[ForcedTQ]

If not the 4.5L Duramax, how about a 4.2 inline 6 diesel version with CGI block, and a VNT turbo? With similar power density figures to the 2.8L, it'd come in around ~300 hp and 560 lbft. Couple that with a 8L80/90E, instant success!!! Two less cylinders, inline config benefits, somewhat of a baby "Dummins" so to speak..... :drive: They'd out class the "Eco Diesel" and "Eco Boost" while still probably winding up with MPG closer to the Eco Diesel in the RAM.

 

[AMERICA 123]

4.2 - 4.0L DM V8 FTW.

If they didn't have the DM 4.5 already........


A 3.X DM......... V8 in a more perfect world.

 

[sydtron]

Did a calc for a $4K investment into Diesel based on my mileage and current Diesel/Gas difference, It would pay back in about 13.3yrs. If you run 50K miles a year, you would pay back in 4 years. The fuel economy savings are more a marketing thing than actual payback if you figure the option price, that's not to say it won't sell.

The money spent on the diesel doesn't just melt away, I have read that diesel's are actually better (by a small percentage) at residual values than gas vehicles, so you can add back at least half that if you go with a 5 year residual. And what values for mileage/cost are you using to calculate your 13.3 year payback? Better yet, whats your driving mix and how do you do with your 2014? My dad and I have always been a little disappointed with his '11 5.3 (extended cab, brush guard like yours, Z71, Cooper ATR's, cap, extra leaf out back and 1/2 spacer up front), that and the old 5.3 doesn't seem that happy on 87; E85 or 93 make the low end feel noticeably better.

Roughly 300 hp and what, 500 pd ft ? or a little less means 300 - 310 hp / 4.5L = about 67 - 69 hp per litre and then say 480 - 520 pd ft / 4.5L = about 107 - 115.6 pdft per litre.

Likely would have allowed some applications with a non SCR fitment and a smaller one for good effect on the others.

Would depend on what kind of loads were provided for though.

If they matched the Ram EB 3.0 per litre outputs then you would have 360 hp and 630 pdft.

It would definitely have SCR, it is just too hard to meet emissions without it. Even at 300/520, you are looking at the same rating the big Duramax launched at 13 years ago!

One other note, the 4.5L would be a great engine...for HD trucks. Too big for light duty to really make a business case, but start going after Ford on HD trucks with better economy and you may be shocked by the response from the self employed/corporate buyers, that would make a lot of sense to them, and the customers who never use the HD truck they buy as a truck.

The 4.5 was developed to fit exactly into the space of a Chevy ohv V8. Hence the turbo between the cylinder banks. It was tested in the Trailblazer SUV at the time and was always intended to be light duty.

Even being designed to fit in the same space as a small block, that is a lot of engine for a 1/2 ton. Ah heck, build it!

 

[lohchief]

My view on this is very simple,a diesel is offered as an option,it ain't mandatory.Those of us that want one,will buy one.Those that try to come to terms with,'should I',or how long will it take to 'recoup the costs' etc don't really need one and constantly try to sway others to their point of view.I will be buying a Colorado diesel once it becomes available.If I needed a fullsize 1/2 ton,I would already have a ram ed in my driveway.Gm earlier this year said that a diesel wasn't needed in the 1500's.Once again they made their own bed,so IF they decide a diesel option is viable,they will be the last ones to the dance....again.However,they,imho,have hit a homerun with the midsize twins,and soon it will be an out of the park grand slam once the diesels are finally on the dealer lots.And that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...

 

[Lowboy]

I can not understand GM making a commitment to something and spending a large amount of money, then just put it on the shelf. That not a good way to run a company.

That kind of management could bankrupt a company!

However,they,imho,have hit a homerun with the midsize twins,and soon it will be an out of the park grand slam once the diesels are finally on the dealer lots.And that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...

Unfortunately that will be two full years AFTER the Ram EcoDiesel has been out.
What are the chances of GM getting back those buyers when the already have a <2 yr old truck?

 

[AMERICA 123]

It would definitely have SCR, it is just too hard to meet emissions without it. Even at 300/520, you are looking at the same rating the big Duramax launched at 13 years ago!

Well, yeah, if it came today or further out - for the primary applications no doubt.

That is why past tense was used .......

Even being designed to fit in the same space as a small block, that is a lot of engine for a 1/2 ton. Ah heck, build it!

Yes indeed.

They could dumb it down perhaps.... a bit. ( the whole installation if you will + torque management.)

Btw, not sure that is an accurate torque range as originally intended - can't remember.


Can you imagine this in a Canyon of some special sort ????

Anyway, yes to that last - ASAP.

 

[BBDOS CV8]

I really don't see the benefit of a diesel compared to the new 5.3 and 6.2. For eco or must-be-the-best-mpg people, then I get it why the Ram diesel is selling. Great for them. But around here in the NE, diesel fuel is $1.00 more than regular per gallon. So for my crude math, it is no benefit.
Pre-low sulfer diesel, this Ram diesel would be a game changer, cause diesel was $1.00 less a gallon. Maybe that's why GM scraped it.

Because you haven't driven a modern diesel. Wait until you drive a Colorado with one - you'll never want to go back to a woosy gas 2.5 or 3.6 again. The peak torque of the 5.3 V8 at just above idle, coupled with better fuel economy than the I4. The one I had on test a few years ago took two trips 25 miles across town, gridlocked so bad the first time I turned around and went back after 45 minutes of moving 1/2 mile. It belted down the freeway with a load of estate furniture that weighed a ton sticking out over the cab into a 30mph headwind and didn't even notice the load, even though a big bookcase was acting like a sail. I commuted to work in town two days. It averaged 25 USmpg the week I had it, moving some large loads and doing a lot of urban stop-start running. Not much steps off the line with the authority of one of these things, and loaded, they just shrug it off. I had a Colorado 7, loaded with 5 people and it was walking away from cars heading up a mountain pass, despite it's heft in corners.

These modern diesels are clean, variable geometry turbos work at both low speeds and high so they pull from 1000-4500 revs and they pull high gears, so freeway work is dispatched at 1500-1600rpm and they never shift out of top unless speed drops a lot or you hit a really big hill with a large load. They just whistle along on a whiff of throttle. I didn't do any economy runs, but the Colorado 2.8 should be well over 30mpg for most on the freeway, even loaded. Like the Cruze diesel Big Al drove (and the Volt, for that matter) diesel fuel economy is an elastic thing and there are ways and means to eke out more than EPA sticker.

 

[mchicha]

On topic, GM recently sold its stake in VM Motori for a relative pittance... what did GM know to make such a decision, were they stupid or is there something better on offer?
Does GM need a diesel half ton or does it have its own "Ecoboost" strategy or even next generation AFM technology that makes diesel options less attractive by swinging the fuel economy balance back to gasoline?

GM actually did a pretty smart thing with Vmotori, they used it to found their own Diesel Engineering division, and took talent and experience with them. They are now no longer dependent on Isuzu or Joint ventures for their diesels. I believe their first 100% GM diesels are coming online in Europe.
Their Diesel Engineering center is based near Vmotori in Italy at Turin (Torino) LINK

 

[dragonlord483]

Now that Ram has proven a market for smaller diesel I'm sure GM and Ford will respond with their own diesels. But GM and Ford have to build a diesel that commercial truck buyers want. Ram builds more towards personal trucks...

Ram Eco diesel has
Payload of 1620lbs
Towing of 9200lbs

Ram NA V6 has
Payload of 1910lbs
Towing of 7450lbs

This is not a truck diesel engine.......payload is way to low.....

Do they need a diesel when a 1500 can pull 10 ton of wood on trailer when a f250 snaps its frame

 

[jpd80]

Super Duty has around 2/3s of the HD market, so Ford must know what its customers want...

 

[JimmyDiablo]

Man, how quickly everyone forgets...I remember when Ford came out with Ecoboost, everyone be like "GM Needs This Now!", and now that Ram has come out with the Diesel, everyone be like "GM Needs a Diesel NOW!", GM is doing just fine without turbo 6's, and they will do just fine without the Diesel.

They are not getting GM and Ford faithful to give up their allegiances for Ram trucks, they are getting back their own buyers who were forced into other trucks after years of crappy trucks. They are eating costs to keep prices down in order to gain market share and this is a recipe for disaster. Without profits you cannot build and develop what you have.

GM trucks and SUVs sales are great, and better yet, ATPs are way, way up, this keeps them strong.

 

[63GrandSport001]

There is a funny math equation here that should be done. Based on the article 10% of ram volume is diesel and 60% of that group is made up conquest sales. 60% sounds impressive because it is impressive, however 60% of 10% is 6% total. Granted I am sure that other ram models are also seeing conquest sales. However if we assume that is not the case then 6% of ram sales are conquest sales.

Make no mistake the ram is an impressive truck and is doing just fine. However ram is offering good deals and this is at least part of their growth. I am just starting to think that gmiers are making up a big deal when one in fact does not exist. I also feel that this is happening with some purely because there is something they don't like. So suddenly because I don't like something it sucks and it is going to fail.

 

[usayjim2]

How do you recognize a follower or a leader , well in the truck business one could say that GM revamped the pick up line in response to Ford's runaway success of its product , now Ford ups the ante with aluminum , so GM runs around securing aluminum sources to get in the game . Ram does a number with a smaller diesel engine , which meets a big customer response , so guess what GM does next here ?? RAM has steadily refined its trucks and engines and in Canada , at least , I expect it will take over No. 1 in truck sales from Ford in the next couple of years . The product is now that good , made by a separate company that just builds trucks , they all eat , sleep and work on this product exclusively . Are they leaders or followers ? What about Ford , what can you say about a company that innovates and continually refines their hugely successful product , instead of leaving on the market for years , kind of like what GM did with its previous generation of trucks ? How does GM get to focus on being the leader in its market segments ? The only division that appears to have the autonomy to be a leader is Cadillac . Make the big bucks , lose the big bucks , move on and be a hero . Who is pulling or incapable of pulling the strings in this monster convoluted company , or does this Cadillac autonomy start a new direction for the company , that of independent divisions who can mandate their vehicle selection to best serve the marketplace and perhaps be the leaders and not the followers , like Cadillac , right ??

 

[Lowboy]

Man, how quickly everyone forgets...I remember when Ford came out with Ecoboost, everyone be like "GM Needs This Now!", and now that Ram has come out with the Diesel, everyone be like "GM Needs a Diesel NOW!", GM is doing just fine without turbo 6's, .

You mean with the 4.3L V6 that isn't selling as well as they expected?
The reason V8s are on restriction is that the take rate is higher than GM expected.

They are not getting GM and Ford faithful to give up their allegiances for Ram trucks, they are getting back their own buyers who were forced into other trucks after years of crappy trucks.

Ram and Ford are back to 2006 sales levels while GM is not, they are off by almost 200K units using 2013 figures.
Add in the sales of discontinued models like the Colorado, Canyon, Avalanche, SSR and Hummer brand it is even worse.

GM trucks and SUVs sales are great, and better yet, ATPs are way, way up, this keeps them strong.

That is why the have to do an emergency update on the trucks, why they will be adding down weeks to truck production.
ATPs are up but yet people still complain about the little things going wrong, just ask NSAP.
GM has some nice designs but the quality of the components they are spec'ing out is still low, ex: water pump failures on the Cruze.

 

[KingElvis]

How do you recognize a follower or a leader , well in the truck business one could say that GM revamped the pick up line in response to Ford's runaway success of its product , now Ford ups the ante with aluminum , so GM runs around securing aluminum sources to get in the game . Ram does a number with a smaller diesel engine , which meets a big customer response , so guess what GM does next here ?? RAM has steadily refined its trucks and engines and in Canada , at least , I expect it will take over No. 1 in truck sales from Ford in the next couple of years . The product is now that good , made by a separate company that just builds trucks , they all eat , sleep and work on this product exclusively . Are they leaders or followers ? What about Ford , what can you say about a company that innovates and continually refines their hugely successful product , instead of leaving on the market for years , kind of like what GM did with its previous generation of trucks ? How does GM get to focus on being the leader in its market segments ? The only division that appears to have the autonomy to be a leader is Cadillac . Make the big bucks , lose the big bucks , move on and be a hero . Who is pulling or incapable of pulling the strings in this monster convoluted company , or does this Cadillac autonomy start a new direction for the company , that of independent divisions who can mandate their vehicle selection to best serve the marketplace and perhaps be the leaders and not the followers , like Cadillac , right ??

Let's not re-write history here.

Where was Ford's quadrasteer?

Where was the Avalanche?

And just what does 'runaway success' of the 'best selling vehicle in America' mean when the 'failed' K2xx outsells it last month?

http://thenewswheel.com/ford-f-150-outsold-chevy-silverado-gmc-sierra-august/

 

[KingElvis]

How do you recognize a follower or a leader , well in the truck business one could say that GM revamped the pick up line in response to Ford's runaway success of its product , now Ford ups the ante with aluminum , so GM runs around securing aluminum sources to get in the game . Ram does a number with a smaller diesel engine , which meets a big customer response , so guess what GM does next here ?? RAM has steadily refined its trucks and engines and in Canada , at least , I expect it will take over No. 1 in truck sales from Ford in the next couple of years . The product is now that good , made by a separate company that just builds trucks , they all eat , sleep and work on this product exclusively . Are they leaders or followers ? What about Ford , what can you say about a company that innovates and continually refines their hugely successful product , instead of leaving on the market for years , kind of like what GM did with its previous generation of trucks ? How does GM get to focus on being the leader in its market segments ? The only division that appears to have the autonomy to be a leader is Cadillac . Make the big bucks , lose the big bucks , move on and be a hero . Who is pulling or incapable of pulling the strings in this monster convoluted company , or does this Cadillac autonomy start a new direction for the company , that of independent divisions who can mandate their vehicle selection to best serve the marketplace and perhaps be the leaders and not the followers , like Cadillac , right ??

Let's not re-write history here.

Where was Ford's quadrasteer?

Where was the Avalanche?

And just what does 'runaway success' of the 'best selling vehicle in America' mean when the 'failed' K2xx outsells it last month?

http://thenewswheel.com/ford-f-150-outsold-chevy-silverado-gmc-sierra-august/

 

[Ed753]

I will fight to the death to keep that chiseled styling. Ford can have the rounded effeminate look. I'll take the sharp Chevy any day.

You got a Ram right, what shape are your wheelwells?


ef·fem·i·nate (adjective)

Having or showing qualities that are considered more suited to women than to men : not manly

 

[DGA]

Let's not re-write history here.

Where was Ford's quadrasteer?

Where was the Avalanche?

And just what does 'runaway success' of the 'best selling vehicle in America' mean when the 'failed' K2xx outsells it last month?

http://thenewswheel.com/ford-f-150-outsold-chevy-silverado-gmc-sierra-august/

Truth be told for the longest time GM had the market edge even if they were not selling as many trucks. There used to be a time where I'd not even consider going into a Ram and Ford dealer to test drive their trucks cause I knew that GM had the best engines, transmissions, interiors, brakes, etc. Sad truth of it is that it's all long gone now...where is the qudrasteer, where's the Avalanche, where's the 8' bed on an extra cab truck, etc... Where GM has just barely kept up with the competition lately - if that - the competition is adding and offering more while continuously evolving their product. Less then a year, in advance of having the product in your hands, did Ford and Ram announce new, segment changing, additions to their trucks. GM on the other hand retorts with, "We are considering (fill in the blank)." I never thought I'd see the day, but now I'd consider a Ford and Dodge first, while GM would come in as an afterthought.

 

[ChrisNJ]

There are 4 types of truck buyers:
1. People who want a big car and never use it as a truck
2. People who make a living using their truck
3. People who are strong "hobbyists" and haul a lot of stuff or tow toys around
4. Idiots.

Reasons for a Diesel in a 1500:
1. Fuel Economy
You are not going to save money driving a diesel, sorry the numbers don't work out.

2. Bragging Rights
I suspect the reason for a lot of RAM Diesel sales

3. Too much money
From a business perspective, this is a great group to go after, but you could just sell them the badge because they would not know the difference.

4. Performance
What most people think will be the biggest buyers, but I doubt this is the biggest group.

So knowing this, why are people going for a 1500 Diesel? Marketing. People think they will save money driving it, but they will not recoup the cost of the option for 10yrs if they are lucky, and that is far beyond what most will keep it for.

Ford is a little better, it will only take a few years to recoup the cost of the EB, but most people only look at the gas savings, not the cost of the option.

GM has some of the best trucks out there, with some of the worst marketing. Marketing should be able to sell a s**t taco to a lady in white gloves...I am not sure GM marketing can sell white gloves to here.

This is the best explanation I've seen. Nice job. I agree.

 

[Twinpeaksr]

The money spent on the diesel doesn't just melt away, I have read that diesel's are actually better (by a small percentage) at residual values than gas vehicles, so you can add back at least half that if you go with a 5 year residual. And what values for mileage/cost are you using to calculate your 13.3 year payback? Better yet, whats your driving mix and how do you do with your 2014? My dad and I have always been a little disappointed with his '11 5.3 (extended cab, brush guard like yours, Z71, Cooper ATR's, cap, extra leaf out back and 1/2 spacer up front), that and the old 5.3 doesn't seem that happy on 87; E85 or 93 make the low end feel noticeably better.



It would definitely have SCR, it is just too hard to meet emissions without it. Even at 300/520, you are looking at the same rating the big Duramax launched at 13 years ago!





Even being designed to fit in the same space as a small block, that is a lot of engine for a 1/2 ton. Ah heck, build it!

Even with some residual value added back in, still does not have a payback.

I am about 50/50 City/Highway, I am currently running 18-19MPG combined on my 2014 Silverado. Looking at the Dodge it is about 6MPG better, running the numbers with a $0.40 difference in Gas vs Diesel right now by me (yes this changes with fuel price fluctuation, but I needed a starting point for comparison) and 12K miles a year:

12,000Miles / 18MPG * $3.00 = $2000/yr in fuel on my current silverado
12,000Miles / 24MPG * $3.40 = $1700/yr in fuel for a Diesel

Cost for package is $4000 adder at $300/yr savings = 13yr 4mo return for investment of additional $4000. Higher resale will help, but if you selll at 13yr, it will not be more than a couple hundred, and if you sell too early you will still loose.

I know you can play with number, make assumptions about fuel prices, resale, etc, but I needed a comparison point. Don't get me wrong, I would love a Diesel, but at the current up charge, fuel economy is not a valid reason for me.