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Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in First

By TOM KRISHER, AP Auto Writer


JOLIET, Ill. - The race between General Motors Corp. and Japanese rival Toyota Motor Corp. to produce a rechargeable car is meaningless because the companies' vehicle designs are so different, GM's top product executive said Thursday.
Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said Toyota's plug-in hybrid has a much shorter electric range than the Chevrolet Volt and must use a gasoline engine to go any farther. The Volt, he said, runs only on electricity but carries a small gasoline engine to recharge the batteries when they are depleted.

Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe said Thursday that Toyota will speed up delivery of its plug-in hybrid from 2010 to the end of 2009, while the Volt is due in showrooms in late 2010.

But Lutz said he expects Toyota's plug-in will debut in controlled fleets and not in large numbers. He said GM will have production versions of the Volt working in a large test fleet in late 2009.

Lutz, speaking at an event in Joliet where GM showed reporters its 2009 model lineup, said the Volt's lithium-ion batteries can take it 40 to 50 miles on a single charge. If a driver stays within that range, the car would never use gasoline. To go farther, the motor would come on to recharge the batteries.

Toyota has not released an electric-only range for its plug-in hybrid, which operates similar to its current Prius model by using both gasoline and electricity to propel the vehicle.

Lutz said such hybrids generally have a short electric-only range.

"After eight or 11 miles it reverts to being a completely normal gasoline-electric hybrid, which means you get about a 25-30 percent fuel savings, but the point is they do burn fuel," he said.

More at...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080828/ap_on_bi_ge/gm_toyota_hybrids
 

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Re: Lutz says no hybrid race between Toyota, GM

Sadly, GM is hardly in the hybrid race yet. The Two-Mode system is excellent but sales so far are tiny.

I applaud the Volt, but not the hype, but where it is at in hybrids at present is where Toyota dominates . . . with the Prius . . . and Honda will be entering this segment early next year.
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

I was really hoping for the Volt to be loudly applauded as a GM first.

Remember Displacement-on-Demand aka Active Fuel Management, and how it was trumped quietly by Honda a couple of years ago when they dropped it in their Odyssey after GM had been talking loudly about it for some time?

I fear that the Prius plug-in hype may similarly eclipse the Volt. Not to mention the "proven" Toyota Prius nameplate vs. a revolutionary Chevy.

I do think it is important to note that the Volt is a very different car (I actually know little about the Plug-In Prius, so I'm not qualified to say just how different it is), but I hope that the media and public realize this, and that GM effectively advertises the difference and the economic or other benefits of the Volt.
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

If the Toyota plug-in hybrid is cheaper than the Volt with similar mpg ratings GM is toast.
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

Maybe GM should up the timetable for the plug-in Vue to beat toyoda. It cant be that difficult adding the plug to the two-mode system.
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

Maybe GM should up the timetable for the plug-in Vue to beat toyoda. It cant be that difficult adding the plug to the two-mode system.
They have up the time table, toyota's will be fleet only. Is Toyota useing litium ion batteries because if they are the car is going too cost more.
 

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Re: Lutz says no hybrid race between Toyota, GM

Sadly, GM is hardly in the hybrid race yet. The Two-Mode system is excellent but sales so far are tiny.

I applaud the Volt, but not the hype, but where it is at in hybrids at present is where Toyota dominates . . . with the Prius . . . and Honda will be entering this segment early next year.
Honda's hybrid system is a mild system, it's not a full system, it's very similar to GM's BAS system. Gm's Two mode System wasn't design for car's, the BAS+/ 2Gen two mode will be a lot better. What's slowing gm down is batteries, they have the system's not the batteries, that's were the Saturn Vue Plug in come's in.
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

it doesn't matter who gets to the market first. What matters is who delivers. A plug-in prius will not have the efficiency to justify the price premium over a regular prius. Not to mention the fact that it wont look any different from a regular prius. If anything this can be an advantage for GM in two ways. It will improve the perception towards electric vehicles just in time for the Volt release not to mention free publicity. This would benchmark the plug in prii, thus letting GM launch the volt with a Bang. Imagine Volt ads trouncing the plug in prius. 5 times the range, great FE , but not ugly !!
 

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Re: Lutz says no hybrid race between Toyota, GM

Honda's hybrid system is a mild system, it's not a full system, it's very similar to GM's BAS system. Gm's Two mode System wasn't design for car's, the BAS+/ 2Gen two mode will be a lot better. What's slowing gm down is batteries, they have the system's not the batteries, that's were the Saturn Vue Plug in come's in.
GM's BAS and Honda's IMA are not similar systems. The IMA motor is sandwiched in between the engine and transmission in place of the flywheel. IMA is substantially stronger than BAS, allowing Honda to use a much smaller engine than what GM can use with BAS. As for BAS, GM's system is substantially limited by the fact that their system transmits power through the serpentine belt. BAS will not be much more than an idle stop system for GM.
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

If the Toyota plug-in hybrid is cheaper than the Volt with similar mpg ratings GM is toast.
Never a truer word spoken... GM needs to WIN and DOMINATE this race...

There is going to be demand for this vehicle the ultimate winner will be whoever can maximize production....

The winner will not be whoever is firstest... it will be whoever is the mostest.
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

I actually agree with Lutz on an issue for once. The problem is the difference between the powertrains will be hard to explain to most consumers, and I'm certain Toyota still will be perceived as setting the pace of hybrid advancement. If GM had strong marketing, I bet it could deliver the message and set GM apart. But we all know that GM marketing isn't quite up to the task of advertising regular cars, so telling the story of the Volt will be a nearly impossible task for them.

And for what it's worth, based on the PR benefits, I do think it's important who gets their plug-in to market first.
 

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Re: Lutz says no hybrid race between Toyota, GM

GM's BAS and Honda's IMA are not similar systems. The IMA motor is sandwiched in between the engine and transmission in place of the flywheel. IMA is substantially stronger than BAS, allowing Honda to use a much smaller engine than what GM can use with BAS. As for BAS, GM's system is substantially limited by the fact that their system transmits power through the serpentine belt. BAS will not be much more than an idle stop system for GM.
Hello, the BAS+ can handle a small engine diplacement.
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

isnt the plug in vue due out in 2009?
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

I'll post the same thing I posted at ToyotaNation:

Um...he right though.

I am not saying which system is best. However, the Chevy Volt will run for ~40 miles on electric power alone.....then there's a small gas engine whose sole duty is to act as a generator for those batteries (keeping them charged so you continue to travel).

Toyota's system is like the current Prius right? Sure it can and will run on electric power for stints, but I believe it has a gasoline engine that also powers the wheels? Am I right?

If it were a race though Toyota would be ahead by a mile. GM's efforts of using 2-mode hybrids in SUVs ARE commendable. For instance I get 13 mpg city in my Armada, but Hybrid Tahoes are getting 20 mpg....that's an improvement of 35%! Toyota hasn't and has no plans to delve into the hybrid truck/full-size SUV arena. But on the car-front a Hybrid Camry kicks the snot out of a Hybrid Aura or Malibu. And of course there's the love-it-or-loathe-it Prius.

I still think in the context of that (short) article, Lutz is correct.
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

If the Toyota plug-in hybrid is cheaper than the Volt with similar mpg ratings GM is toast.
Heres what i have heard about Toyota plug-in. Of course its a version of the Prius.. and its said that its going to be able to run about 7 miles on just electric power... That said.. the Volt is going to be able to run about 40 miles on just electric power!! Im not sure the mpg rating of the Toyota plug-in.. but over 70% of people will be able to run everyday where ever they go on just electric power alone with the Volt. The Volt is far more advanced then the Toyota plug-in. the Toyota plun-in is going to be low tech compared to the Volt and is most likely being rushed into production so Toyta can just say "hey, look here we are the fist with a plug-in car!!" But i believe the Volt is going to still be the game changer!
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

I actually agree with Lutz on an issue for once. The problem is the difference between the powertrains will be hard to explain to most consumers, and I'm certain Toyota still will be perceived as setting the pace of hybrid advancement. If GM had strong marketing, I bet it could deliver the message and set GM apart. But we all know that GM marketing isn't quite up to the task of advertising regular cars, so telling the story of the Volt will be a nearly impossible task for them.

And for what it's worth, based on the PR benefits, I do think it's important who gets their plug-in to market first.
amen to that. Watch GM bungle the launch of the most important car they've ever produced.
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

Let's see how we got here.

- Watch your competition bring out hybrid technology.
- Miss the shift in the marketplace that was about the happen. (No one in GM ever heard of peak oil apparently)
- Bad mouth the competition's hybrid tech saying the economics are all wrong.
- Watch hybrid sales take off.
- Rush half baked hybrid vehicles (mild hybrid AKA BAS) to the market.
- Watch mild hybrid sales go no where.
- Develop a new plug in hybrid technology that will leap frog the competition
- Introduce the idea YEARS before the plug in hybrid technology is ready.
- Hype the plug in hybrid technology as the biggest news in power train technology in decades
- Hype the plug in tech as being years ahead of the competition
- Hype the new tech more
- Hype the new tech even more
- Hype the new tech in excruciating detail and include it in ads
- Share every bit of information about the new tech with the world and the competition
- Talk about the new tech as the second coming
- Start to temper the hype by saying it will cost $35K to $40K
- Temper the hype more by saying the volume will be very low
- Listen to how your competition will beat you to the marketplace in plug in tech
- Starting talking in terms of how this is not a race

I don't like how this is heading for GM.

I've been saying for years that GM, Lutz, Waggoner, etc. should STFU about future products, hype the stuff you have and are selling TODAY (even if it is crap compared to the new stuff), work on the new stuff out of the spotlight so the competition doesn't know where you are heading years in advance, and bring it out AHEAD of the competition with minimal introduction lead time.

Mark
 

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Re: Lutz says "no plug-in hybrid race" between Toyota, GM; Toyota to Debut Plug-in Fi

Let's see how we got here.

- Watch your competition bring out hybrid technology.
- Miss the shift in the marketplace that was about the happen. (No one in GM ever heard of peak oil apparently)
- Bad mouth the competition's hybrid tech saying the economics are all wrong.
- Watch hybrid sales take off.
- Rush half baked hybrid vehicles (mild hybrid AKA BAS) to the market.
- Watch mild hybrid sales go no where.
- Develop a new plug in hybrid technology that will leap frog the competition
- Introduce the idea YEARS before the plug in hybrid technology is ready.
- Hype the plug in hybrid technology as the biggest news in power train technology in decades
- Hype the plug in tech as being years ahead of the competition
- Hype the new tech more
- Hype the new tech even more
- Hype the new tech in excruciating detail and include it in ads
- Share every bit of information about the new tech with the world and the competition
- Talk about the new tech as the second coming
- Start to temper the hype by saying it will cost $35K to $40K
- Temper the hype more by saying the volume will be very low
- Listen to how your competition will beat you to the marketplace in plug in tech
- Starting talking in terms of how this is not a race

I don't like how this is heading for GM.

I've been saying for years that GM, Lutz, Waggoner, etc. should STFU about future products, hype the stuff you have and are selling TODAY (even if it is crap compared to the new stuff), work on the new stuff out of the spotlight so the competition doesn't know where you are heading years in advance, and bring it out AHEAD of the competition with minimal introduction lead time.

Mark
If you belive what lutz is saying then you are crazy. Do you really think there sitting back and saying it's not a race? Come on!! These toyota Pirus Plug in will not be cheap. As I said before the reason that gm Hybrid's can't perform like they should is because of batteries, the saturn vue two mode plug in hybrid with litium ion batteries will be the started of thoes batteries.
 
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