GM Inside News Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Recently emailed GM about why they keep the Corvette the #1 performer, even if a Cadillac cost nearly double...heres what the mails said.

me--I just have some questions of some Gm policies. Why does GM keep the Corvette the top performing car in Gm's line up. It seems logical to me that if your paying more for a car, say a Cadillac, then shouldn't it perform better or have more power. I would personally like to see a XLR-V that would compete with the SL55/600. Which would have it outpowering the Corvette. Obviouslly it would be over the 100 thousand dollar range, but I think it would be a good statment for the already reviving image of Cadillac. Also, why are GM's performance engines making all of their peak torque at or above 4000 RPM? I can understand that it allows for better combustion, but it often leaves the car with a lack of real punch off the line. the LS1 for example, which I have driven, just seems to lack nice off the line power that is so characteristic or the earlier engines.
Thanks for your response

the respons was almost advertisment like, telling me to look at the CTSV and the Sixteen (to long to post but will if requested). I responded
comparing them to MB and Dodge with the SL600 and Viper, and made good arguments...long again but will post if requested...they responded with..

"Thank you for contacting Cadillac and your interest in a powerful luxury vehicle. The Cadillac brand is known more for its luxury vehicles and not so much for sports vehicles. Please keep in contact with your local Cadillac dealer or us for future or new information on upcoming Cadillac vehicles.

Once again, thank you for your interest in the Cadillac brand of vehicles. If you have any further questions please contact us at our Cadillac Marketing Support Center at 1-800-333-4223. Customer Relationship Managers are available from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m. EST, seven days a week."

I responded saying if thats true why is the CTSV being produced...Havn't goten a respons back yet. Interesting though that they say that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Got a reply pretty promptly actually, they said...

"The Cadillac CTS-V is being produced as a departure from the traditional Cadillac philosophy, which places comfort and safety ahead of performance. The CTS-V might signal a new direction that Cadillac is exploring with our future vehicles, mixing luxury and high performance, but the focus of Cadillac will remain to be on luxury with high performance being more of a secondary concern."

Interesting, so does this mean that the V series is going to be a fluke?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
146 Posts
No.

'06 STSv and '06 XLRv with a supercharged Northstar, and the '08 Escalade with the V12 are proof that performance models are not a fluke.

Remember that Cadillac is the luxury brand, and will remain that.

Chevrolet and Pontiac have the performance orientation. Chevrolet does have product in the development lineup that is very likely to meet your performance ideals in other than a 2 door-2 seat car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
But I'm not wanting one from Chevrolet, they have the Vette. What I'm wanting is for GM to get over the Vette being their ultimate performer. I just would like the so the XLRV which I assume will be over 100K out power the Corvette. ITS DOUBLE THE PRICE, why shouldn't it out power a chevy car. I site the SL600 and the Viper, same company sells both cars, one is marketed for the upper class luxery cruiser, one is a performance car and thats it. Yet the Sl600 outpowers the Viper, why because A, its a different market, and B, because its nearly $130,000. So why can't Gm do this, instead of making a XLRV that has 5 less horespower than the C6 version of the Z06 just because they don't want it to outpower the Corvette. I'm sorry but if I paid what I assume would be around 120K for an XLR V series no doubt, I would not want to loose a race to some 1/2 price Corvette just because GM decided thats the way they like it. I personally think its retarded for GM to keep this rule.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
367 Posts
Originally posted by Nocturn_Bird@Oct 23 2003, 12:12 AM
But I'm not wanting one from Chevrolet, they have the Vette. What I'm wanting is for GM to get over the Vette being their ultimate performer. I just would like the so the XLRV which I assume will be over 100K out power the Corvette. ITS DOUBLE THE PRICE, why shouldn't it out power a chevy car. I site the SL600 and the Viper, same company sells both cars, one is marketed for the upper class luxery cruiser, one is a performance car and thats it. Yet the Sl600 outpowers the Viper, why because A, its a different market, and B, because its nearly $130,000. So why can't Gm do this, instead of making a XLRV that has 5 less horespower than the C6 version of the Z06 just because they don't want it to outpower the Corvette. I'm sorry but if I paid what I assume would be around 120K for an XLR V series no doubt, I would not want to loose a race to some 1/2 price Corvette just because GM decided thats the way they like it. I personally think its retarded for GM to keep this rule.
That will only happen with time. As the verage Cadillac buyer gets younger, then maybe a Cadillac will out power the most powerful Vette. For now that is highly unlikely as the market for Cadillac is older than the market for the Vette, and since younger buyers are more interested in performance than older buyers, it makes sense. Besides Corvette has always been GM's performance icon, while Cadillac has been the Lux icon. I don't see why it a problem having a Corvette outpower the entire GM fleet, what is a problem however is haveng a rule that says nothing can outpower the Vette. If another division can build a financially viable vehicle that can outpower the Vette then by gully let them do so. In Cadillac's case, at this time I don't think that such a car would be financially viable.

And by the way an SL600 does not out power the Viper. It has more torque that the viper but less horse power and does 0-60 in 4.7 sec compared to viper's 3.9 sec, that is huge. So no, the most expensive car in the fleet does not necessarily have to be the fastest. There are other considerations.
:type:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
yes yes, I know it does have 90 more TQ and what...9 les HP? Anyways yes it is slower but :eek: it has numbers higher than the viper. If that were Gm the car would be banished from everyones memory and never be allowed to be talked about. But thats just my point, the Sl won't beat the viper but has some numbers that are better. The Sl weighs alot more and won't handle as well, but has more torque..but it cost 50K more so who cares. Why won't GM do this, if the supposed XLRV was 50K more why not let it put out some numbers that might beat the vette. I'm just really tired of only having 400 HP just because it can't outpower the Vette looks better. The CTSV wouldn't out perform a vette if it had 425 HP, so why not let it. I just think its really dumb to not let anything put out more power then the Vette, especially if it cost a good deal more, wouldn't you be paying for the extra power? Not sure if I said it before, but I imagine a XLRV owner would get pretty mad being blown out of the water by a car 1/2 the price of it and made by a common mans car company so to speak.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,551 Posts
Originally posted by Nocturn_Bird@Oct 23 2003, 11:37 PM
yes yes, I know it does have 90 more TQ and what...9 les HP? Anyways yes it is slower but :eek: it has numbers higher than the viper. If that were Gm the car would be banished from everyones memory and never be allowed to be talked about. But thats just my point, the Sl won't beat the viper but has some numbers that are better. The Sl weighs alot more and won't handle as well, but has more torque..but it cost 50K more so who cares. Why won't GM do this, if the supposed XLRV was 50K more why not let it put out some numbers that might beat the vette. I'm just really tired of only having 400 HP just because it can't outpower the Vette looks better. The CTSV wouldn't out perform a vette if it had 425 HP, so why not let it. I just think its really dumb to not let anything put out more power then the Vette, especially if it cost a good deal more, wouldn't you be paying for the extra power? Not sure if I said it before, but I imagine a XLRV owner would get pretty mad being blown out of the water by a car 1/2 the price of it and made by a common mans car company so to speak.
You are tired of 400HP? :blink:

WOW

BTW, what if Cadillac won't built a XLR-V? Remember that they said that the XLR is just where they want it (MT) ... but is just speculation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
having cadillac outpower chevy doesn't necessarily mean that the cadillac will be faster. a maybach is a billion tons, and has more horsepower/torque than and AMG 55, but the AMG is faster. fact is, the 'vette is a sports car. it SHOULD be fasted of the two. the cadillac brand is a LUXURY brand. and although that means cadillacs are pricier, that doesn't mean that they should be faster than the 'vette.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
954 Posts
Originally posted by mackingu@Oct 23 2003, 06:44 PM
the cadillac brand is a LUXURY brand. and although that means cadillacs are pricier, that doesn't mean that they should be faster than the 'vette.
nor does it mean they should be more powerful.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
75 Posts
Originally posted by mackingu@Oct 24 2003, 01:44 AM
having cadillac outpower chevy doesn't necessarily mean that the cadillac will be faster. a maybach is a billion tons, and has more horsepower/torque than and AMG 55, but the AMG is faster. fact is, the 'vette is a sports car. it SHOULD be fasted of the two. the cadillac brand is a LUXURY brand. and although that means cadillacs are pricier, that doesn't mean that they should be faster than the 'vette.
Actually, no, the S600 is the quickest of the Benzes, same engine as the Maybach, but they took off 50HP in software. Low 12s stock, high 11s with a software reflash.

The S55/CL55/SL55/E55 are quick, the S55 being the quickest of them in a straight line because they're traction-limited anyway and the big sedans have more weight on the rear wheels. Once again, the E55 engine is the same but they took off 30HP in software so that the guys who are willing to pop six figures can still claim bragging rights.

By the way, Mercedes has decided the mechanical blowers are not the way to go on future AMG models, they're pursuing some very large displacement normally-aspirated engines. Meanwhile, they're also going very much the opposite direction with the new CL65, pumping the twin-turbo V12 up to 600HP and 700 lb/ft.

AMG is just badge-engineering at this point, the work is done by DB engineers and the cars are done in DB plants. The serious Benz house-tuner these days is Brabus.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
419 Posts
Merecedes is still a luxury brand that happens to a make serious performance model of each of its cars for the minority of its buyers that are willing to pay the premium for it. Much like the email from GM states about Cadillac, the focus of MB has to be seen as luxury and safety. Although, it must be said that every MB car has a hint of sport to it, much like a plain old non-sport package automatic CTS. Luxury, safety and style are at the top of the list, but performance moved way up at Cadillac in comparison to five or six years ago.

Not that long a car like the XLR would have been unimaginable, and a Caddy with a 400 hp 'Vette engine would have been a laugable thought. I think that Cadillac has made tremendous progress in the past few years, and it looks like that trend will continue.

On a side note, I have never understood why the Corvette has always had to be the "most powerful" car from GM. It seems to me that GM has always shot themselves in the foot with policies like that. GM sells every Corvette they build, would an XLR with more power but lesser performance at twice the price change that? NO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Im tired of 400 Hp when GM could easily give us 425 and effect maybe very little of the car's performance, 20 HP isn't that much, but they don't why becuase they can't have anything outpower their precious little vette, and frankly IM tired of it. I think the XLR has good power for its market, but I can see in a couple years an XLRV going to compete with teh SL600 and likes of that that can only get 495 HP because the C6 will only have 500. Which I think is retarded, by then the SL is most likely going to have some more power, which will make the XLRV loose against the SL and other cars just because GM is holding it back because of the Vette. LET CADDIE LOOSE on those weak germans and show them what american luxery performance is all about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
146 Posts
Originally posted by Nocturn_Bird@Oct 24 2003, 01:54 AM
Im tired of 400 Hp when GM could easily give us 425 and effect maybe very little of the car's performance, 20 HP isn't that much, but they don't why becuase they can't have anything outpower their precious little vette, and frankly IM tired of it. I think the XLR has good power for its market, but I can see in a couple years an XLRV going to compete with teh SL600 and likes of that that can only get 495 HP because the C6 will only have 500. Which I think is retarded, by then the SL is most likely going to have some more power, which will make the XLRV loose against the SL and other cars just because GM is holding it back because of the Vette. LET CADDIE LOOSE on those weak germans and show them what american luxery performance is all about.
You toss around horsepower numbers like you can change it like you order different paint on a car. It would be great if it were that easy to wave a wand over an engine and have it make XXXhp.

The XLR is not engineered, designed or intended to have the LS2/LS7 Gen IV small blocks. It will continue to have the Northstar family of engines at various power outputs.

And when you recognize and understand that all the V8 engines will be replaced between the '05 and '08 model years, there is great opportunity for the higher horsepower numbers.

Yes, you can make more horsepower out of the current engines. You can't meet the current and future emissions requirements, durability, NVH, and the quoted numbers you demand can't all fit inside the envelope.

There is a supercharged Northstar that should be over 405HP for the '06 MY.

Keep your shorts on, and when you can afford to buy a $100k vehicle from Caddy, then start making demands. The volume at that level is so small, that the true effect is not from the people that drive them, but from the magazine tests that people can fight over on the internet.

There are 500+hp engines under development, that will not fit into the Vette, and will make more power than the Vette. There is no rule. Just no 3000lb car with 400hp in the GM lineup to compete with it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
367 Posts
Originally posted by Nocturn_Bird@Oct 24 2003, 05:54 AM
Im tired of 400 Hp when GM could easily give us 425 and effect maybe very little of the car's performance, 20 HP isn't that much, but they don't why becuase they can't have anything outpower their precious little vette, and frankly IM tired of it.  I think the XLR has good power for its market, but I can see in a couple years an XLRV going to compete with teh SL600 and likes of that that can only get 495 HP because the C6 will only have 500. Which I think is retarded, by then the SL is most likely going to have some more power, which will make the XLRV loose against the SL and other cars just because GM is holding it back because of the Vette. LET CADDIE LOOSE on those weak germans and show them what american luxery performance is all about.
I doubt that the horsepower in the XLR has anything to do with the Corvette. It has more power than its competition, I think that is enough. The Corvette is in a different segment therefore should not even be an issue. What you need to understand is that like Daimler Chrysler, GM has multiple divisions if you include the different divisions for DC you will see that these divisions compete in different segments, so to expect a Cadillac model to be the most powerful vehicle in the fleet is a bit unreasonable. Cadillac already has the most luxurious models which ,compete very well in their segment because buyers in this segment expect luxury and refinement more so than raw power. I think that the power in the Cadillacs will increase as they move upmarket, however, the Corvette's power will also increase as the competition in its segment stiffens up. GM needs to compete on a per segment basis, they can't just create Cadillac models with gazillion horsepower, without regard for their market place. I am sure that when the XLR-v comes out it will compete against the SL55 just like the CTS-v competes agains the M5. No need to worry, Cadillacs will get the power they need, and will be competetive but I don't think they need to outpower the Corvette to do it. :afro:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
case-in-point:

it shouldn't matter if any car in GM's lineup makes more horsepower than the 'vette, just as long as the 'vette is the best in performance. let cadillac boast higher horsepower figures, just as long as it doesn't change the fact that the 'vette is the best performer out of all of GM's vehicles.

now, you say you want cadillac to bring their performance to a level that destroys the competition, but you can't have that because it would rival the 'vette? here's your solution: up the 'vette too. it's a win-win situation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Exactly, GM won't. Their C6 Z06 is estimated to be at 500 HP right? So if the XLRV's supposed competition has HP in the 550's I'm betting that the XLRV is going to get stuck with 495 and be rated last in terms of performance in its category just because GM won't let it outpower the vette. I'm not saying that the XLR should out perform the vette or that it would, since I imagine it would be a good deal heavier and more luxerious, so what is the problem with making it have more power. Yes it is easy to say that they can give more power out of engine, because it is. It doesn't take to much work to squeez out 20 more horespower out of the LS6, and I imagine just some better flowing exhaust or intake manifolds would work as well with a northstar. I'm betting 1000 to 1 that the supposed supercharged NS XLRV will not out power the C6/Z06. So lets just hope the the XLRV's competiton doesn't decide to increase their horespower dramatically because the XLRV isn't going to be able to compete simply because of the vette.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43,964 Posts
Originally posted by mackingu@Oct 24 2003, 07:21 PM
case-in-point:

it shouldn't matter if any car in GM's lineup makes more horsepower than the 'vette, just as long as the 'vette is the best in performance. let cadillac boast higher horsepower figures, just as long as it doesn't change the fact that the 'vette is the best performer out of all of GM's vehicles.

now, you say you want cadillac to bring their performance to a level that destroys the competition, but you can't have that because it would rival the 'vette? here's your solution: up the 'vette too. it's a win-win situation.
Exactly the point.

Up the Vette's performance, so Cadillac can raise their performance bar as well. But what happens when cars like the M3 or the S4 or RS6 outperform the Vette?? Keep upping the Vette's performance???

Maybe. :blink:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I doubt Gm is willing to up the performance just to let Cadillac perform better, so its going to result in Cadillac getting out performed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
396 Posts
up the performance of EVERY car. just a pipedream i guess.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Actually and unfortunately, I think at some point the government is going to get into the HP mix. I t will probably take a few dozen novice drivers to do it. (get munched).. Then uncle sam might be like some of the racing regulators and limit horsepower. (I wouldnt be surprised). They used emissions to kill it last time.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top