[johnls_39]

Well, it is nothing to get excited about. The Bentley and Rolls Royce buyer is more wealthier and affluent than Mercedes Benz owner.

There are some buyers that own Cadillac just as wealthy or more so than the average Mercedes owner. It just comes down to what automaker have more vehicle that costs over $100,000+ which Mercedes does have several including some AMGs mixed in there.

The only vehicle Cadillac has close to $100,000 is the Escalade Platinum. In a year, the CTS-V and CT6 will be add in more luxury homes and will be close to 100K or more depending on options and collections (mostly Premium and Platinum).

 

[ricktherealtor]

Cadillac has been a marketing arm of GM since the '30s or '40s and its sole purpose has been to increase profit over their lesser brands. They have not been engineered to be durable cars that were sold as taxis in Germany and luxury cars in the US. When GM tries to offer similar appointments or performance of MB the first thing they do is take the part and try to engineer cost out of it, which always cheapens the part and causes warranty claims and long term durability issues. GM always moves the cost to the buyer down the road. You can go to the '50s and see mechanical fuel injection issues, or probs with Corvair, or probs with nikasil in the aluminum engine blocks for the vega, or whatever part and era you want to name. That's not to say mb didn't have probs and they did have probs in the mid '90s when they tried to meet Lexus dollar for dollar and part for part.
When most manufacturers introduce a new technology they try to make it durable, GM tries to take cost out before its proven, but they still charge "early adopter" prices. Until GM puts better water pumps on, or radiators without plastic tanks, or better wheelbearings, or better a/c compressors they etc. etc. etc. they wll never be a World Class manufacturer.

Well said. That's it exactly. I was adding washer fluid to my DTS this afternoon, and also to my daughters Cobalt. Noticed it was the very same container in both cars. Kind of wondered just how many parts are shared that you don't see, and you wonder why the Caddy is three times the price. Sure, it has extra features. But, as mentioned above, my wheel bearings failed too; equally cheap parts. Not meant to be more durable. How much would it cost to build a car that went 250K miles without repairs?

 

[Sox]

Well said. That's it exactly. I was adding washer fluid to my DTS this afternoon, and also to my daughters Cobalt. Noticed it was the very same container in both cars. Kind of wondered just how many parts are shared that you don't see, and you wonder why the Caddy is three times the price. Sure, it has extra features. But, as mentioned above, my wheel bearings failed too; equally cheap parts. Not meant to be more durable. How much would it cost to build a car that went 250K miles without repairs?

Ask Mercedes, BMW or Lexus.

 

[Sox]

Well said. That's it exactly. I was adding washer fluid to my DTS this afternoon, and also to my daughters Cobalt. Noticed it was the very same container in both cars. Kind of wondered just how many parts are shared that you don't see, and you wonder why the Caddy is three times the price. Sure, it has extra features. But, as mentioned above, my wheel bearings failed too; equally cheap parts. Not meant to be more durable. How much would it cost to build a car that went 250K miles without repairs?

OTOH your Caddy doesn't shut off the engine in corners, leave the road, disable the airbags and kill you.

 

[63GrandSport001]

I think reading the comments on this thread is funny, I read some then I actually read the article.....

It is an interesting article with a head line that makes no sense at all after you read the article. The According to the article the Mercedes buyers on average come from households with the highest assets. Based on the head line you would assume that last would be Cadillac.... and you would be wrong. Last place is Infiniti, so Cadillac is somewhere between the high point and the low point yet the article doesn't point out where Cadillac falls on the list.

Also some very interesting things in the article (now I want to read the study for myself).

Audi is the number one selling luxury brand in China (not Mercedes) according to this study. Also according to this article the newly rich seem to find BMWs popular. The article states that they talked to some 800 owners of luxury automobiles in 10 different cities. Also according to this article Mercedes buyers on average have 1,838,818 in assets and Infiniti in last place has 1,047,963. Which means that the difference between first and last isn't as big as the head line might suggest. Also while Cadillac isn't as high as Mercedes (and no one is as high as Mercedes) it isn't the disaster that some try to make it out to be.

edit: looking at different articles about this study paint a much more positive image of Cadillac, that their owners are viewed as being mature and successful.... BMW drivers are viewed as being ****s in china it seems.......

 

[F14CRAZY]

Well said. That's it exactly. I was adding washer fluid to my DTS this afternoon, and also to my daughters Cobalt. Noticed it was the very same container in both cars. Kind of wondered just how many parts are shared that you don't see, and you wonder why the Caddy is three times the price. Sure, it has extra features. But, as mentioned above, my wheel bearings failed too; equally cheap parts. Not meant to be more durable. How much would it cost to build a car that went 250K miles without repairs?

A '90s Toyota comes to mind...but the GM parts bin is massive...things like the Delco 10SI alternator came out in 1969 and was used through the '90s on virtually everything from Vega's to '76 Eldorado's to 1 ton trucks. Same with their starter, I forgot the model of it. Door lock actuators were the same from '77-'03. Ignition switches, steering columns...the list goes on regarding parts that were used for so long on virtually all models.

 

[mgescuro]

Being American is a detriment if your trying to sell to people who want to buy a German sedan. It's an asset if you want to build an American luxury car and differentiate yourself on the market. (other then the fact that Lincoln and Cadillac pretty much destroyed that concept of real American Luxury) But going upmarket and being a German wanna be will just looks like it'll be a colossal disaster. We could end up with GM believing their ELR is a Model S on a larger scale or more great product like the ATS that still isn't moving well.

Being American is a detriment if you're making a luxury product. VERY few American luxury brands have been successful. Cadillac cannot be successful until it defines what it means for it to be an American luxury brand. And by that definition, it needs to be comparable with worldwide standards of luxury.

Lincoln is a has been brand an no longer worth of being defined as a "luxury brand."

Cadillac moving upmarket will only be a disaster if Cadillac doesn't define itself as a luxury brand again.

People here are afraid of Cadillac moving upscale for a number of reasons:
1) They believe Cadillac's success is tied to sales volume alone
2) They can no longer afford a Cadillac of their choosing
3) Because they are priced out of the market, they believe that everyone else will be
4) They are NOT a luxury customer, nor do they live or want to live or understand the luxury lifestyle.

I get why the strategy is tempting because it yearns to make them legit but I don't think they're gonna make it or the market is going to respond well unless the come up with some compelling reason to buy a Caddy over a MB for the same money. Even if they are equivalent. Just my opinion.

Cadillac has no business existing if they are not a legitimate luxury brand. That's the fundamental problem here.
GM for half a century managed to so royally **** up the Cadillac brand, that it is no longer a brand of destination and excellence. Cadillac is not viewed as a luxury brand anymore. And no amount of whining and arguing points will ever change that.


I am glad that Ellinghaus and De Nysschen are in charge at Cadillac. They finally understand what it means for Cadillac to be a luxury brand, not just simply sell "high-end cars." And I'd argue that they were barely high-end in the first place.
I can't wait to see the fruits of their labor.

And if that means I'll be paying $60,000 for a mid-range CTS down the road, so be it. I'll know in my head and heart that Cadillac is finally a worth luxury brand.

 

[VS Ute 5Litre]

Don't make a mess in your pants now

You know that 6 wheeler is Australian in spirit conceived as a vehicle for the Australian Army

 

[richmond2000]

Being American is a detriment if you're making a luxury product. VERY few American luxury brands have been successful. Cadillac cannot be successful until it defines what it means for it to be an American luxury brand. And by that definition, it needs to be comparable with worldwide standards of luxury.

Lincoln is a has been brand an no longer worth of being defined as a "luxury brand."

Cadillac moving upmarket will only be a disaster if Cadillac doesn't define itself as a luxury brand again.

People here are afraid of Cadillac moving upscale for a number of reasons:
1) They believe Cadillac's success is tied to sales volume alone
2) They can no longer afford a Cadillac of their choosing
3) Because they are priced out of the market, they believe that everyone else will be
4) They are NOT a luxury customer, nor do they live or want to live or understand the luxury lifestyle.




Cadillac has no business existing if they are not a legitimate luxury brand. That's the fundamental problem here.
GM for half a century managed to so royally **** up the Cadillac brand, that it is no longer a brand of destination and excellence. Cadillac is not viewed as a luxury brand anymore. And no amount of whining and arguing points will ever change that.


I am glad that Ellinghaus and De Nysschen are in charge at Cadillac. They finally understand what it means for Cadillac to be a luxury brand, not just simply sell "high-end cars." And I'd argue that they were barely high-end in the first place.
I can't wait to see the fruits of their labor.

And if that means I'll be paying $60,000 for a mid-range CTS down the road, so be it. I'll know in my head and heart that Cadillac is finally a worth luxury brand.

I disagree on being AMERICAN is a detriment and also do NOT BELIEVE BEING GERMAN HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH MB/BMW/AUDI'S success but offering a BETTER product then there competition
the Japanese which IMHO have LESS of a luxury history then the USA have had NO issues with LEXUS but failed with Acura

CADDY in the 50-60-70's offered what I would consider a LUXARY car in only surpassed by rolls they where BIG beautiful and POWERFUL which is what the MARKET wanted in there LUX cars
BUT like usual GM failed to PROPERLY prepare for the upcoming NEW trend and 1/2 AR*E the effort while Pushing the OLD and WAS successful models

and for this thread's topic I will say the Chinese mechanic we have at work likes caddies a LOT and there is a lot of respect for them BUT the BIG BOLD ones and less so for the "NEW" ones and he says BMW/MB are VERY "corporate" CEO cars NO "flair" BUT the "right" image for a CEO or a budding middle manager (smaller model)

 

[DuallyMan]

I have to disagree with one poster about Lexus. My parents' RX 300 is running strong at 250,000 plus miles so is their '94 Landcruiser. Both vehicles were bought used.

 

[BlackGTP]

Well yes and no. I mean if someone wants to write an article about the average income of Cadillac drivers that have two cats, eat sushi at least once a month, and have never been to Seattle, then so be it! It is up to the reader to decide if that information is useful or not.

What I get from this information is that on average, Mercedes customers have more disposable income available than Cadillac customers. If Mercedes introduces a new 200,000 dollar model tomorrow, more of their current customers would be able to afford it than Cadillac customers. For me that's actually useful to know.

Agreed when it's an article of only Cadillac, but when comparing to other luxury makes that have many more high end product (and not pointing out that major difference to the reader) then the comparative stats are very misleading and the writer is drawing the reader to an incorrect decision**.

But to your point about merc owners in general having more $$ to spend on other high end product is correct, but are they the same customer buying the C and E Class? Cadillac might just not have those super rich customers for the simple reason that Cadillac doesn't offer anything in the super high end.

** though in many cases it seems like the intention of the writer is to lead the reader to an incorrect decision - that Cadillac is a failure (sells more ad space that way).

 

[Smaart Aas Saabr]

A '90s Toyota comes to mind...but the GM parts bin is massive...things like the Delco 10SI alternator came out in 1969 and was used through the '90s on virtually everything from Vega's to '76 Eldorado's to 1 ton trucks. Same with their starter, I forgot the model of it. Door lock actuators were the same from '77-'03. Ignition switches, steering columns...the list goes on regarding parts that were used for so long on virtually all models.

Oh yeah, but Mercedes has a lot of random parts-sharing too... I bet the turn signal/wiper stalk and cruise stalk thing didn't change between the 70's and like 2005

 

[Neanderthal]

Maybe the MB crowd and MB Watchers here can inform me.

I had a colleague in the 1990s who talked a lot. Because our boss was also an idiot, they hired her w/o a background which would've revealed that she had sued three or four previous employers. DUH.

Mostly she talked about her freakin MERCEDES. Did I mention I have a MERCEDES? Oh, I love my MERCEDES so much!! Last night I went downtown in my MERCEDES!...

That and her wonderful side business and I forget what else was just so peachy and better than anything anyone else on staff had. Well, you get the pitcher.

So, are all MB drivers like that? I don't hang out with unbelievably wealthy people, so hlep me out here!!

Oh, did I mention it was a 190? I rode in it a couple of times. Pretty unimpressive. :fall:

 

[Ed753]

I'm one of those buyers cadillac doesn't want anymore. We have an excellent net worth because of real estate but don't make a lot of money. I have bought or leased 5 Caddys in 10 years. Mainly because I can lease a $40k caddy for $329 while the equivalent mb is $459-499mo. I consider the mb more prestigious but the caddy is the sportier drive and cheaper to own.

Cadillac doesn't want your business anymore.

That's interesting... I live in a suburb of a city but on my street there are about 3 Mercedes owning families, many Toyotas, Hyundais of course, one guy with an 80's Brougham lowrider and one guy who traded an Elantra for a black ATS...

Funny, we've got two guys on here that have ATS's, both had Malibu's.

 

[BlackGTP]

Cadillac doesn't want your business anymore.




Funny, we've got two guys on here that have ATS's, both had Malibu's.

And I spent thanksgiving in a soup kitchen and got the money to buy the ATS by collecting cans.

Where do you think most A4, C Class and 3 Series sales coming from? People trading in their S Classes? And as I stated numerous times there are several people like myself that we're "pent up demand" for American luxury. I refuse to buy foreign makes and until the ATS the domestic luxury makes offered nothing of interest, so I drove a Malibu.

 

[Jesda]

Oh yeah, but Mercedes has a lot of random parts-sharing too... I bet the turn signal/wiper stalk and cruise stalk thing didn't change between the 70's and like 2005

It spilled over into my Chrysler Crossfire too along with that poorly placed cruise control stalk that seemed to come right out of 1979.

 

[63GrandSport001]

I don't think that it comes down to "they don't want your business" as much as it comes down to that people who have been able to afford Cadillacs in the past and purchased them won't be able to do so in the future. When you could get a CTS for in the $30,000 range for those shoppers it made sense (3 series, A4, and C class were too small for them). They are likely to migrate to something like the Chrysler 300 (or into a bigger more well optioned cars from non luxury brands). They will just not buy an ATS no matter what because it is too small (its the exact reason why they don't buy 3 series, A4, or C class). Cadillac had a high number of those people shoppers in their camp. While those in my area who end up leasing the 3 series, A4, and C class are those who want to appear successful in life (though obviously are not).

Honestly after sitting in the ATS coupe if I was buying it would be my choice over the BMW 4 series, Audi A5, and C class coupe (a 2.0T 6 speed manual). Though I am much more of a product person (don't care if people think that I am successful or not).

 

[Jesda]

They will just not buy an ATS no matter what because it is too small (its the exact reason why they don't buy 3 series, A4, or C class). Cadillac had a high number of those people shoppers in their camp. While those in my area who end up leasing the 3 series, A4, and C class are those who want to appear successful in life (though obviously are not).

Indeed.

It's easy to forget that Cadillac initiated a successful downsizing in 2003 with the Sigma CTS. Before that, the smallest Cadillac that sold well was the Seville (50k units/yr) which was priced and sized similarly to the Q45, LS400, and Continental.

 

[eaton53]

So, are all MB drivers like that?

I drive the Eclipse to work. Most people where I work don't even know I own one.
Most people drive "regular" cars and trucks, so those are the subjects of most of the car talk.

 

[Mr. Burns]

I disagree on being AMERICAN is a detriment and also do NOT BELIEVE BEING GERMAN HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH MB/BMW/AUDI'S success but offering a BETTER product then there competition
the Japanese which IMHO have LESS of a luxury history then the USA have had NO issues with LEXUS but failed with Acura

CADDY in the 50-60-70's offered what I would consider a LUXARY car in only surpassed by rolls they where BIG beautiful and POWERFUL which is what the MARKET wanted in there LUX cars
BUT like usual GM failed to PROPERLY prepare for the upcoming NEW trend and 1/2 AR*E the effort while Pushing the OLD and WAS successful models

and for this thread's topic I will say the Chinese mechanic we have at work likes caddies a LOT and there is a lot of respect for them BUT the BIG BOLD ones and less so for the "NEW" ones and he says BMW/MB are VERY "corporate" CEO cars NO "flair" BUT the "right" image for a CEO or a budding middle manager (smaller model)

Disagree.

Being German is certainly an advantage for MB/BMW/Audi, mainly due to the German heritage/image for building premium cars. Not to mention the image of superior engineering and bespoke technology.

On the flip side the Germans rarely offer better product than the competition. Maybe better reviewed in the first year after launch, but overtime it becomes clear that the cars are not "better than the competition". This applies to Mercedes more than anyone, since almost every MB vehicle launched before 2012 is absolutely an inferior product compared to its competition. This includes the W204 C-class, the W212 E-class, the W221 S-class, the GLK class, and the W164 and earlier M-class. None of these are outstanding cars by any stretch of the definition. Overrated yes. But that harks back to the image, brand, and indeed the perception of German cars.

Cadillac is in the opposite boat. Granted before the ATS, I don't believe any Cadillac has been worthy of a premium badge, but even if Cadillac were to build world beating luxury cars, counteracting the negative image associated with American cars (poorly built, poorly engineered, cheap) would be a constant battle. As mgescuro says, there is no clear definition of what a premium American car is - a definition that people outside of America (and those who aspire to be like them) would find appealing as well.

The Japanese had no history of luxury cars but they still had an image for building well engineered and precisely made cars. This alone is enough to help springboard a luxury brand, but lacking the heritage image leaves them chasing the Germans.