Omega and Alpha Platforms Thoughts

4729 Views 30 Replies 12 Participants Last post by autoplaybook, Jan 5, 2015

EJD1984

Discussion Starter · Jan 3, 2015

I have been thinking for a while. With how much development money is being poured into Cadillac, along with an apparent accelerated product time tables, could the coming Omega platform actually be an eventual replacement for the Alpha?

Not long ago Mark Reuss stated "We learned a lot from Alpha to develop Omega". In addition, the CT6 is supposed to be 8 inches longer, but 53 pounds lighter than the CTS.

Though it would be also be contingent if Omega is down-scalable to smaller size vehicles.

If this is the case, I can see the current Alpha platform eventually being "given" to Buck and Chevrolet for their own models (outside of the Camaro).

*Just thinking out loud.

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LetsRace

· #2 · Jan 3, 2015

Not imposible, but I doubt it. Alpha is still young and expensive so they need to use it in vehicles with high ATPs for the moment, Carillac fits the role nicley. Sure they can use it for the new Camaro or a Buick, but those vehicles will not be cheap, and why would they be? Alpha is a fantastic platform!

I'm sure that Omega is flexible enough to bring vehicles in different sizes, but I'm think those will be on the upper end of the scale. Why I want to know is if Omega will be able to bring new SUV/Crossovers to the Caddy lineup??? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

EJD1984

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jan 3, 2015

LetsRace said:
Not impossible, but I doubt it. Alpha is still young and expensive so they need to use it in vehicles with high ATPs for the moment, Caril lac fits the role nicely. Sure they can use it for the new Camaro or a Buick, but those vehicles will not be cheap, and why would they be? Alpha is a fantastic platform!

I was thinking more of when there is a next-gen ATS and CTS, once they move to the CT nomenclature and most likely switch to aluminum bodies.

LetsRace said:
Why I want to know is if Omega will be able to bring new SUV/Crossovers to the Caddy lineup?

If recent rumors are true, there will be an Omega based CUV slotted just under the Escalade. That is the vehicle I'm real curious about right now.

Ute

· #4 · Jan 3, 2015

EJD1984 said:
I was thinking more of when there is a next-gen ATS and CTS, once they move to the CT nomenclature and most likely switch to aluminum bodies.

Next CTS will be Omega-based, I'm sure.

If recent rumors are true, there will be an Omega based CUV slotted just under the Escalade. That is the vehicle I'm real curious about right now.

Omega SWB SUV (under Escalade) and Omega LWB SUV (above Escalade).

Omega SWB can be 5-seater and 7-seater (as Mercedes ML and GL).

Reactions: 1

dslay04

· #5 · Jan 3, 2015

I think Alpha and Omega are basically the same. Just the component packages are different. Just look at D2xx vs E2xx. I think this just easily scalable but upwards and downwards.

Cobaltss_King

· #6 · Jan 3, 2015

Yea i mentioned this in another thread that the CT2 would be on alpha and the rest of the sedan will move to omega.

Z284ever

· #7 · Jan 3, 2015

dslay04 said:
I think Alpha and Omega are basically the same. Just the component packages are different. Just look at D2xx vs E2xx. I think this just easily scalable but upwards and downwards.

That's my guess, as well. We'll know soon.

Reactions: 1

sfbreh

· #8 · Jan 3, 2015

Z284ever said:
That's my guess, as well. We'll know soon.

I kind of agree, maybe with more advanced materials and additional engineering. Part of their figuring out how to move the crossmember or whatever it was in the ATS and CTS hindering rear legroom I suspected was maybe related to their development of Omega.

dslay04

· #9 · Jan 3, 2015

sfbreh said:
I kind of agree, maybe with more advanced materials and additional engineering. Part of their figuring out how to move the crossmember or whatever it was in the ATS and CTS hindering rear legroom I suspected was maybe related to their development of Omega.

Exactly. I think Alpha will be known as a baby Omega in the next generation. Helps with the product codes.

Z284ever

· #10 · Jan 4, 2015

Also, since the CT6 and Camaro are being developed/produced concurrently, I wouldn't be surprised if they both share a lot of the same mass control techniques, beyond what was used in the Alpha ATS and CTS.

Dr.Show-Me

· #11 · Jan 4, 2015

My understanding has been that Omega is wider than alpha by a considerable amount, along with a longer wheelbase. With Omega actually based on zeta, only wider, longer, different materials, etc.
By the time you've done all that, what is left of an alpha-omega relationship, if one existed to begin with. I think it is far more likely a zeta-Omega relationship

Reactions: 1

Z284ever

· #12 · Jan 4, 2015

Dr. Show-Me said:
My understanding has been that Omega is wider than alpha by a considerable amount, along with a longer wheelbase. With Omega actually based on zeta, only wider, longer, different materials, etc.
By the time you've done all that, what is left of an alpha-omega relationship, if one existed to begin with. I think it is far more likely a zeta-Omega relationship

I've heard the internet Zeta rumors. If Omega is at all based on Zeta, consider me more than shocked.

Dr.Show-Me

· #13 · Jan 4, 2015

Z284ever said:
I've heard the internet Zeta rumors. If Omega is at all based on Zeta, consider me more than shocked.

It's speculation, but based on the assumption that zeta was a very solid platform that lacked an awd option and wasn't wide enough or long enough for a Cadillac flagship, while the Caprice version would make a very nice STS with few changes. Yet for a flagship or STS, the wider platform produces the width necessary to sit 3 adult males across the rear seat.
If you look at the large SUVs, you see that they became the replacement for the large sedans, with the width needed, with the awd called for. Yet the suvs lack the driving dynamics for a flagship.
Lastly, the Omega has to be changed considerably from zeta or the Aussies will claim GM stole the design from them, a "theft" of what GM already owns.

richmond2000

· #14 · Jan 4, 2015

^^ ZETA was "hardened" for AWD and a "future" Adventura wagon but the "future" products got the AXE when Holdens budget got the AXE^^
I was under the impression Alpha took a LOT of Zeta knowledge in there design and Omega was the "BEST" of Both Alpha and Zeta and was MORE "focused on being more HD like ZETA to better support large applications including SUV's

Dr.Show-Me

· #15 · Jan 4, 2015

richmond2000 said:
^^ ZETA was "hardened" for AWD and a "future" Adventura wagon but the "future" products got the AXE when Holdens budget got the AXE^^
I was under the impression Alpha took a LOT of Zeta knowledge in there design and Omega was the "BEST" of Both Alpha and Zeta and was MORE "focused on being more HD like ZETA to better support large applications including SUV's

Whichever way it comes out, it should benefit from corporate knowledge gained from both programs, with components being able to be swapped in to produce a light car, a strong heavier performance car or a SUV/CUV that is pretty terrific.

EJD1984

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jan 4, 2015

dslay04 said:
I think Alpha and Omega are basically the same. Just the component packages are different. Just look at D2xx vs E2xx. I think this just easily scalable but upwards and downwards.

Z284ever said:
That's my guess, as well. We'll know soon.

I'm thinking they might be similar in design, with the Omega somewhat scaled up. I seriously doubt there will be any major shared components. Though the ATS and CTS are nicely sized cars, they currently don't have the width to be stretched to a full-size car. Omega will most likely be a couple inches wider. Might not sound like much, but that can make a world of difference with interior space. While also leaving it with the ability to be downsized to smaller cars.

I actually look back at the original Chrysler K-Cars. Though initially small, they were designed very wide for their class. Giving Chrysler the ability to scale the platform up for (almost) infinite uses.

Omega could be a similar case, with the CT6 sized in the middle of it's platform size range.

Ruperts Trooper

· #17 · Jan 4, 2015

For global modularity, platforms need to have variable stretch in all 3 dimensions - length, width, and height - the latter being important to allow CUV/SUV models on the same platform as Saloon/Hatchback/Estate versions.

Hopefully, whatever's in development now will put an end to the plethora of platforms that GM currently has. Wikipedia lists 14 platforms currently in use, but they omit SCCS which the new Corsa and existing Adam use so that's 15 current platforms.

IMO 5 good modular platforms would cover the whole of GM.

autoplaybook

· #18 · Jan 4, 2015

Obviously the CT6 won't be the biggest car on the Omega platform. There will be a CT7/8/9 in the works that will function as their S-Class competitor. Given all of that, I have serious doubts that it's scalable down to the size of the ATS.

My guess is that Alpha 2 will still incorporate the ATS and CTS replacements, as well as some CUV's, and the sub-ATS, since we know that won't be FWD.

And keep in mind, we haven't even seen the Alpha 1 Camaro yet, which will be the least expensive product on that platform that we know of so far. GM's product cadences aren't great, given that the Alpha 1 Camaro will be launched at the beginning of Alpha 1's 4th season on the market. But still, I think that's another sign that Omega won't be Alpha's replacement, but a supplemental platform for Cadillac.

You need at least 2 different, flexible platforms to run the size/cost range of a modern luxury brand.

Reactions: 1

dslay04

· #19 · Jan 4, 2015

autoplaybook said:
Obviously the CT6 won't be the biggest car on the Omega platform. There will be a CT7/8/9 in the works that will function as their S-Class competitor. Given all of that, I have serious doubts that it's scalable down to the size of the ATS.

My guess is that Alpha 2 will still incorporate the ATS and CTS replacements, as well as some CUV's, and the sub-ATS, since we know that won't be FWD.

And keep in mind, we haven't even seen the Alpha 1 Camaro yet, which will be the least expensive product on that platform that we know of so far. GM's product cadences aren't great, given that the Alpha 1 Camaro will be launched at the beginning of Alpha 1's 4th season on the market. But still, I think that's another sign that Omega won't be Alpha's replacement, but a supplemental platform for Cadillac.

You need at least 2 different, flexible platforms to run the size/cost range of a modern luxury brand.

Why not? Mercedes new platform can go from the CTS class to the XLWB S class Pullman. BMW's new 35&up platform can scale from the 2 series to the 7 series and maybe even the Ghost.

It's possible to be the same product architecture and have different sub-architectures.

autoplaybook

· #20 · Jan 4, 2015

dslay04 said:
Why not? Mercedes new platform can go from the CTS class to the XLWB S class Pullman. BMW's new 35&up platform can scale from the 2 series to the 7 series and maybe even the Ghost.

It's possible to be the same product architecture and have different sub-architectures.

The BMW 2/3/4 is on a different platform than the 5-Ghost/Wraith. There just can't physically be much carryover between a small, 3,300lb car like the 2-Series and a huge 5,500lb car like the Ghost. Once you start widening an architecture like the larger cars would need, very, very little ends up being able to carry over. Suspensions can't. Crossmembers can't. Floor pans can't. And if you make the small cars wide to overcome this, they end up too heavy and expensive to make.

The CTS is on the border between where the 2 Cadillac platforms would need to meet. I could see GM adding it to Omega in the future to give that platform more volume. At the same time, I could see GM keeping it with the Alpha program to give that platform greater profit potential. At this point, because Alpha platform sales are so slow, Alpha needs the CTS to make its business case.

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