GM Inside News Forum banner
21 - 40 of 43 Posts
BYD and Tesla dominate the top 10 sales list in China, but GM’s Wuling partnership has #5 on there: the Mini EV. Maybe there’s some hope.


EDIT: Sales are UP the last five months in a row, +200K in November. Not sure what’s going on, is this a “death spiral”.

“General Motors and its joint ventures in China delivered over 200,000 vehicles in November, marking the fifth consecutive month-on-month sales increase.”

 
I do wonder what keeps Ford and GM in the country, but this is a market I understand the least and I don't know how much room there is for underachieving American automakers with weak brand equity. They may see potential, especially if the current EV bubble bursts in China and they are left standing. But it's hard getting around the fact that American automakers are obsolete and the gap is growing exponentially with no effort to close it. I don't see any potential to move forward as volume automakers, but perhaps with niche low volume products like Corvettes and Broncos, Escalades and Navigators...etc. China is still a huge growing market with extremely affordable engineering and manufacturing, Lincoln is massively profitable in China for example. So just staying course may be sufficient, assuming you're not falling from previous heights like VW and GM.
 
I do wonder what keeps Ford and GM in the country, but this is a market I understand the least and I don't know how much room there is for underachieving American automakers with weak brand equity. They may see potential, especially if the current EV bubble bursts in China and they are left standing. But it's hard getting around the fact that American automakers are obsolete and the gap is growing exponentially with no effort to close it. I don't see any potential to move forward as volume automakers, but perhaps with niche low volume products like Corvettes and Broncos, Escalades and Navigators...etc. China is still a huge growing market with extremely affordable engineering and manufacturing, Lincoln is massively profitable in China for example. So just staying course may be sufficient, assuming you're not falling from previous heights like VW and GM.
China's market isn't growing anymore. Their birthrate is way below replacement level (meaning one person dies and one is born - 2.1 is the ratio to keep the population flat and China is currently at 1.013), and many Chinese manufacturers are facing declining demand as Western makes move their sourcing to less hostile countries. But still a huge market where money can be made.

I think the Western brands, including GM, had/have good brand equity - Buick in particular.

To your overall point I agree it is time for GM to get out of the mainstream market in China and focus on the higher end.
 
I do wonder what keeps Ford and GM in the country, but this is a market I understand the least and I don't know how much room there is for underachieving American automakers with weak brand equity. They may see potential, especially if the current EV bubble bursts in China and they are left standing. But it's hard getting around the fact that American automakers are obsolete and the gap is growing exponentially with no effort to close it. I don't see any potential to move forward as volume automakers, but perhaps with niche low volume products like Corvettes and Broncos, Escalades and Navigators...etc. China is still a huge growing market with extremely affordable engineering and manufacturing, Lincoln is massively profitable in China for example. So just staying course may be sufficient, assuming you're not falling from previous heights like VW and GM.
For the last couple of years, Ford has been trying to hide China and it’s mounting losses under
different divisions but in more recent times, that’s not possible anymore….

Everyone is waiting for the other shoe to drop but honestly, it takes a lot guts to go tell Bill Ford and the board that Ford is done in China. Ford basically abandoned its ROW markets to go chase China and now, chickens have come home to roost.
 
GM’s Wuling partnership has #5 on there: the Mini EV. Maybe there’s some hope.
Good find dannyg. Wuling Hongguang Mini EV is by far the most successful mass-produced electrified car ever fielded by GM or its subsidiaries anywhere in the world.

Wuling Xingguang S (aka Starlight S) has also been well received in the China domestic market:

Image
 
Good find dannyg. Wuling Hongguang Mini EV is by far the most successful mass-produced electrified car ever fielded by GM or its subsidiaries anywhere in the world.

Wuling Xingguang S (aka Starlight S) has also been well received in the China domestic market
If it can't make high enough profit margins...it needs to go.
Just like so many other models.
 
GM China 4Q sales:

"Deliveries in China jumped 40.6% quarter on quarter to nearly 600,000 units, following the 14.3% sequential sales gain in Q3. It was the highest quarter-on-quarter increase since Q2 2022. In 2024, the company delivered over 1.8 million vehicles in China. "


We'll know about profits when that info is released later this month. We'll see what 2025 brings, but I'd say reports of "death spiral" are highly exaggerated.
 
We'll see what 2025 brings, but I'd say reports of "death spiral" are highly exaggerated.
Thanks again dannyg. I figured that GM would be proactive in strengthening its operations for the company's highest volume market, and it appears they actually did.

General Motors said:
General Motors and its joint ventures continued to boost their sales momentum in the fourth quarter of 2024, as proactive actions to improve product competitiveness and the retail experience started to take effect.
General Motors said:
The Buick GL8 family continued to dominate China’s premium MPV market, becoming the first model series to break 2 million units in production and sales in September. Deliveries of the PHEV version have surpassed 23,000 units since its launch in the second quarter of 2024. The all-new Cadillac XT5, launched in September, booked deliveries of nearly 15,000 units in Q4, its first complete quarter. The Wuling Hong Guang MINIEV family achieved sales of over 100,000 units in Q4, with total annual sales exceeding 260,000 units.
General Motors said:
The Durant Guild, GM’s premium import vehicle and lifestyle platform, introduced the Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon last year. Deliveries of the two full-size SUVs will start in March 2025. The Durant Guild now operates seven brand experience centers across key cities in China, with plans to open seven additional facilities in 2025.
 
I do wonder what keeps Ford and GM in the country, but this is a market I understand the least and I don't know how much room there is for underachieving American automakers with weak brand equity. They may see potential, especially if the current EV bubble bursts in China and they are left standing. But it's hard getting around the fact that American automakers are obsolete and the gap is growing exponentially with no effort to close it. I don't see any potential to move forward as volume automakers, but perhaps with niche low volume products like Corvettes and Broncos, Escalades and Navigators...etc. China is still a huge growing market with extremely affordable engineering and manufacturing, Lincoln is massively profitable in China for example. So just staying course may be sufficient, assuming you're not falling from previous heights like VW and GM.
Look back at the Model T durring Emerging Market Era like China's today.

It wasn't the Most Technoligy Equipped Vehicle, Heck even an Electric Starter didn't dent sales that much.

It was Affordable, Easy to Maintain and Cheap to Own/Operate. Nothing from North America, can compete in those areas against China's Own Manufacturers.
 
But they aren't cheap cars, they are fully featured and extremely high tech cars that happen to be cheap. Not to mention the incredible speed at which they are brought to market, and without major problems and production snags. It's just a wildly different environment and unless you're in it, you're WAY out of it and there is no catching up. But that's today, who knows what tomorrow brings.
 
The whole "Way of Doing Things" just won't work in Today's environment. With Global Warming Concerns, or Lack of Available Crude, what ever is behind the Governments Push to Alternatives, and North American Manufactures, Depending on Cash Cow, Gas Guzzling, Full Size Market, Unable to make a Profit for years on Compact Cars/CUVs, they are defeated in Both Ways.

Gm's Ventures with Suzuki, Yota, Isuzu, purchase of Defunkt Daewoo, Fords Ventures with Mazda, Hyundai, Chrysler with Mitsubishi, all of these Date Way Back to the 70's. And have any of them Fixed the Problem?

So now they are faced with "How to make a Profit selling Small Clean Cars" and China already has that Wrapped Up
 
China's market isn't growing anymore. Their birthrate is way below replacement level (meaning one person dies and one is born - 2.1 is the ratio to keep the population flat and China is currently at 1.013), and many Chinese manufacturers are facing declining demand as Western makes move their sourcing to less hostile countries. But still a huge market where money can be made.
The US birthrate is below replacement level too. It's currently at 1.62.

I think the Western brands, including GM, had/have good brand equity - Buick in particular.
Buick yes. But I wonder just how important the Buick brand is now in China.

To your overall point I agree it is time for GM to get out of the mainstream market in China and focus on the higher end.
So, you want to take the same strategy in the US as well? Because that's essentially the direction GM is going.
 
The whole "Way of Doing Things" just won't work in Today's environment. With Global Warming Concerns, or Lack of Available Crude, what ever is behind the Governments Push to Alternatives, and North American Manufactures, Depending on Cash Cow, Gas Guzzling, Full Size Market, Unable to make a Profit for years on Compact Cars/CUVs, they are defeated in Both Ways.

Gm's Ventures with Suzuki, Yota, Isuzu, purchase of Defunkt Daewoo, Fords Ventures with Mazda, Hyundai, Chrysler with Mitsubishi, all of these Date Way Back to the 70's. And have any of them Fixed the Problem?

So now they are faced with "How to make a Profit selling Small Clean Cars" and China already has that Wrapped Up
GM needs to move faster and be open to doing things to improve success in the Chinese market.
This means improving designs and adding high tech features.

The problem I'm having is why a lot of what is created for the Chinese market doesn't make it to the US market.

Basic things like the quality of the interior.
Why does the Chinese XT6 have a better interior than the US?
It's the small things that needs to be done.

Image
 
Yes, it is very puzzling why the Chinese-developed vehicles are designed with higher-quality materials. I suspect it is money driven. For Cadilac models, there is no excuse.
It might be money driven.
But I'm actually thinking it's customer driven. I think the Chinese customers WANT the higher quality interior and design aspects.
But that's where I get stuck as well. Wouldn't American customers benefit from the improved interior, even if it costs a little more? It's a Cadillac, right? So the customers will be less price sensitive (presumably). And the customers would want the better interior in the first place. Plus it would improve Cadillac's first impression when comparing the Germans, which offer their best interiors in the US market and don't offer their lower end interiors at all or in select models only.

This isn't a new trend with Cadillac either. We can go all the way back to the Chinese Cadillac SLS and the head scratching decision to not bring that interior to the US.

Image


VS

Image
 
Basic things like the quality of the interior.
Why does the Chinese XT6 have a better interior than the US?
It's the small things that needs to be done.

View attachment 74072
Cost Cutting? The XT6 interior has been widely derided for its interior quality relative to its price point. I don't understand why you aren't giving your best effort in your most profitable market, makes no sense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lowboy and mgescuro
China's market isn't growing anymore. Their birthrate is way below replacement level (meaning one person dies and one is born - 2.1 is the ratio to keep the population flat and China is currently at 1.013), and many Chinese manufacturers are facing declining demand as Western makes move their sourcing to less hostile countries. But still a huge market where money can be made.

I think the Western brands, including GM, had/have good brand equity - Buick in particular.

To your overall point I agree it is time for GM to get out of the mainstream market in China and focus on the higher end.
China is a New Emerging Market, meaning, they are not Replacing their Cars, they are replacing their Rickshaws and Motorcycles. Much like the Model T replaced Horse and Carriage. 15 Million copies in under 20 years.
 
The US birthrate is below replacement level too. It's currently at 1.62.



Buick yes. But I wonder just how important the Buick brand is now in China.



So, you want to take the same strategy in the US as well? Because that's essentially the direction GM is going.
Yes, below replacement level via birthrate, but there is another way go gain a growing population (and I don't want to turn this into a political thread, so I'll leave it at that).

Yup, similar strategy to the USA, or maybe more like other countries with just Cadillac and a few other high-end models. I don't know that GM China can duplicate the GM NA success as I don't believe expensive trucks are a big thing in China. The only other option, an unlikely one in my eyes, I see for GM China is to really go all in on the lower end and use that as a hub to build up an international presence in the lower end to build even more volume
 
Yes, below replacement level via birthrate, but there is another way go gain a growing population (and I don't want to turn this into a political thread, so I'll leave it at that).

Yup, similar strategy to the USA, or maybe more like other countries with just Cadillac and a few other high-end models. I don't know that GM China can duplicate the GM NA success as I don't believe expensive trucks are a big thing in China. The only other option, an unlikely one in my eyes, I see for GM China is to really go all in on the lower end and use that as a hub to build up an international presence in the lower end to build even more volume
To some degree GM is exporting Wuling/Baojun to places like Latin America. I don't know how many units, some cars like Onix are made in China and sold in Mexico, and now there's the Wuling Starlight S going to Latin America.


(2022 link about Mexico's Onix built in China.)
 
  • Helpful
Reactions: gkr778
21 - 40 of 43 Posts