GM Inside News Forum banner
1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,121 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I guess I’ve had my head in the clouds or something. But it occurred to me just tonight the GM has a total of five (5) crossovers that will based on several variants of Theta II/Theta-Epsilon and this is all beginning to look like the earlier part of the decade with the GMT-360 platform.

The Epsilon platform is home to the Malibu, Aura, G6, 9-3, and Lacrosse.

The Lambda platform underpins the Traverse, Outlook, Acadia, and Enclave, with rumors of more to follow.

Platform sharing is good, and its a lucrative way of building many vehicles for the masses. But, I, like many others have a better idea. - Its about reducing the number of different vehicles that GM produces. There is no reason that GM can’t produce a Traverse and an Enclave and leave it at that. There is no market that is being left out, and it saves more money for other things, marketing, bills, etc.

Another issue I’ve seen is the different “sizes” of vehicles that GM is coming up with. The Beat is supposedly smaller than the Aveo, the Cobalt smaller than the Cruze, etc. This is no way to do business and it doesn’t help the bottom line.

Chevy: Sales Channel #1
Beat
Cruze
Malibu
Impala
Equinox
Traverse
Colorado
Silverado
Tahoe
Suburban

Buick: Sales Channel #2
Regal
Lacrosse
Rendezvous
Enclave

Pontiac:
Solstice
Grand Prix
Bonneville

Saturn:
Corsa
Astra
Zafira

GMC:
Heavy Duty versions of pickups

Cadillac: Sales Channel #3
BTS
CTS
DTS
SRX
Escalade
XLR

Saab:
9-3 - Delta II
9-4x
9-5 - Epsilon II
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,732 Posts
tell me what platforms they are on. I have no idea what platform the GrandPrix is on....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,963 Posts
Great idea overall.
I would remove Pontiac all together IMO.
Saturn could move into PBG dealers with small Opels, while Buick has the Insigna.
Saturn could help bring in youngsters with hot compacts and MPV's while Buick takes care of the upper end.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
23,621 Posts
What frustrates me is that it's made worse by the number of vehicles that exist in one market but not others.

Why are the Captiva and Equinox different vehicles?
Why hasn't the Insignia been approved for the US yet? Or the Epica two years ago?
Why is there a different midsize pickup in North America, Australia, and Thailand?
Why could the G8 make it to the US and not the Park Avenue?

Not saying every car needs to be in every market... but when similar models exist GM REALLY has to save their time and money and effort and quit doubling up... like with the Epsilons... Malibu and Epica should be paired, and either Aura and Insignia or G6 and Insignia should be paired. All this overlap costs a fortune and doesn't make sense if the vehicles aren't sold in the same market.

The Equinox is my big pet peeve... while the new one is great and better than the Captiva (3rd row aside), why wasn't the tired old Equinox merged with the Captiva when the Captiva came out? Both could have survied into 2010 and been replaced by one new model. Instead, the Captiva dies probably haven't paid for themselves yet and GM is retooling for a new similar-sized and priced CUV. Crazy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
831 Posts
Lambda needs to be an suv, a pickup, a car and a van. Not four different flavors of the same suv. The same goes for Theta etc. Just a couple platforms and bunches of varieties of vehicles. Fixed costs drop dramatically with quality climbing exponentially. Easier said than done, however this should have been implemented more than a decade ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,579 Posts
Really, why would GM ever need the BTS if they took care of the Saab? It is expensive to develop and has every chance to fail...

Also, what's with Grand Prix and Bonneville? And where's Hummer?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
954 Posts
I do think it would be better for GM to have some more global models, I mean toyota doesn't sell everything here that it sells in the USA, but toyota et al sure do have a fair few global cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,880 Posts
Why hasn't the Insignia been approved for the US yet?

Why is there a different midsize pickup in North America, Australia, and Thailand?
I can answer these two. The Insignia has been approved for the US, as the Buick Regal. And the pickup markets are different because the US demands much heavier duty than everyone else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,371 Posts
I think its good the GM has several different models on the same platform. Some people don't like the new Malibu, but they like the G6 or the Aura. Some people don't like the Outlook, but they like the Acadia or Enclave.

I think GM is improving their badge-engineering techniques. The platform sharers are starting to get their own personalities.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
962 Posts
I think its good the GM has several different models on the same platform. Some people don't like the new Malibu, but they like the G6 or the Aura. Some people don't like the Outlook, but they like the Acadia or Enclave.

I think GM is improving their badge-engineering techniques. The platform sharers are starting to get their own personalities.
Agreed...theres is nothing wrong with choice and if they get rid of that then all we will get are boring "Toyota like" watered down cars that are made to appeal to the masses, but don't generate any real excitement or passion within them. Choice between the divisions allows GM to make a bolder design that may not appeal to everyone, but that's why they have a choice. IMO...limiting choice is never a good thing.

Nonetheless, there are some obvious badge jobs such as the G3 and G5 that don't really need to exist as they are not much different. But examples like the G6, Malibu, and Aura sohws you that GM can differentiate the platform enough where they don't even look like they are basically the same underneath.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,071 Posts
Why are the Captiva and Equinox different vehicles?
The Equinox was in the final stages of development when GM took over Daewoo. The Captiva was created because GM needed a global small SUV, and the Equinox was obviously too crappy to handle the job.

The upcoming Equinox was needed because the Captiva would have been too old a design to be "new" for 2010. GM could have just replaced the Equinox with the Captiva when it was launched, but the 'nox was barely three years old at that time, and retooling for the Captiva would have cost some heavy bucks.

Why is there a different midsize pickup in North America, Australia, and Thailand?
Holden got the Isuzu design because the Colorado wasn't launched simulataneously with the D-Max in Thailand. But the pre-facelift Thai Colorado was the same as ours, except for different powerplants and differing trim.

Why could the G8 make it to the US and not the Park Avenue?
Because GM are stupid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,121 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Everything stated above is a good idea, I really need to look into this more and think about how this could work. But the opinions of others point out that my own lineup has several redundancies and each brand within the sales channel is to supplement the other. In essence, Saturn-Pontiac-Buick and GMC are = to Chevrolet.

Hummer could take care of all body on frame designed vehicles while Cadillac focus on crossovers and cars.

Using Saab for smaller cars rather than Cadillac would be an excellent idea. Really, there is no need for a Saab larger than a vehicle based on Epsilon II and there is no need for a Cadillac smaller than the CTS.

But I'll think about it today and post some updates based on what others have suggested and what I believe later this evening.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,898 Posts
How about addressing the odd sizes that GM offers? Like how the Impala is definitely bigger than a Malibu but not big enough to be a full size?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,579 Posts
This is why I believe the Impala will eventually die. The only non-luxury fullsizer on sale by GM will be the Buick LaCrosse (though it gets darn near-luxury).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,121 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
tell me what platforms they are on. I have no idea what platform the GrandPrix is on....
The Grand Prix would be on Epsilon II, basically the Opel Insignia. But this comment really made me think about how I still have unreasonable amounts of overlap in my lineup.

Great idea overall.
I would remove Pontiac all together IMO.
Saturn could move into PBG dealers with small Opels, while Buick has the Insigna.
Saturn could help bring in youngsters with hot compacts and MPV's while Buick takes care of the upper end.
I was thinking that since Buick already has the excellent Lacrosse, and since I read on Edmunds.com that the Insignia was such an excellent car, it should be sold in America. So I figured that they could make it kind of sporty and it would be different than the Lacrosse even if they were similar. There is a customer base for Pontiac - look at the late Grand Prix and current G6. This is a "niche" that GM shouldn't forget about.

What frustrates me is that it's made worse by the number of vehicles that exist in one market but not others.

Why are the Captiva and Equinox different vehicles?
Why hasn't the Insignia been approved for the US yet? Or the Epica two years ago?
Why is there a different midsize pickup in North America, Australia, and Thailand?
Why could the G8 make it to the US and not the Park Avenue?
I couldn't agree more. These are expensive mistakes that could be fixed semi-easily. In the end there would be more development money for one global vehicle than there would be for 2 or 3 different vehicles that aren't even specialized for each market.

Lambda needs to be an suv, a pickup, a car and a van.
If you think about it, GM could get a rebadged minivan from Chrysler for probably next to nothing. They really don't need more cars and a crossover is basically an SUV with better gas mileage. I can see where you are going with the pickup idea but that's only if GM can make a better Ridgeline than Honda. When the Silverado does better on gas than the unibody Ridgeline with a V6, there's something wrong.

1. Really, why would GM ever need the BTS if they took care of the Saab? It is expensive to develop and has every chance to fail...

2. Also, what's with Grand Prix and Bonneville? And where's Hummer?
1. This is actually a good point. The BTS failed in Europe where it wasn't a true 3 Series competitor, but it wasn't doing any good except filling out the portfolio of Cadillac. Basically what is being said, and what I'm agreeing with is 9-3 > BTS.

2. Grand Prix is basically a rebadged Insignia with a sporty character. This is a car that is styled more dynamically than the Malibu, and doesn't have the near luxury charm of the Lacrosse. The Bonneville is just the G8, but with a more traditional nameplate.

In regards to Hummer. I wasn't sure to place it in Sales Channel #2 or #3. It could do very well as a Jeep competitor, but that would move a brand that is somewhat upmarket down. But it could be sold next to Saab and Cadillac which it would also do well in, but would face more fierce competition - Land Rover.

Agreed...theres is nothing wrong with choice and if they get rid of that then all we will get are boring "Toyota like" watered down cars that are made to appeal to the masses, but don't generate any real excitement or passion within them...limiting choice is never a good thing.
This is true, but does the Malibu ooze passion? I'm not suggesting that we keep the Malibu and nothing else. I'm saying that the Malibu as the volume leader should appeal to the masses. A Pontiac version would be sportier and appeal to that crowd, the Buick would appeal to this crowd. And that's all you need. The Aura is redundant. The G6, to an extend is redundant.

Chevy: Sales Channel #1
Beat - Gamma I
Cruze - Delta II
Malibu - Epsilon II
Equinox - Theta II?
Traverse - Lambda I
Colorado - GMT365
Silverado - GMT900
Tahoe - GMT900
Suburban - GMT900

Buick: Sales Channel #2
Regal - Epsilon II (SWB)
Lacrosse - Epsilon II
Rendezvous - Theta II?
Enclave - Lambda I

Pontiac:
Solstice - Epsilon II(SWB with RWD biased AWD)
Grand Prix - Epsilon II (Opel Insignia with RWD biased AWD)
Bonneville - Zeta I (G8)

Saturn:
Corsa - Gamma I
Astra - Delta II
Zafira - Delta II

GMC:
Heavy Duty versions of pickups

Cadillac: Sales Channel #3
CTS - Sigma II/Sigma-Zeta
DTS - LWB Sigma II/Sigma-Zeta
SRX - Theta-Epsilon
Escalade - Lambda I
XLR - Sigma II/Sigma-Zeta

Saab:
9-3 - Delta II
9-4x - Theta-Epsilon
9-5 - Epsilon II
Sonnet - SWB Epsilon II (RWD w/ Haldex AWD - same as Solstice)

Hummer:
I don’t really know what to do with Hummer. Any suggestions?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,579 Posts
Grand Prix - Epsilon II (Opel Insignia with RWD biased AWD)
Aren't you getting the foot-in-mouth vibe? What do you need the GrandPrix for when you have the Regal, which IS a rebadged Insignia? Can we also quit the "RWD biased AWD" stupidity, it's a transverse-engined car, it will NOT be a RWD car whatever you do to it. And there is NOTHING wrong with FWD really, it's just that car magazines can't figure out why people buy Mercedes and BMW so they've figured out it MUST be RWD.

Solstice - Epsilon II(SWB with RWD biased AWD)
Computer says: Kappa

Bonneville - Zeta I (G8)
I'd say Grand Prix here.

Corsa - Gamma I
It's Gamma 2 already

Sigma II/Sigma-Zeta
You're looking for Alpha

DTS - LWB Sigma II/Sigma-Zeta
DTS rather than STS?

Sonnet - SWB Epsilon II (RWD w/ Haldex AWD - same as Solstice)
Do you mean "inverted Epsilon" with a rear engine for RWD???

Hummer:
I don’t really know what to do with Hummer. Any suggestions?
Keep as is, just introduce smaller vehicles - a Theta or two. It sells on styling, not the BOF thing, so it can basically even be Gamma ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
515 Posts
Aren't you getting the foot-in-mouth vibe? What do you need the GrandPrix for when you have the Regal, which IS a rebadged Insignia?
The Grand Prix and the Regal would take different approaches: sport and luxury, respectively. Pontiacs and Buicks attract quite different types of buyers. My wife's '02 Bonneville SLE's sporty looks and ride/handling was much more appealing to her than the sedate, soft-riding LeSabre. Plenty of room in the market for variants of the same platform with different target buyers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,883 Posts
The Grand Prix and the Regal would take different approaches: sport and luxury, respectively. Pontiacs and Buicks attract quite different types of buyers. My wife's '02 Bonneville SLE's sporty looks and ride/handling was much more appealing to her than the sedate, soft-riding LeSabre. Plenty of room in the market for variants of the same platform with different target buyers.

I would agree with you given the 2002 paradigm, but in economy conscience 2009? Today she would probably choose the Malibu and call it a day.:yup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,121 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Aren't you getting the foot-in-mouth vibe? What do you need the GrandPrix for when you have the Regal, which IS a rebadged Insignia? Can we also quit the "RWD biased AWD" stupidity, it's a transverse-engined car, it will NOT be a RWD car whatever you do to it. And there is NOTHING wrong with FWD really, it's just that car magazines can't figure out why people buy Mercedes and BMW so they've figured out it MUST be RWD.
Computer says: Kappa
I'd say Grand Prix here.
It's Gamma 2 already
You're looking for Alpha
DTS rather than STS?
Do you mean "inverted Epsilon" with a rear engine for RWD???
Keep as is, just introduce smaller vehicles - a Theta or two. It sells on styling, not the BOF thing, so it can basically even be Gamma ;)
Given the revitalization that Buick is receiving, it makes Pontiac seem even more irrelevant. GM claims to want to turn Pontiac into a niche brand, but I don’t know if it would need a volume seller to make up for its losses.

I’m not going to pretend to understand why there can not be an AWD system that is biased to the rear wheels, I thought I heard of it being done and it would make the Grand Prix slightly different from the Lacrosse. Basically the Grand Prix is irrelevant and is off the list.

I was also under the impression that the Alpha platform was shelved. If this platform was to be put in use, it could underpin the Solstice/Sonnet while a more premium version - Alpha-Sigma would underpin the CTS.

The original idea for Cadillac was BTS-CTS-DTS. But since the BTS was agreeably thrown out the door, it makes sense for the STS to stay as it was RWD and would evolve.

“Do you mean "inverted Epsilon" with a rear engine for RWD??? ” - As far as anything like this, I plead ignorance. I’m just looking for a solution and have no idea how to get there.

It would also be interesting to sell Hummer in Sales Channel #2, (Buick-Pontiac-Saturn-GMC) as it would give those dealers a few products that would take the place of the non-commercial GMC trucks and it would give GM a viable Jeep competitor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,872 Posts
What frustrates me is that it's made worse by the number of vehicles that exist in one market but not others.

Why are the Captiva and Equinox different vehicles?
Why hasn't the Insignia been approved for the US yet? Or the Epica two years ago?
Why is there a different midsize pickup in North America, Australia, and Thailand?
Why could the G8 make it to the US and not the Park Avenue?

Not saying every car needs to be in every market... but when similar models exist GM REALLY has to save their time and money and effort and quit doubling up... like with the Epsilons... Malibu and Epica should be paired, and either Aura and Insignia or G6 and Insignia should be paired. All this overlap costs a fortune and doesn't make sense if the vehicles aren't sold in the same market.

The Equinox is my big pet peeve... while the new one is great and better than the Captiva (3rd row aside), why wasn't the tired old Equinox merged with the Captiva when the Captiva came out? Both could have survied into 2010 and been replaced by one new model. Instead, the Captiva dies probably haven't paid for themselves yet and GM is retooling for a new similar-sized and priced CUV. Crazy.
This is exactly the problem with Ford which I hammered them on a while ago.

I'll try to reply to the thread's main topic later.
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top