page 12.....I'm done for now. More to follow.
Can't wait - although I'm extremely disappointed in what you managed to not cover in the first 12 pages - including all the main topics and the really insightful stuff about the (nasty) charade that is Toyota.

Also, lets work together and integrate the basically 'enlightened' slave labor report on Toyota from the NLC with this one. :)

I agree there are corrections - in details that are desirable - but the biggest one needed of course would be to add in the NLC report - doncha' think ???

Of course, that would buttress the whole presentation would it not ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,231 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

OK, which one of you is George Lundskow? PMC? :p:

Honestly this paper reads more like a forum post than any form of academic work.

  • Unsubstantiated claim that Toyota has had inferior quality since a particular date (2003).
  • Random bitch list about Toyota quality issues with no comparisons to other manufacturers
  • Claim that Toyota engages in "propaganda" while being completely uncritical about automotive marketing as a whole.
  • Vague handwaving about "heritage" (yawn)
  • Strawman argument about "staunch Toyota devotees", with no data about the Toyota customer base. This a fluffed-up version of "fanboi" trolling
  • Long discussion of "narcissism" in relationship to green buyers, but not to people who buy say humungous SUVs or muscle cars or anything else. No substantiation that any one customer group is more narcissist than any other.

One big problem with all these sorts of arguments on a GM site is that GM was and is a mass-marketing machine that sold half the cars in America. This wasn't possible without using "propaganda" and every other sort of marketing technique to appeal to people's narcissistic and every other psychological motivation. It isn't possible to claim moral superiority when Toyota beat GM at it's own game.

How many times have people said things like "Toyota buyers are sheeples" and then in the next post "My granddaddy and my daddy were Chevy Men". Attempts to be critical of one customer group's motivations here create a huge irony gap, you GM stooges :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,660 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

It's good that this thread isn't on its way to getting locked. Obviously (at least the 3 of us anyway) think there is something worth talking about. :yup:

You have to remember what even led me to raking through the info...and I mentioned it in the previous thread that was deleted all together from record. I had only gotten like a page or 2 in, and found a pretty big error IMO. So that's what I focussed on.

-Wagons--I hear what you're saying. I totally understand the difference between the 70's American wagons, and the import wagons. I used to own a 1970 Ford Country Squire with a 390 V8, and I used to own a 1976 Toyota Corolla wagon than I bought used for $425. But the reason I mentioned his statement is because his use of wording, "Toyota did not manufacture anything that resembled a station wagon until 1987". Hell a 1976 Corolla wagon was a lot closer than a 1987 Corolla wagon to a 70's American wagon....at least the 70's Toyota was rear wheel drive.
Here's a pic of my Corolla.... (I was poor, and 18 years old!)


-Icons--This can be a thread all its own! lol I won't debate this issue on a GM site, because there's no need. But the most iconic Corolla is the AE86 "Hachi Roku" which means 86 in Japanese. I spent 2 years in Japan....and I have countless hours of the locals drifting these little buggers! They were the last RWD Corollas. I do concede though.....probably .4% of the members here @ GMIN would agree with me on this point....and that's ok.

-Porsche Cayenne--The reason I mentioned that was because the author claimed (paraphrasing) Porsche didn't need to cater to or become "American" to succeed in America. And instantly I thought of the Porsche Cayenne. It was developed about the time the U.S. SUV sales were peaking or about to peak. I know this doesn't debunk the entire article by any means.....but again it caught me off guard because the statement seemed so wrong.

-Interior toxins--I attempted to be as fair as possible with out listing every single vehicle. I provided the link after all ;) . Clearly a few Toyotas have high levels of toxins, and it's only fair to say GM had an equal amount of high-toxicity cars. The worst car (by score--5 of 5) in the whole data log is the Nissan Versa....so how this author decided that "Toyota is evil" from this data, I'll never know.

-Prius/Accord/Insight comparison--The reason I mentioned these was mostly because the "reasons" in the author's mind for Accord Hybrid's and Insight's demise is off. Yes, the Insight is a real car....but I can't use that car everyday. But I could use a Prius everyday. It's not right to leave my kid behind at the house everyday while my wife and I cruise around in our Insight! My point was Prius is more practical for MORE people....and that is why the Insight failed. Take a look at the spy shot "new" hybrid for Honda....how many doors does it have? Honda currently has a hybrid Civic sedan, but not a hybrid coupe...why? Because they learned their lesson IMHO. The Accord hybrid V6 was a sedan, yes, however it got terrible fuel economy.....I want to say high 20's in the real world. So no one bought them. The last ones had pretty good rebates on them in my area. I don't know why you think there are 2 separate Accord hybrids....but I think I know where the confusion comes from. In 2005 (first year) the Accord hybrids were rated at 29 cty/37 hwy. No changes were made to the power plant itself, but the 2006 models were rated at a more realistic 25 cty/34 hwy. The Accord hybrid is almost single handedly the reason for the new 2008 EPA's new fuel economy standards IMHO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,633 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

OK, which one of you is George Lundskow? PMC? :p:
Disagree with your post - and with no expense meant towards PMC - but that's funny.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,426 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

I enjoyed the article, there were a few statements that I either didn't agree with or may not be totally correct. However, the author does provide references for most of his conclusions; references that I haven't had time to look over. I thought the main thrust of the article was valid, and supported by the conclusions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,633 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

-Wagons--I hear what you're saying. I totally understand the difference between the 70's American wagons, and the import wagons. I used to own a 1970 Ford Country Squire with a 390 V8, and I used to own a 1976 Toyota Corolla wagon than I bought used for $425. But the reason I mentioned his statement is because his use of wording, "Toyota did not manufacture anything that resembled a station wagon until 1987". Hell a 1976 Corolla wagon was a lot closer than a 1987 Corolla wagon to a 70's American wagon....at least the 70's Toyota was rear wheel drive.
See, in some sense I agree with some of the spirit of this in a generic way - I don't like preventable 'slop' - especially on something I support. That said, an '87 Corolla was 'closer' ( although still far) - overall to much of what was left of the American station wagon product than the '76 was - RWD or not.

-Icons--This can be a thread all its own! lol
YEP ! Actually a little tougher than it first appears to define
I won't debate this issue on a GM site, because there's no need.
Well, say what you will about that, but personally I still believe it's not wise to bring a rubber knife to a shotgun 'fest'.......
But the most iconic Corolla is the AE86 "Hachi Roku" which means 86 in Japanese. I spent 2 years in Japan....and I have countless hours of the locals drifting these little buggers! They were the last RWD Corollas.
I can understand this.
The Accord hybrid V6 was a sedan, yes, however it got terrible fuel economy.....I want to say high 20's in the real world. So no one bought them.
That's a slightly ****eyed, partial presentation of the story, not all of it.

It's also an oversimplification that is not useful..

The (initially) missing moonroof, spare, and the uncorrectable ? lack of a fold down rearseat combined with the price premium - and some standard hybrid dynamic funkyiness - versuses alternatives within the Accord line up were some more of it.

In other words, in terms of potential buyers the tradeoffs compared to a 'conventional' Accord didn't make sense - as a group.... it's always about assets versuses liabilities - this one just didn't add up right for the intended buyer.

The standard Toyota spin concerning this car always also leaves out that this one was very specifically intended for a specific group of Accord intenders - and that's real important in understanding it's real failure

The Lexus HYBRID programs (Auto ) now represent the biggest fail in powertrains offered for sale in the history of the United States ( post '23 ) - for much the same reasoning.
The last ones had pretty good rebates on them in my area.
YEP - they sold four last month and eight the month before........
I don't know why you think there are 2 separate Accord hybrids < I said 'groupings' - and referenced the epa #s - which is accurate enough >.......... In 2005 (first year) the Accord hybrids were rated at 29 cty/37 hwy.
This is part of what what I can't remember for sure - model years offered and when, and also when the tweak and in what direction it was made.

No changes were made to the power plant itself, but the 2006 models were rated at a more realistic 25 cty/34 hwy.
Well, I'm not sure, but I thought the change up was for the model year 2007s.

That's almost completely inaccurate - the IMA system was most definitely tweaked and improved and some IMA 'capacity' increases were part of that - and by tweaks I don't just mean software.

There were definitely some small, but important tweaks for the rest of the powertrain as well - Honda went thru it with a fine toothed comb..

The Accord hybrid is almost single handedly the reason for the new 2008 EPA's new fuel economy standards IMHO.
Absolutely and positively false - the Prius and its owners complaints ( see UK for instant replay ) was by far the most important and influential contributor - when the full DOE/EPA/NHTSA 'story' is examined.

It was for obvious reasons ( sales volume ) the largest grouping used to correct for hybrid error - an effort by the way which didn't even come close to being a full correction in a longterm high age kind of way.

If you look at only most of the story as opposed to all then you could say its a horse race between the Civic Hybrid, the Prius, and the Insight.

One commonly overlooked aspect of all this was the DOE program that discovered and documented a consistent 15 -20% error ( optimistic ) in the on board (DIC) fuel economy reporting system of the Prius, and the Civic Hybrid ? or Insight ?....... lots to that....... and I do mean 'lots'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,633 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

Well, this is interesting.

According to fuel economy.gov for the Accord Hybrid ( all 4dr/ 5sp. AT - as expected )


................Revised...........................Old
.........city combined highway....city combined highway

2005:.25..... 28......... 33..... /.29.......32.........37

2006:.22......25..........31...../..25.......28.........32

2007:.24......27..........32...../..28........31........35
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,083 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

Good article...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,083 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

The actual sociological part -- the part that discusses why Americans are swayed by this kind of branding effort -- would probably apply to all consumer branding.
You think so? I thought the paper read like Fear of Freedom or something Nietzeche would write, since the idea of Toyota exploiting current trends and contrasting it with narcissism on the college campus seems to ironic in its effect at generating the idea of a different, backwards social human.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,660 Posts
Re: Toyota’s Willing Stooges: The Trend Of Narcissism In Us Society

I wonder what ever happened to George Lundskow @ Grand Valley State University? I bet he's chomping at the bit to write a new Toyota-hate ridden paper!
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top