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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
GMIer's,

I got impassioned earlier today by a thread about pontiac and cafe and its future to the point that I believe my idea deserves its own thread.

Who is Pontiac's competition? Dodge? Mazda/Nissan/Honda? Saturn? Ford? Hyundai? Kia?

Honestly, and who will buy all rwd vehicles from Pontiac that get 1-3mpg less than their Chevy/Saturn/Buick/SAAB counterparts across the board with less interior room, less usable space, and a 1-3k premium for designing a rwd over fwd car? Obviously the gearheads on GMI will say "Gladly, now give me my G4 on Alpha!" But how many people will actually fork over all that cash year in and year out in order to support Pontiac's RWD lineup when it has low volumes of G8/Solstice and HAD low volumes of Fbody...?

Below is situation that started all of this: (nothing personal against anyone:))

Originally Posted by eb110americana
GM, you've got FWD cars covered. There are myriad Chevrolets to chose from. If people want something a bit more swoopy, sporty, or import intended, there's Saturn. If they want something even more sporty and luxurious, there's Saab. Even Buick will support the FWD luxury class at it's lower end. That's 4 brands already that specifically cater to FWD of whatever flavor you could desire. Oldsmobile died because the market couldn't support a single one more. Stop building overlapping products. Enthusiasts want RWD Pontiacs, and while there is a market for FWD cars, you offer sufficient choices already.

We know Alpha is coming, so don't miss out on a Pontiac version. Kappa is already here, and in about 10 years time the market will be flooded with 1-Series sized cars, so get a sedan on Kappa under Pontiac after Alpha. The Commodore-don't-call-it-Zeta platform is a great start in the G8, but this is the one I see least likely surviving 2020 with much in the way of performance chops left. 3 RWD platforms, 3 sedans, and at least 2 coupe/sportscar/2 door variants. Is it that much to ask not to have more variants of Cobalts, Matrices, Malibu/Aura, etc.?
Oh wait!

NO THEY DON'T!

Ever heard of a (non-comprehensive list, but majority) Mazda3, Mazdaspeed3, Mazda6, (formerly) MazdaSpeed6, Nissan Versa, Sentra-SE-R, Altima, Altima SE-R, Maxima, Honda Fit, Civic, Civic Si, Accord Sedan/Coupe I4 and V6, Dodge Caliber, Caliber SRT4, (Charger is RWD V6/V8 vehicle for which G8 competes with), Dodge Avenger...oh wait, all those cars are RWD. we should make all rwd pontiacs YAY! :rolleyes:

THAT SHOULD BE PONTIACS COMPETITION SET AND ANYONE WHO THINKS OTHERWISE MIGHT WANT TO LOOK UP THE DEFINITION OF 'ignorant', 'mis-informed', 'not-informed', 'delusional', 'irrationale', or 'Kool-Aid' SOON...

What other rwd car lineup of a mainstream non-luxury brand is there? Oh wait, there isn't one. So you are just fragmenting the market even more (no matter how cool that might be), it costs more to engineer a RWD car, more to operate one, and it eats at leg room and interior space. I'd rather compete with the above said brands than try and create a whole new niche that won't support itself. Seriously. Get a grip people. RWD is alot of fun, especially at the drag/track, but logically thinking for most women and family cars/minivans/crossovers (majority of under 30k sales) its not very logical.

CobaltSS

More about it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by eb110americana
Cobalt SS, you sound like a bean counter to me. You look at something new and innovative, an untapped market and shriek in terror. "No one else does it, so it can't be done! It's unproven. Run away! Run away..." Yeah, Pontiac could lose its shirt building something at a price-point no one else does, that's called risk. And guess what, if you never take any risks, try anything new, you'll aways be playing catch up.

More than that, what made Pontiac truly great back in the day was not that it indisputably built the greatest muscle cars ever made. No. It was that it INVENTED the muscle car genre with the GTO. That is risk my friend. Even GM would have stopped them if it didn't sneak past as an option package. And Pontiac continued to make history with daring designs and performance for quite some time.

You obviously like sport compacts and that's great, no one is denying that. Better yet, GM sells a Cobalt SS that is so perfect for you that you chose it as your screenname. Also good. As I said before, GM makes a LOT of FWD cars that you should be attracted to and can choose from. Where we part ways is your idea to force everyone into your ideal car. FWD still makes up probably 90% of the cars GM sells, and your here fighting tooth and nail to kill off any choices for anyone else because you must have MORE?!

If your argument is that RWD is simply not a logical choice, then don't buy one. How hard is that? Don't speak for the rest of us that actually DO want RWD. You want logical, go buy a used Corolla. Meanwhile, Hyundai's Genesis coupe and sedan, the Mustang, Chrysler 300, Charger, Challenger, RX-8, Miata/MX-5, BMW 1-Series, 350Z, G35, G37, and probably a future Toyota Trueno will all be looking to pick up those entry buyers who might have otherwise walked into a Pontiac showroom.

FYI, Your argument above isn't doing you any favors.


No, I'm all for risks, but also being somewhat fiscally responsible. Going into a casino hoping for the jackpot and blowing your life savings *Could* potentially work, but the odds are so against it, there are better ways to grow your money.

Your argument is for the ENTIRE PONTIAC lineup to be RWD.

Every car you picked is a nice product or a luxury vehicle. And I'm sorry, Pontiac has ZERO cachet with younger buyers especially compared to BMW or Infiniti. Who buys a pontiac over those? Seriously, unless you love muscle cars and had the oppotunity to enjoy them as a youth, you don't care. Does sunfire or a SSEi Bonne or a S/C Automatic GP inspire confidence in me? Not in the least, did the LS1 trans am? Yep, and GTO, everything but the exterior and price you bet. However those are niche products.

Genesis: may or may not be niche product. FULL SIZE VEHICLE.
300/Charger: FULL SIZE VEHICLE (with decreasing sales year over year since one year post introduction)
Challenger: Nice vehicle FULL SIZE starts at G8 pricing and goes up to 45k.
RX-8: FLAGSHIP NICHE VEHICLE OVER 25K. Pontiac SHOULD HAVE a Mazda6 competitor not worry about this NICHE VEHICLE.
Miata/MX-5=Solstice, ohhhh ahhhh 20k sales/year? give or take? nice NICHE VEHICLE.
BMW 1-Series=starts at 30k and goes up to 45k. LUXURY BRAND NOT MAINSTREAM.
Mustang=icon, like corvette impervious to market conditions, Sports Car.
350Z/ G35/ G37=Flagship for Nissan when Pontiac should have proper ALTIMA competitor;) G lineup is 35, old. 37 bored out MCE. LUXURY CAR starting in 30's to 40's.

None of vehicles listed are smaller than full size and if they are they are a flagship or luxury car or Mustang. So I again ask, who is going to buy a 18k base model G5 rwd with a 2.2 ecotec that gets 20/29 when you can get a 14k Cobalt/15kAstra with same engine, 23/35 mileage, better interior packaging and space? Who's going to buy a 23k G6 that gets 19/26 mileage with a 2.2 ecotec or a 28k G6 HFV6 that is RWD? Who the heck wants that when you can get a Mustang GT with options or a G8 for within one thousand?

Even better, whose going to buy a RWD Aveo based G2 Pontiac for 16k when you can get a Chevy aveo with 5-7mgp better or a Versa/Fit/Yaris with 7-9mpg better and also 4,000$ cheaper?

The argument holds no water. There isn't one. It has not worked with any mainstream brand outside of a flagship or a full size car.

If you're an enthusiast, you'll buy a muscle car/full size rwd or a premium/luxury car (G/3/CTS). There is no market for lower price than that.

Why buy a 16k G2 RWD when an LSJ S/C Cobalt, SRT4 Neon costs the same price for superior performance? OR an LS1 Trans am or an LS1/2 GTO all slightly used?

I see your point, but Pontiac needs to build profitable cars and produce products that will meet sales predictions. :yup: Whether it sounds like its coming off as a beancounter or not, if you can barely get a 21k solstice with roll up windows, how the hell are you going to get a RWD subcompact, compact, and midsize car competitively priced with all ASIAN, GM and Ford competition? You can't! If you try to align them with their fwd counterparts, you will lose hundreds of millions on the vehicles. If you sell them for a premium, who the hell wants a RWD G5 GXP for 26k when you can get buy a Mustang GT at that price? A 28k G6 HF DI when you can get a G8 GT for 3k more?

Pontiac needs to focus on its competitive set: Dodge, Mazda, Honda, and Nissan. Those are the buyers this brand does and should attract. Period. Have your halo rwd, but you don't see rwd fits/versa/altima/accord/civic/sentra/mazda3/mazda6/caliber/avenger's running around for a reason. Its bad business and you cannot sell them for the premium. Thats why S2K, RX-8, Mustang GT, G8GT, Charger Hemi are around.

CobaltSS
 

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I don't think it is possible for every Pontiac to be RWD but I do agree that GM has so many different brands that Pontiac could be much more heavily weighted to RWD. It really doesn't have anything to do with going to the dragstrip. Look at BMW for a perfect example of this. You would never think to bring a BMW to the dragstrip but you would also never want a FWD BMW. The RWD has tons of advantages built in that are not possible with FWD. You get much better steering feel, weight balance, real world handling (non skidpad) which equates to a much more involved and fun driving experience.

Sure the vast majority of non car enthusiasts wouldn't know if a car was FWD, RWD, OHC, OHV but there I think there is a large enough contingent to support plenty of performance vehicles from Pontiac. It's not like Pontiac is selling in Chevy volumes now so you don't have to replace an unrealistic number of purchases.

I think you feel the way you do because you are very young and you live in a very cold climate, both of which examples lend themselves to a lower number of positive RWD driving experiences.
 

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Im still with the idea that you dont need RWD for performance. I would like to see RWD help out the image, but a propper G6, tuned right for handling, with good engine packages, good performance, manual transmissions, tight and stylish cars, will do more for the performance image then RWD would. RWD doesnt automaticly make a car better to drive.
IMO, if they could tune Delta II and Epsilon II for Pontiac exclusivly, that would be awesome. A G6 to fight along with the Altima, Accord, Mazda 6, up to Acura TL and Audi A4, that would be a success. G8 is working out perfect, and Solstice is a great move for Pontiac.
GM needs to learn to use its powers to combat car segments. Camry and Malibu. Accord and Aura, Altima and G6, ES350 and LaX. Therefor GM can focus on making each car better in a certain area, not just one jack of all trades car. With CamCordTima, there will always be a compromise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I don't think it is possible for every Pontiac to be RWD but I do agree that GM has so many different brands that Pontiac could be much more heavily weighted to RWD. It really doesn't have anything to do with going to the dragstrip. Look at BMW for a perfect example of this. You would never think to bring a BMW to the dragstrip but you would also never want a FWD BMW. The RWD has tons of advantages built in that are not possible with FWD. You get much better steering feel, weight balance, real world handling (non skidpad) which equates to a much more involved and fun driving experience.

Sure the vast majority of non car enthusiasts wouldn't know if a car was FWD, RWD, OHC, OHV but there I think there is a large enough contingent to support plenty of performance vehicles from Pontiac. It's not like Pontiac is selling in Chevy volumes now so you don't have to replace an unrealistic number of purchases.

I think you feel the way you do because you are very young and you live in a very cold climate, both of which examples lend themselves to a lower number of positive RWD driving experiences.
So you think there is a large enough amount of people to support 'plenty' of performance vehicles from pontiac even if face of said brands? Even in addition to Cobalt SS, Camaro (all variations), Saturn XR's and RL's (Astra/Sky/Next-Gen-Aura), SAAB 9-3, Buick Super's, etc.

Pontiac couldn't sustain the Firebird/TransAm, it could barely sell GTO's from 04-06 styling not-with-standing it had the goods (V8 / RWD) and best interior in GMNA bar none. Yet it still couldn't sell well, and now we have the G8 which they will make what? 30-50k per year? Camaro is supposed to sell MAYBE 90k/year after initial launch?

We own a RWD Trans Am vert. that is driven from April-October with an LS1. I drove a Trans Am 77 exclusively from 2003-2005 during non-winter months. I've had some very enjoyable moments in both as well as a C5 vette I put a couple hundred miles on as well. I've driven CTS and CTS-V and really like it too. As a matter of fact, if I can get Mom to pay 500$/month she'll be in a CTS, but something tells me a 6speed/2.4 Ecotec Malibu will win out:(

I just don't think there are enough sales to support Pontiac in this fashion with their current or projected market demographic. Who wants a Pontiac when you could have a G37, 335i, 535i, CTS DI, IS350, IS-F, Audi S4 (fwd/awd is irrelevant), 1series, etc.

Who will buy a rwd G5 or G6 replacement when they can get similar performance from a Mazda3 or Altima, better gas mileage, and a few thousand less? Remember the 13k-30k demographic of buyers is HUGELY price sensitive. I don't see pontiac sales going barely over 200k with a RWD lineup consistantly, and thats assuming all cars meet sales targets (not likely initially).

CobaltSS
 

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A G6 to fight along with the Altima, Accord, Mazda 6, up to Acura TL and Audi A4, that would be a success. G8 is working out perfect, and Solstice is a great move for Pontiac.
Isn't that what Saturn is supposed to be doing though......??
 

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This all goes to show how far GM has to go before all of it's brands are hitting on all 8 cylinders.

Unless GM wants Pontiac to become a niche brand like SAAB or Hummer, it has to give Pontiac a good mix of desirable RWD and FWD cars that are tuned for performance.
 

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I have to agree with most, that if Pontiac were to offer FWD models that were actually sporting, and made you think "wow, this is really fun for FWD" then I don't think it would be as big of a problem as it is right now.

To be honest, all of the FWD offerings from Pontiac seem pretty tame. No one really takes the GXP guise very seriously.

I wouldn't mind seeing performance oriented FWD vehicles from Pontiac. Would I prefer RWD? Yes, but again, there are FWD vehicles out there that are nothing to be scoffed at...

-Chase
 

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Isn't that what Saturn is supposed to be doing though......??
Aura is supposed to inject European design and flair into American sedans. This means that Aura's line up is against cars like the Passat, as well as other semi luxury mid sized cars. Its design will be different, appealling to a different and smaller group of people.
Problem is that there is overlap elsewhere. There is overlap with 9-5, as well as the LaX.
Malibu will overlap the Aura in a way, but not the G6.
Its going to be tough to try to seperate the brands. IMO, what would be nice, the LaX as well as next gen Impala should ride on a longer version of Epsilon if possible. The ES is a bigger car then Camry, so it must be ready to go after that.
 

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I have to agree with most, that if Pontiac were to offer FWD models that were actually sporting, and made you think "wow, this is really fun for FWD" then I don't think it would be as big of a problem as it is right now.

To be honest, all of the FWD offerings from Pontiac seem pretty tame. No one really takes the GXP guise very seriously.

I wouldn't mind seeing performance oriented FWD vehicles from Pontiac. Would I prefer RWD? Yes, but again, there are FWD vehicles out there that are nothing to be scoffed at...

-Chase
If the next iteration of the G6 could spank the Altima SE-R......then I guess I wouldn't mind so much......they just gotta remember not to half-ass it ;)
 

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Aura is supposed to inject European design and flair into American sedans. This means that Aura's line up is against cars like the Passat, as well as other semi luxury mid sized cars. Its design will be different, appealling to a different and smaller group of people.
Problem is that there is overlap elsewhere. There is overlap with 9-5, as well as the LaX.
Malibu will overlap the Aura in a way, but not the G6.
Its going to be tough to try to seperate the brands. IMO, what would be nice, the LaX as well as next gen Impala should ride on a longer version of Epsilon if possible. The ES is a bigger car then Camry, so it must be ready to go after that.
To be honest, every car Pontiac has right now outside of the G8 makes more sense as a Saturn. Most European cars have good handling and performance characteristics, and making another Delta, Epsilon , etc. for Pontiac is a bit redundant. As is the G5 is redundant between the Cobalt and the Astra, the G6 is a bit redundant to the Malibu and Aura, and so on. It's going to be hard not making Pontiac a unique brand without offering inexpensive RWD cars as the majority of the selection.
 

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Pontiac doesn't have any direct competition outside the other GM divisions, because we are not offering competitive vehicles to match-up with other makes. When we make price .. we sacrifice equipment and powertrain...when we match powertrain we sacrifice competative pricing. Pontiac is not in competition currently and that is the sad truth of it. The Solstice is an attempt and the G8 is competing outside if it's market place. G6 is in competition with itself and the expired Grand Am loyal customer. G5 is a sorry excuse for a compact sport coupe, and let's not even bring up the quickly dying Torrent.

Let's get in the game instead of sitting in the bleacher's
 

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Generally, the more power the car has, the more difficult it is to both power and steer the vehicle though the front wheels. I would say that an OK handling G6 FWD with 260HP should be about the limit of what to ask for out of FWD.

I would still like to see Pontiac have a mid-sized RWD platform with up to around 350HP. I have no problem with small and compacts as FWD.
 

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What other rwd car lineup of a mainstream non-luxury brand is there? Oh wait, there isn't one.

CobaltSSCrazy
Yes there is.

Dodge is largerly RWD. They have 6 cars: Caliber, Avenger, Charger, Magnum, Challenger, and Viper--so 66% of them are rear-wheel drive. And if you look at light trucks, only one, the Grand Caravan, is FWD. Everything else is RWD.
 

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If Pontiac were to be creating competitive product, I would say that its competition would not be limited quite to one brand, I think it would be (or should be) picking and choosing competition from different brands. IE, saying OK, who is leading on "affordable" but extremely competitive product in certain categories?

IE:
Solstice should be up-staging the Miata (It currently is not, No automatic retractible hard or even soft top, no luggage space, materials are not up to par)

Vibe should be trying to compete with Rabbit or Mazdaspeed 3

G5 right now is pretty half-assed, it should be putting (or should have been putting) the Neon SRT 4 in its sights, or again, mazda 3, Civic Si, Acura RSX-S, lancer, impreza, etc. (and yes, it should be offering a 4-door variant, not just the coupe that it offers right now)

G6 Again, not much going on here, It should be picking on the Mazdaspeed6, like mentioned above, the Altima SE-R etc.

The G8, well, it seems like it should be pretty competitive, it is sort of in a different class now being as it has graduated to RWD, and I believe the current affordable benchmarks were the Chrylser cars. As we all pretty much know, the G8 definately surpasses that...

Torrent should not exist, however, if GM felt that Pontiac really needed an SUV-type vehicle, it probably should be done properly and be putting things like the Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 into its sights. But again, the closest thing to and SUV that Pontiac should have is the G8 wagon...

-Chase
 

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Yes there is.

Dodge is largerly RWD. They have 6 cars: Caliber, Avenger, Charger, Magnum, Challenger, and Viper--so 66% of them are rear-wheel drive. And if you look at light trucks, only one, the Grand Caravan, is FWD. Everything else is RWD.
Since when is the Avenger RWD?

2008 DODGE AVENGER SEDAN - SPECS & UPGRADES​










Select 3 Avenger Sedan models to compare:
S Standard Feature
A Available option

Expand All | Collapse All
NoneSE FWDSXT FWD L Pkg.SXT FWD M Pkg.R/T FWDR/T AWDNoneSE FWDSXT FWD L Pkg.SXT FWD M Pkg.R/T FWDR/T AWDNoneSE FWDSXT FWD L Pkg.SXT FWD M Pkg.R/T FWDR/T AWDSE FWD
None
None
Net Price: $19,280
Details

BASICS​
Suspension Type - RearIndependent Tires - Width [mm]215 EPA Vehicle ClassificationMidsize Brake Type - RearDrum Tires - Aspect Ratio65 Tires - Spare Tire TypeCompact Tires - Speed RatingT Tires - TypeP Doors - Standard4 Vehicle TypeCar Suspension Type - FrontIndependent Doors - Maximum4 Brake Type - FrontDisc TopHardTop Tires - ConstructionR SteeringRack & Pinion Tires - Wheel Diameter [in]16 Driveline ConfigurationFWD
 

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Since when is the Avenger RWD?

2008 DODGE AVENGER SEDAN - SPECS & UPGRADES​




Select 3 Avenger Sedan models to compare:
S Standard Feature
A Available option

Expand All | Collapse All
NoneSE FWDSXT FWD L Pkg.SXT FWD M Pkg.R/T FWDR/T AWDNoneSE FWDSXT FWD L Pkg.SXT FWD M Pkg.R/T FWDR/T AWDNoneSE FWDSXT FWD L Pkg.SXT FWD M Pkg.R/T FWDR/T AWDSE FWD
None
None
Net Price: $19,280
Details

BASICS​
Suspension Type - RearIndependent Tires - Width [mm]215 EPA Vehicle ClassificationMidsize Brake Type - RearDrum Tires - Aspect Ratio65 Tires - Spare Tire TypeCompact Tires - Speed RatingT Tires - TypeP Doors - Standard4 Vehicle TypeCar Suspension Type - FrontIndependent Doors - Maximum4 Brake Type - FrontDisc TopHardTop Tires - ConstructionR SteeringRack & Pinion Tires - Wheel Diameter [in]16 Driveline ConfigurationFWD
Yeah.........and?

I said they have six cars. 66% of those (well, I guess 67% with rounding) are RWD. Meaning 4 out of 6 are RWD. Meaning the Caliber and Avenger are FWD.
 

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Yeah.........and?

I said they have six cars. 66% of those (well, I guess 67% with rounding) are RWD. Meaning 4 out of 6 are RWD. Meaning the Caliber and Avenger are FWD.
That sounded clearer than the way you originally put it. Maybe it's because I just loaded 12 of the POS's into my system for customers. :fall:
 
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