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Plug-in hybrids in new emissions scandal as tests show higher pollution than claimed
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Sales of plug-in hybrid vehicles are skyrocketing in Europe, but tests on the newest models confirm they pollute the climate far more than carmakers claim – even when starting with a full battery. Three of the most popular plug-ins in 2020 all emitted more CO2 than advertised, when tested in the real world, just as research on older PHEVs has shown.[1] Transport & Environment (T&E), which commissioned the tests, said governments should end the purchase subsidies and generous tax breaks for plug-in hybrids that are fuelling another emissions scandal.

Eoin BannonNovember 23, 2020 - 07:05.

The BMW X5, Volvo XC60 and Mitsubishi Outlander emitted 28-89% more CO2 than advertised when tested by Emissions Analytics on a fully charged battery in optimal conditions. On an empty battery, they emitted three to eight times more than official values. When driven in battery-charging mode, which could become more common as motorists charge up ahead of using electric mode in low-emissions zones, the PHEVs emitted three to 12 times more.



https://www.transportenvironment.or...s-scandal-tests-show-higher-pollution-claimed
 
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I'll need someone with some knowledge to explain this to me in small words. I'm getting hung up with gasoline - one gallon of gas contains a given amount of CO2, correct? No matter how you burn it, that gallon of gas will give out the same amount of CO2. So is this article simply saying that hybrids don't have the efficiency as advertised? Meaning they say 50 mpg and you are only getting 30 mpg? I think I'm right and this is a classic example of over-complicating things. Or are they saying the efficiency of the electric motors is pretty poor?

If true, the companies that are placing their bets on hybrids as the tech of the future (Toyota) might be in trouble.

Edit: I found the below interesting on how the resulting CO2 from the combustion process weighs more than the gallon of gas.
https://epicenergyblog.com/2013/05/24/how-many-pounds-of-carbon-dioxide-co2-does-a-gallon-of-gasoline-produce/
 

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I'll need someone with some knowledge to explain this to me in small words. I'm getting hung up with gasoline - one gallon of gas contains a given amount of CO2, correct? No matter how you burn it, that gallon of gas will give out the same amount of CO2. So is this article simply saying that hybrids don't have the efficiency as advertised? Meaning they say 50 mpg and you are only getting 30 mpg? I think I'm right and this is a classic example of over-complicating things. Or are they saying the efficiency of the electric motors is pretty poor?

If true, the companies that are placing their bets on hybrids as the tech of the future (Toyota) might be in trouble.
Wait until they find out clean the electricity is(n't).........

Edit: I found the below interesting on how the resulting CO2 from the combustion process weighs more than the gallon of gas.
https://epicenergyblog.com/2013/05/24/how-many-pounds-of-carbon-dioxide-co2-does-a-gallon-of-gasoline-produce/
Two words, sorry, Four words..........

Carbon Tax, Bend Over!



A single carbon atom has a molecular weight of 12. After combustion, the vast majority of carbon atoms in a gallon of gasoline bond with two oxygen atoms, forming carbon dioxide (CO2) molecules. An oxygen atom has a molecular weight of 16. Therefore, a carbon dioxide molecule has a molecular weight of 44. So a single carbon dioxide molecule is 3.6 times heavier than a single carbon atom.

(C)12+(O)16+(O)16=44 which is 3.6 times heavier, didn't the 2 (O) already exist? :think:
 

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Wait until they find out clean the electricity is(n't).........



Two words, sorry, Four words..........

Carbon Tax, Bend Over!



A single carbon atom has a molecular weight of 12. After combustion, the vast majority of carbon atoms in a gallon of gasoline bond with two oxygen atoms, forming carbon dioxide (CO2) molecules. An oxygen atom has a molecular weight of 16. Therefore, a carbon dioxide molecule has a molecular weight of 44. So a single carbon dioxide molecule is 3.6 times heavier than a single carbon atom.

(C)12+(O)16+(O)16=44 which is 3.6 times heavier, didn't the 2 (O) already exist? :think:
Yes, but not in the form of CO2.
 

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I'll need someone with some knowledge to explain this to me in small words. I'm getting hung up with gasoline - one gallon of gas contains a given amount of CO2, correct? No matter how you burn it, that gallon of gas will give out the same amount of CO2. So is this article simply saying that hybrids don't have the efficiency as advertised? Meaning they say 50 mpg and you are only getting 30 mpg? I think I'm right and this is a classic example of over-complicating things. Or are they saying the efficiency of the electric motors is pretty poor?
I didn't read the article in detail but I think it's basically saying the efficiency in the window sticker doesn't match real world efficiency. Well, duh! That's true for pretty much any vehicle. I think it's also saying that efficiency is different when measured from a full battery vs. a discharged battery. Well, double duh!!

Regardless, it may not matter much. I think PHEVs have a limited future. Their sales in some markets (e.g., California) have been tanking even as pure EVs and regular hybrids continue to grow (see page 2 of https://www.cncda.org/wp-content/uploads/Cal-Covering-3Q-20.pdf).

If true, the companies that are placing their bets on hybrids as the tech of the future (Toyota) might be in trouble.
Plug-in hybrids seem like the worst of both worlds. Need to be able to plug in but only gets you a short distance on battery power and double the complexity (two powertrains) to get that tiny benefit. Regular hybrids, on the other hand, behave lime a normal gas car but with improved efficiency. The latter probably still has a long future ahead of it. The former, probably not.

Edit: I found the below interesting on how the resulting CO2 from the combustion process weighs more than the gallon of gas.
https://epicenergyblog.com/2013/05/24/how-many-pounds-of-carbon-dioxide-co2-does-a-gallon-of-gasoline-produce/
Right, 'cause the combustion process also used up some Oxygen.
 
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Don't forget combustion creates water.

From the Gargler, the balanced equation is: Fuel + O2 → CO2 + H2O


Right, but the majority of the weight of a lot of hydrocarbon molecules is in the carbon atoms (one carbon atom is about 12x the weight of a hydrogen atom). Then you add two oxygen atoms (each about 16x the weight of a hydrogen atom) per carbon atom to produce carbon dioxide, and that dominates the weight of the outputs.
 

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I'll need someone with some knowledge to explain this to me in small words. I'm getting hung up with gasoline - one gallon of gas contains a given amount of CO2, correct? No matter how you burn it, that gallon of gas will give out the same amount of CO2. So is this article simply saying that hybrids don't have the efficiency as advertised? Meaning they say 50 mpg and you are only getting 30 mpg? I think I'm right and this is a classic example of over-complicating things. Or are they saying the efficiency of the electric motors is pretty poor?

If true, the companies that are placing their bets on hybrids as the tech of the future (Toyota) might be in trouble.

Edit: I found the below interesting on how the resulting CO2 from the combustion process weighs more than the gallon of gas.
https://epicenergyblog.com/2013/05/24/how-many-pounds-of-carbon-dioxide-co2-does-a-gallon-of-gasoline-produce/
It's all to do with the proportion of the fixed test that's done on pure electric derived from plugging-in overnight - real world driving has a different proportion so creates more CO2
 

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I didn't read the article in detail but I think it's basically saying the efficiency in the window sticker doesn't match real world efficiency. Well, duh! That's true for pretty much any vehicle. I think it's also saying that efficiency is different when measured from a full battery vs. a discharged battery. Well, double duh!!
Yup. Same thinking here.

Regardless, it may not matter much. I think PHEVs have a limited future. Their sales in some markets (e.g., California) have been tanking even as pure EVs and regular hybrids continue to grow (see page 2 of https://www.cncda.org/wp-content/uploads/Cal-Covering-3Q-20.pdf).

Plug-in hybrids seem like the worst of both worlds. Need to be able to plug in but only gets you a short distance on battery power and double the complexity (two powertrains) to get that tiny benefit. Regular hybrids, on the other hand, behave lime a normal gas car but with improved efficiency. The latter probably still has a long future ahead of it. The former, probably not.
Plug-in hybrids may have a limited future, but they do provide the bridge from ICE to BEV. If they can get 20-30 miles, that's more than enough to troll around a city for the day. And for me, good enough to commute from where I live down to Silicon Valley to work (whenever HQ decides to reopen next July). And there are charging stations on campus. So... it would work for me, should I go Velar. (But ordering the PHEV isn't available in the US yet.)

PHEVs work best in urban areas where there's an emissions charge to enter the urban zone. (i.e. London). New York, Seattle, Portland, and San Francisco will probably enact something similar in the next 3-5 years.
 

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I see what they’re doing, the review anticipates Brits running PHEVs in charge sustain mode before they enter zero emissions zones like London.

So in that respect they are right that PHEVs create more emissions than the way manufacturers do their tests.
 
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