[Ming]

I hear a lot of noise from the Import magazines, gushing over the 2005 Scion Tc like it is the second coming of the CRX, and their ultimate dream machine. What I find funny is that the Cobalt's engine with the same displacement (non-supercharged 2.4L) gets 10 more horses and torque, and the Scion's engine was just tweaked and reworked for more power (from a Camry 4-cyl.)! And both of the vehicles weigh the same - in fact the Tc may actually weigh more! Rebates? Discounts for a Scion? Riiight.

The facts:

Cobalt SS (2.4L VVT) 170hp / 170torque
Scion Tc (2.4L VVT) 160hp / 163 torque

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forum/index.ph...=3208&hl=cobalt

Scion Tc specs:

Exterior
Length: 174 in. Width: 69.1 in.
Height: 55.7 in. Wheel Base: 106.3 in.
Ground Clearance: 5.2 in. Curb Weight: 2905 lbs.
Interior
Front Head Room: 37.6 in. Front Hip Room: 53.2 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 54.3 in. Rear Head Room: 36.6 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 50 in. Rear Hip Room: 47.3 in.
Front Leg Room: 41.6 in. Rear Leg Room: 33.6 in.
Luggage Capacity: 12.8 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 60 cu. ft.
Maximum Seating: 5

Performance
Base Number of Cylinders: 4 Base Engine Size: 2.4 liters
Base Engine Type: Inline 4 Horsepower: 160 hp
Max Horsepower: 6000 rpm Torque: 163 ft-lbs.
Max Torque: 4200 rpm Drive Type: FWD
Turning Circle: 36.1 ft.

Fuel
Fuel Tank Capacity: 14.5 gal.
EPA Mileage Estimates: (City/Highway)
Manual: 22 mpg / 29 mpg
Range in Miles: (City/Highway)
Manual: 319 mi. / 420.5 mi.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/scion/tc/1...denav..8.Scion*

 

[BigAls87Z28]

Chevy does have a good lead over the Scion, only problem is that the 2.4 is a year away.

 

[giagastormer]

I would take the Tc over the Cobalt any day of the week, and I am a huge GM fan, now that says something. You get a sh!tload of car for the money in the Tc, there is no denying that.

 

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally posted by giagastormer@Jul 6 2004, 06:33 PM
I would take the Tc over the Cobalt any day of the week, and I am a huge GM fan, now that says something. You get a sh!tload of car for the money in the Tc, there is no denying that.

outside of the giant glass roof, what exactly do you get more out of with the tC?

 

[gmwsag]

The tC will get sales, because it is just a 'sportier Toyota Celica/Camry' and it is also reliable...it isn't attractive...and the Cobalt isn't really either...the Cobalt is a great improvement...but doesn't offer any 'innovative' features such as the glass roof. This is a tough one....

 

[giagastormer]

Originally posted by bigals87z28+Jul 6 2004, 07:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigals87z28 @ Jul 6 2004, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-giagastormer@Jul 6 2004, 06:33 PM
I would take the Tc over the Cobalt any day of the week, and I am a huge GM fan, now that says something.  You get a sh!tload of car for the money in the Tc, there is no denying that.

outside of the giant glass roof, what exactly do you get more out of with the tC? [/b][/quote]
-Comfort and Convenience Features
-Air Conditioner
-Power Windows (with one-touch up/down on driver & passenger window w/ pinch protection)
-Power Door Locks with Remote Entry
-Power Outside Mirrors
-Panorama Moonroof with Power Slide/Tilt Front Glass Panel and Dual Manual Sunshades
-Rear Window Defogger
-Digital Clock
-Dual Power Points
-Outside Temperature Gauge
-Tilt-Steering Wheel
-Tachometer and Trip Meter
-Sport Front Bucket Seats with Fabric Upholstery and Driver's Seat Adjustable Height and Thigh Support
-Cruise Control
-Cargo Area Storage
-Driver's Seat One-Touch Walk-In w/ Track and Seat Angle Memory
-Reclining 60/40 Split Folding Rear Seat
-Rear Window Shading
-Driver and Passenger Sun Visor Mirror w/ Cover
-Hard Cargo Cover
-Amber Instrument Panel Illumination
-Exterior Features
-17" Alloy Wheels
-Multi-Reflector Auto-off Halogen Headlamps
-Side Mirrors with Turn Indicators
-Variable Intermittent Front Wipers
-Chrome Exhaust Tip
-Audio
-Pioneer AM/FM/CD Head Unit (MP3 and Satellite controller capable)
-Scion Sound Processing
-6-Speakers (including 2 tweeters)
-Rear Fender-Mount Antenna

Now that is alot of car for 16,400 dollars. No offense to the Cobalt, but I doubt you will get nearly all of that equipment for under 18,000 dollars. Like I said, the tC is alot more car for the money, and I am biased towards GM and I am saying I would rather have a tC. I wouldnt make my final decision until I test drove both or them though.

 

[Rex Raider]

We're going to have to see exact pricing for both models before we can really make a direct comparison.

 

[giagastormer]

Originally posted by Rex Raider@Jul 6 2004, 08:23 PM
We're going to have to see exact pricing for both models before we can really make a direct comparison.

You are right, we will just have to wait until final prices are announced for the Cobalt. Speaking of final prices, this thing goes on sale this fall, shouldnt prices have been released yet?

 

[Sparta]

im going to go with gigastormer on this one, im a huge GM fan but id take the TC over the Cobalt. The things you get with that car for the price you pay is unbelievable.

 

[paul8488]

Originally posted by gmwsag@Jul 6 2004, 07:21 PM
The tC will get sales, because it is just a 'sportier Toyota Celica/Camry' and it is also reliable...

by the only measurable we have (initial quality rankings), the scions actually aren't very reliable (compared with toyotas). so that won't help! unless of course people assume they're high quality because they're pseudo-toyotas (which they likely will!). price will sell these things though.

 

[BigAls87Z28]

The Cobalt should offer everything that the Scion offers for about the same price with more power.

 

[paul8488]

Originally posted by bigals87z28@Jul 6 2004, 08:38 PM
The Cobalt should offer everything that the Scion offers for about the same price with more power.

this is why i'm very curious to see the prices... i'll be shocked if the MSRP for a cobalt with all the same options is anywhere near $16,400. a cavalier LS coupe list price is $16,470, while a cavalier LS sport coupe starts at $17,975, with few of the really sweet tC goodies. GM has stated that the cobalt is moving upmarket (and upprice)... so i'm not holding my breath that it'll be tC specs AND tC price. should be a better car, but GM's gonna make you pay for that 'betterness'!

 

[gmwsag]

giaga: add better quality, durability, reliability to that list.
Toyota has been known for BETTER quality than GM has....and no one can say they haven't.

 

[Ming]

Originally posted by Rex Raider@Jul 6 2004, 03:23 PM
We're going to have to see exact pricing for both models before we can really make a direct comparison.

Yep. Don't compare the equipment level of a base cobalt to the Tc. And don't leave out inevitable discounts and rebates for the Cobalt, or jacked up "accessory" dealer pricing with the Scion.

In the end, I think you will have to choose - cool glass roof, or more power with a smaller sunroof.

I can't imagine the Tc will offer more value for the money - that's Chevy territory.

 

[paul8488]

Originally posted by Ming@Jul 6 2004, 08:52 PM
I can't imagine the Tc will offer more value for the money - that's Chevy territory.

as a rule chev offers value (lotsa car, little money), but right now, in the cavalier, they offer little car for little money. value, yes, if you prize a great engine with good power and little else... but i think many people would rather have a whole lot more going for their car than the engine.

cobalt's on track to be more car than the cavalier. at cavalier prices it'd be an incredible value, but since GM has admitted the car is moving upmarket, the 'value' factor diminishes.

cobalt: more car + more money (than the cavalier) = same value (as a cavalier)

simplified math here of course, but that's how i see it!

 

[gmwsag]

When will the General stop these horrible rebates?
I mean, someone is getting $7000, almost $10K rebate on a vehicle. GM is selling
& losing money.... yet Scion is selling & gaining money.....

 

[banzai79]

I'm not so sure the Cobalt is going up in price, but I don't think you'll get 5000 off of it anymore.

 

[Ming]

Also, just for fun, compare to the V6 Tiburon:

Manual 5-speed Transmission
Front Wheel Drive
Dual Chrome-Tipped Exhaust Outlets
P205/55R-16 Michelin Tires
Aluminum Alloy 16" Wheels
Non-CFC Air Conditioning
Power Windows w/Auto-down Driver's Window
Cruise Control
Intermittent Rear Window Wiper/Washer
Electric Rear Window Defroster w/Timer
AM/FM/CD Stereo w/6-speakers
Available Infinity® 360-Watt AM/FM/CD/Cassette Stereo w/6 Speakers and Subwoofer
Dual Front Airbags and Front Side-Impact Airbags
Keyless Remote Entry w/Alarm
Power Door Locks
Body Color Rear Spoiler

Tiburon GT V6 starting at $18,199

Standard Key Features over base model
V6 2.7-liter 172 Horsepower DOHC Engine
Available 6-Speed Manual Transmission
Bodycolor High Rear Spoiler
GT V6 Badging
Aluminum Alloy 17" Wheels
215/45R Michelin® Tires
Cargo Net
Deluxe Cut Pile Carpeting

 

[yoblues]

Someone said something about Scion quality vs Toyota quality. The TC is a Toyota not a Scion original model. It's a European model called the Avensis. It just was never sold here. They brought it over as a Scion. I think the best feature of the TC is that's its a hatchback that does not look like one. The thing about this car is the unbeatable price for what you get. That's what puzzeles me. How are they able to price it that low? I smell something rotten here.

 

[Ming]

Toyota and Lexus are Toyota Corp's Buick and Lexus.

Scion is their Japan market equivalent of Saturn or Chevrolet - cheap, value-packed, but cheap.

Look at Buick and Cadillac's quality rankings, near the top, ahead of the Toyota brand even.

The strange thing is, the xB and xA have been around in Japan for some years now - hardly any excuse for the poor quality.