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Wow, it's funny to see Ying and Yang....even in other websites. Anyone who truly believe the answer is "yes", is simple. You can not "manipulate" the test. The test is known by all comers (the OEMS), so they all know the parameters of how the Government will test them.

One smart member over there says it best (screen name, LMdealer):
I am not here to support the Japanese but I will not wrongly accuse them either!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Wow, it's funny to see Ying and Yang....even in other websites. Anyone who truly believe the answer is "yes", is simple. You can not "manipulate" the test. The test is known by all comers (the OEMS), so they all know the parameters of how the Government will test them.

One smart member over there says it best (screen name, LMdealer):
I thought the case for mpg was weak but the case for HP was pretty strong.
 

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I don't believe this is a Japanese thing. I have no issues with either Honda, Nissan or some of the other small Japanese manufacturers. Toyota on the other hand, lies so much, I don't trust anything they say.
 

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This is an open secret in the auto industry... Japanese automakers program their engine management computers to get great results on the EPA cycle, when real world results aren't even close.
 

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I thought the case for mpg was weak but the case for HP was pretty strong.
It was shown when they changed to SAE Net esting that most foreign engine's horsepower figures dropped around 5-10HP on average, while domestic makes had their ratings mostly stay around the same or drop 2-5HP. In some cases it even increased (Z06 went from 500 to 505). But thaose tests are apples and oranges to the EPA economy test. You can't compare them at all.
 

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This is an open secret in the auto industry... Japanese automakers program their engine management computers to get great results on the EPA cycle, when real world results aren't even close.
How is it an open secret? Isn't it highly illegal? Wouldn't the domestic makes either do ir too, or expose it? Especially in a time when fuel economy is tops in buyer's concerns.
 

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How is it an open secret? Isn't it highly illegal? Wouldn't the domestic makes either do ir too, or expose it? Especially in a time when fuel economy is tops in buyer's concerns.
They're not ringers... all Toyota cars' computers are EPA-optimized. They do great in EPA test cycles, but in real world driving, they can't match it. The domestics optimize their computers for either performance or real world mileage.
 

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They're not ringers... all Toyota cars' computers are EPA-optimized. They do great in EPA test cycles, but in real world driving, they can't match it. The domestics optimize their computers for either performance or real world mileage.
Oh ok. I get what you're saying now. :doh:
 

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Another aspect of this is 'software' updating - regardless of the declared or undeclared intention.

That, btw, also applies to Emissions standards.

Toyota IMO is 'manipulating' the system every way possible - when needed on these two and some of the other noted above.

All do try to max benefit and in that sense 'manipulate' the system - it gets down to the details and results more than the concept of 'manipulation' ie how rather than why - and is it a 'legal' 'method' and 'result'.

If you add up all the imperfectly known over delivery and under delivery in the real world, my gut is that GM product ends up the most positive ie you end up with the best distribution of actual fuel economy performance versus EPA - that would be in regards to 'corrected' and 'uncorrected'.

Manipulation and 'legal' are sometimes discussed as the same 'thing' and sometimes they're not - it is a separate question - and at this point, worth investigation - on at least some.:)

There is also the 'rounding errors' present thru out the whole system.

A savy competitor that comes right up to the line and doesn't cross it is just that , a savy competitor, - who is using one kind of 'strategy' - although that will mean in the real world somebody may have a better under promise and over deliver performance or really, 'ratio'.

Regardless, there are factors in all this outside of OEM control that effect the result.

We are also now beginning to see even in the regular gassers when looked at by themselves ie w/o diesels, hybrids etc - that they now decay or surge ahead in a wider range of numbers - both individually and as a group.
 

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If thats the case then the big three should be doing the same thing.
So you'd rather have a car that did good in a government test once, rather than being programmed for more real-life driving?
 

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