[BigAls87Z28]

Well I was looking at this on coming weird looking blue car. There was some guard rail making the front end of the car hard to see, but after 2 sec of focusing on the car, I knew what it was. Yeah, it looks like a VW A8L. If you cut a passat in half, put about a foot of extra material between the 2 halfes, thats what it looks like. From the outside, it looked just like ever other VW. Only thing that caught my eye was the color and the size. It was much bigger then whatever was next to it. Like looking at a limo-esque car in a pack of other cars.

 

[bakerna]

I saw a phaeton a couple weeks ago, it's actually quite a bit larger than a passat...both width and length...and I'm sure it's a bit taller as well...it's quite classy and I mean I was looking through the window and everything but the interior looked very nice...charcoal leather and all...very impressive...mind you...you'd expect that stuff when you pay $90k for a car...lol

 

[mgescuro]

I saw a Phaeton on the road. Moments later, it was totalled in an accident. A car skidded into it during a rain storm.
It's a more "traditional" looking A8-L. It's ok. The car was silver.

The interior is interesting. I'm not a big fan of "vent-less" climate control. I like air blowing into my face as I drive. <_<

 

[thatoneguy]

Just got done driving around in the Phaeton, a friend has one for the weekend. The interior is superb. Plus its just beautiful on the outside. But one thing, there are so many shakes and little noises in the thing, i wonder if its gonna have some quality issues.

I can post pics of it later if anyone wants..

 

[babershah]

Yeah I was at my local VW dealership considering to buy a Passat and saw the Phaeton there, it was amazing, the exterior was long and the interior was finely crafted. I did not decide on wheter to sell my Mazda 6 yet and get a VW, maube I'll get a Buick Lacrosse instead, if the interior is NICE

 

[mgescuro]

Originally posted by thatoneguy@Jan 31 2004, 06:02 PM
Just got done driving around in the Phaeton, a friend has one for the weekend. The interior is superb. Plus its just beautiful on the outside. But one thing, there are so many shakes and little noises in the thing, i wonder if its gonna have some quality issues.

<_< Squeaks?? I don't recall hearing squeaks when I was in one in Munich this past summer.
A car with that much technology... especially new and unproven technology is bound to have quality issues. VW already has quality issues anyways. THey'll just be magnified.

 

[IMPALAon20s]

i think VW aimed to high on this one. o mean 64k for a v8. 94k for a w12 that both still that look like huge passats and still carry the VW name? VW recently has created a great name for itself with reliable quality(so i heard,but i have doubts) built cars, not sure that brand name is ready to compete with other cars in the 60+ market.

i saw the car and driver review of several cars in this market. VW finished dead last! noisy ride, boring styling, and nice but not up to par interior were its downfall.

 

[desmo9]

Originally posted by mgescuro@Jan 31 2004, 08:32 PM
I saw a Phaeton on the road. Moments later, it was totalled in an accident. A car skidded into it during a rain storm.
It's a more "traditional" looking A8-L. It's ok. The car was silver.

The interior is interesting. I'm not a big fan of "vent-less" climate control. I like air blowing into my face as I drive. <_<

The vents are there. When you engage the fans, a close-out panel opens up to reveal the vents. That way, when you are not using the HVAC system, you're looking at an uninterrupted wooden trim piece. It's actually pretty slick. Not really necessary, but how many of the features in that segment truly are?

BigAls is half-baked. Doesn't like the only affordable RWD V8 performance car out there because it says "Mustang" on the decklid. Despises retro stuff like Mini, even though it's been one of the few bright lights in recent years. Thinks the non-retro GTO is dull. And writes off the Phaeton -- which is a rather elegant car and not retro at all -- as a lengthened Passat. I think he's a hopeless case. Can't be satisfied with anything he sees. Confine him to a life behind the wheel of a 1975 Vega :lol:

 

[Tone]

The interesting Phaeton may be the five litre turbo-diesel. A little over 300 hp and over 500 foot pounds of torque. Even in the heavy Toureg, it managed 0 - 60s in the mid 6 second range, while getting good fuel economy.

VW has said it will bring the engine over in the Toureg, but it would be really interesting as a differentiator for the Phaeton as its one of the more interesting diesels out there right now

 

[desmo9]

Originally posted by IMPALAon20s@Feb 16 2004, 06:17 PM

i saw the car and driver review of several cars in this market. VW finished dead last! noisy ride, boring styling, and nice but not up to par interior were its downfall.

I saw the same review (I saw it on C&D TV, though). The Merc S430 finished below the Phaeton. Then, above the Phaeton, was 745, A8, Jag XJ, and the LS430. They noted that the A8 was alot different looking and feeling than the Phaeton, the Audi alot more sporty. So, whether people like them or not, it seems VW has at kept their personalities distinct. I happen to think the Phaeton was one of the nicest looking cars in the pack, certainly ahead of the LS430 (which C&D
described as bland, as always, but awarded victory on the basis of perceived quality and content for the dollar).

 

[IMPALAon20s]

Originally posted by desmo9+Feb 16 2004, 03:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (desmo9 @ Feb 16 2004, 03:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-IMPALAon20s@Feb 16 2004, 06:17 PM

i saw the car and driver review of several cars in this market.  VW finished dead last!  noisy ride, boring styling, and nice but not up to par interior were its downfall.

I saw the same review (I saw it on C&D TV, though). The Merc S430 finished below the Phaeton. Then, above the Phaeton, was 745, A8, Jag XJ, and the LS430. They noted that the A8 was alot different looking and feeling than the Phaeton, the Audi alot more sporty. So, whether people like them or not, it seems VW has at kept their personalities distinct. I happen to think the Phaeton was one of the nicest looking cars in the pack, certainly ahead of the LS430 (which C&D
described as bland, as always, but awarded victory on the basis of perceived quality and content for the dollar). [/b][/quote]
oh, my mistake.. forgot about them bashing the benz.

 

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally posted by desmo9@Feb 16 2004, 07:31 PM
BigAls is half-baked. Doesn't like the only affordable RWD V8 performance car out there because it says "Mustang" on the decklid. Despises retro stuff like Mini, even though it's been one of the few bright lights in recent years. Thinks the non-retro GTO is dull. And writes off the Phaeton -- which is a rather elegant car and not retro at all -- as a lengthened Passat. I think he's a hopeless case. Can't be satisfied with anything he sees. Confine him to a life behind the wheel of a 1975 Vega :lol:

You got a lot of nerve.
I DO like the GTO. Maybe you didnt notice the huge thread in the Pontiac board about me getting upset about people bashing teh GTO. And how did I "write off" the phateon? I said it looks like a big passat, which is if you read the reviews of everyone else here, seems to be pretty dead on. I didnt say the car was a big turd. I will never like the mustang, retro or not. And Im half baked? You should get some reading skills. I like a lot of the cars coming out from manufactures, but none of the cars you listed are them, other then the GTO. You dont even know wtf your talking about, nor do you understand what I am talking about. There are a lot of cars I do like, its just my view on the cars you like that upsets you. This has led to you many personal attacks of me on this site.

 

[desmo9]

Originally posted by bigals87z28+Feb 17 2004, 08:15 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigals87z28 @ Feb 17 2004, 08:15 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-desmo9@Feb 16 2004, 07:31 PM
BigAls is half-baked. Doesn't like the only affordable RWD V8 performance car out there because it says "Mustang" on the decklid. Despises retro stuff like Mini, even though it's been one of the few bright lights in recent years. Thinks the non-retro GTO is dull. And writes off the Phaeton -- which is a rather elegant car and not retro at all -- as a lengthened Passat. I think he's a hopeless case. Can't be satisfied with anything he sees. Confine him to a life behind the wheel of a 1975 Vega  :lol:

You got a lot of nerve.
I DO like the GTO. Maybe you didnt notice the huge thread in the Pontiac board about me getting upset about people bashing teh GTO. And how did I "write off" the phateon? I said it looks like a big passat, which is if you read the reviews of everyone else here, seems to be pretty dead on. I didnt say the car was a big turd. I will never like the mustang, retro or not. And Im half baked? You should get some reading skills. I like a lot of the cars coming out from manufactures, but none of the cars you listed are them, other then the GTO. You dont even know wtf your talking about, nor do you understand what I am talking about. There are a lot of cars I do like, its just my view on the cars you like that upsets you. This has led to you many personal attacks of me on this site. [/b][/quote]
Well typically when you write off a $70K model as looking like a big version of a $30K model... typically that's not the most flattering way to praise the $70K car. THe tone of your message was fairly negative toward the car. WHich is fine. It's your opinion. Just a convoluted one. Fact is, in many lineups, there is family resemblance across the range.

 

[SmallBlock]

The problem with the Phaeton is not one of content or dynamics, but image.

I'm sure that it is a very nice car, and can go through its paces commendably, but in a price range that borders on atmospheric. a certain amount of cachet is desired. These are vehicles that are meant to bestow (or portray) an air of elegance and exclusivity upon their owners.

No matter how you cook it (or apologise for it Desmo9), the Volkswagen brand does not conjure up images of sophisticated refinement. Its North American marketing scheme since its inception has revolved around being the anti-establishment vehicle of choice. The Phaeton goes completely counter to that by saying Volkswagen now IS the establishment. You could have confused the consumer more only by making a military-issue Beetle.

That is why the Phaeton will not be warmly received on these shores. Not because it isn't a well executed machine, but because it is a car in the wrong brand at the wrong time.

 

[Canuck]

VW is making a mistake. They are entering Audi territory. People who like German cars move into more expensive German brands from VW.
The Phateon is very much like an Audi.
If VW wants to have a 90k car make it different than an Audi.

 

[desmo9]

Is it remotely possible that a particular type of buyer wants or even needs a larger luxury car but does not want to be associated with a materialistic stigma associated with Mercedes, BMW, or even Audi? Chances are, many of these buyers would stop at Passat and not aspire for more. But I bet there are some out there, and the Phaeton would suit them. VW has already changed/improved it's image more in the past 10 years than any other brand in the world.

But here's what really gets me... the absolute hypocrisy here that Pontiac is going to somehow take on BMW and Buick is going to take on Lexus in the future, yet "the Volkswagen brand does not conjure up images of sophisticated refinement " thus Phaeton is over-the-top. Weak argument. If folks really believe that these images are cast in stone, then GM oughta throw in the towel right now on Pontiac and Buick. Fact is, whether or not folks think a $70K Buick is a good idea, most would be giddy over a flagship Buick with Phaeton's appeal.

 

[Rex Raider]

Originally posted by desmo9@Feb 17 2004, 02:56 PM
Is it remotely possible that a particular type of buyer wants or even needs a larger luxury car but does not want to be associated with a materialistic stigma associated with Mercedes, BMW, or even Audi? Chances are, many of these buyers would stop at Passat and not aspire for more. But I bet there are some out there, and the Phaeton would suit them. VW has already changed/improved it's image more in the past 10 years than any other brand in the world.

I don't see the logic. The person that wants a high-end luxury car doesn't buy it to be anonymous. They like the association that comes with the nametag. Otherwise, this person could just buy a Crown Victoria or TownCar.
Anyone that knows the Phaeton knows that it is a premium car even if the nameplate isn't a traditionally prestige name.

For the person that doesn't want the attention brought to them, and don't care what they drive, the Phaeton is way too expensive, and they would be justified at stopping at the Passat.

 

[mgescuro]

Originally posted by SmallBlock@Feb 17 2004, 01:32 PM
I'm sure that it is a very nice car, and can go through its paces commendably, but in a price range that borders on atmospheric. a certain amount of cachet is desired. These are vehicles that are meant to bestow (or portray) an air of elegance and exclusivity upon their owners.

No matter how you cook it (or apologise for it Desmo9), the Volkswagen brand does not conjure up images of sophisticated refinement. Its North American marketing scheme since its inception has revolved around being the anti-establishment vehicle of choice. The Phaeton goes completely counter to that by saying Volkswagen now IS the establishment. You could have confused the consumer more only by making a military-issue Beetle.

That is why the Phaeton will not be warmly received on these shores. Not because it isn't a well executed machine, but because it is a car in the wrong brand at the wrong time.

It is all about image. If VW wants to move upmarket, then it means moving into territory currently occupied by Audi. It also means "ignoring" the lower market for a while. How to fix that? Move Audi in another direction. Strengthen the lower market.

Let's see. Thus far, there is nothing going on in the lower market, other than the new Golf, which has failed to meet sales expectations thus far, and is meeting stiff competition from Opel in Europe, resulting in "incentives" from VW (free A/C). And VW is concentrating on a car between Passat and Phaeton. <_< Audi is seemingly moving into a more sportier segment. And those effects remain to be seen. TheCarConnection.com has pictures of the new A6 -- 5 engines, new front grille, and what I deem to be the most complex, convolued, and ugly dash I've seen in a long while. VW isn't doing well at all this year.

Phaeton hasn't been warmly received in the US (and Europe) because of a lot of things. It's mainly the image it's portraying, the high price tag (higher in Europe). No doubt that Phaeton has a lot of cool bells and whistles and the innovative "vent-less" climate control system, and 4Motion standard, but the people who can afford a car in this segment essentially wouldn't be caught dead in a VW.

 

[Canuck]

"a particular type of buyer wants or even needs a larger luxury car but does not want to be associated with a materialistic stigma associated with Mercedes, BMW, or even Audi?"
Sure this type of buyer exists but the better question is how many of these buyers exist? Generally if you have money to afford a high end car you will buy a high end car.
"the absolute hypocrisy here that Pontiac is going to somehow take on BMW and Buick is going to take on Lexus in the future"
Give it time. Pontiac is not going to be the same price point as BMW but will offer performance of BMW at a lower cost. Besides the One series will be a competitor to Pontiac at the similiar price points.
Since GM is spending billions on revamping Buick it is a safe bet Buick will experience a Caddy like return to glory.
Each divison will have its own style and buyer. VW's mistake is thinking it can be everything to everyone.

 

[mgescuro]

Originally posted by desmo9@Feb 17 2004, 01:56 PM
Is it remotely possible that a particular type of buyer wants or even needs a larger luxury car but does not want to be associated with a materialistic stigma associated with Mercedes, BMW, or even Audi? Chances are, many of these buyers would stop at Passat and not aspire for more. But I bet there are some out there, and the Phaeton would suit them. VW has already changed/improved it's image more in the past 10 years than any other brand in the world.

But here's what really gets me... the absolute hypocrisy here that Pontiac is going to somehow take on BMW and Buick is going to take on Lexus in the future, yet "the Volkswagen brand does not conjure up images of sophisticated refinement " thus Phaeton is over-the-top. Weak argument. If folks really believe that these images are cast in stone, then GM oughta throw in the towel right now on Pontiac and Buick. Fact is, whether or not folks think a $70K Buick is a good idea, most would be giddy over a flagship Buick with Phaeton's appeal.

Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to think that someone who doesn't want to be associated with a car with a "materialistic stigma" would even want a car in the $65K-94K range?? Don't you think making a purchase in that price range is a bit "materialistic?"

I don't think Pontiac will do well against BMW. I don't think Buick is up to speed yet to compete with the likes of Lexus. Neither brand has effectively marketed themselves in that way to date. What VW has done is market themselves as a counterculture car brand, much the way they did back in the 60's. THeir cars go forward and backwards. 'Nuff said. The VW's are a very "down-to-earth," "car for everyone" brand. And that's the way it has been for the last 10 years as they began remaking themselves. Now all of a sudden, they have a $65K "car for everyone?" True, $65K wouldn't pay for an outhouse where I live, but in a lot of places in teh country, it can buy a house or be a significant down on a house. Not exactly the car for the "car for everyone" brand, is it? "Sohpisticated refinement" may be the vehicle itself... but it is not reflected in the VW brand. Yes.. the US is very brand centric and Europe is less so. But Phaeton isn't selling well there either... even with the lower end V6 model. So something else is going on.

So to be blunt and a bit facetious.... "If VW has done such an amazing job refixing themselves and reworking themselves, why does Phaeton suck so much that no one is buying it because they seemingly have a lot of features that equate it with 'better' brands?"

I wouldn't be happy to see a Buick over $50K.... for all the same reasons I think VW shouldn't be in the >$50K range.