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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Lexus Again Leads All Brands in Quality Survey
By JOHN PORRETTO, AP

DETROIT (June 29) - Toyota Motor Corp. remains the automaker with the most dependable vehicles, led by its Lexus luxury brand, though Detroit's Big Three manufacturers all showed improvement in the past year, according to the latest J.D. Power and Associates vehicle dependability study released Tuesday.

For the 10th consecutive year, Lexus was the highest-ranking brand in the closely watched study. It was followed by General Motors Corp.'s Buick nameplate, Nissan Motor Co.'s Infiniti brand, Ford Motor Co.'s Lincoln label and GM's revamped Cadillac lineup.

GM was the only one of the domestic automakers to score better than the industry average of 269 problems per 100 vehicles, but Ford and DaimlerChrysler AG made significant headway. Last year's industry average was 273 problems per 100 vehicles.

''The domestics are putting their money where their mouths are in terms of consistent long-term quality improvements,'' said Joe Ivers, J.D. Power's executive director of quality/customer satisfaction. ''However, while the domestics continue to outpace the Europeans, the Japanese continue to dominate.''

The study is based on responses from more than 48,000 original owners of 2001 model-year cars and trucks. It measures problems such as wind noise, excessive brake wear, vibrations and the replacement of parts not called for under normal maintenance.

Toyota, whose U.S. sales were up 11.6 percent through May, had seven models score highest in their respective segments - the Corolla compact car, Avalon premium midsize car, MR2 Spyder sports car and 4Runner midsize sport utility vehicle for the Toyota label, and the ES 330 entry luxury car, LS 430 premium luxury car and RX 300 entry luxury SUV for Lexus.

Among individual brands, the most improved from last year were Kia, Suzuki and Audi, though all three continue to perform below the industry average. Kia had 77 fewer problems per 100 vehicles, Suzuki 38 and Audi 23.

GM was tops among the Big Three with 262 problems per 100 vehicles, two fewer than last year. Ford (275) improved by 12 problems from a year ago, and DaimlerChrysler (302) was better by nine problems.


Also see: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...utos_quality_dc

 

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Buick is great. If buick had a GTO type car I would probably get it over the pontiac car. At least the styling would match the name plate. (I'm currently saving for an 04 GTO. just waiting for 05 modle to come out and drop the price of the current one.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Originally posted by akumaknight@Jun 29 2004, 10:09 PM
Buick is great. If buick had a GTO type car I would probably get it over the pontiac car...
Agreed on the general appreciation of Buick.

I anxiously await a fleet of Velite-inspired Buicks. It's quite clear to me that Buick has the initial quality and longterm dependability issue wrapped up. Now if only they could get some sweetness of design into their cars. Then, they would be a force to be reckoned with.

Alas, I've been waiting a long time, and all this breathholding has got me really lightheaded!
 

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I disagree. Old people have a lot of time on their hands and come in a lot for stupid things. I used to work at a car lot in high school and I clearly remeber lots of older folks coming in on Monday morning with a nit pick of some kind.
 

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Here's the same report from a different take:

"Toyota Dominates Dependability Survey"

More Skewed Wisdom...

This tidbit was hidden mid-article, though for Christ's sake it was at least mentioned...

"Perception lags reality
Despite improvements, Ivers, who noted that GM was neck-and-neck with Toyota in the number of highly ranked vehicles, cautioned that Detroit has an image problem stemming from some of its poorly built vehicles of the past, however. "

This leaves me to believes that either all these "Smart Shoppers" pretend to ignore the truth, or that the remainder of the automotive press chooses to mis-report the truth in regards to GM's continuing success story of quality.

Report the real truth, or go away. My challenge to readers: evaluate GM's vehicles by criteria other than how fancy their interiors are, or whether they are RWD V-8's. Or are you even worse than the press...?

Ghrankenstein
 

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Originally posted by SilverZ@Jun 29 2004, 08:11 PM
Buick is driven by old men who dont hear sqeaks and rattles.
I'm fully capable of hearing all squeaks and rattles. :rolleyes:

I'd say older people are even more critical of quality issues.
 

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similiar article from thecarconnection.com
full article here

love this part..
While General Motors, Ford and Chrysler all posted improvements from last year, GM is the only domestic automaker to score above the industry average at 262 problems per 100 vehicles. The industry average improved to 269 problems, versus 273 last year. GM's Buick and Cadillac brands scored better than Toyota-brand vehicles.

 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
"...Consumers have come to assume that the study shows that Caddy and Buicks are better quality than Toyota. Maybe - but what it really means is that owners of Cadillacs and Buicks had fewer complaints than Toyota owners. Toyota owners, however, are younger than those of Buick and Cadillac tend to be tougher evaluators..."

This is an inflammatory statement and in my mind explains why perception sometimes lags reality. Who is the person who wrote this?! Where is the source for this critical analysis? I'm a person of science, and I'm not compelled by statements without some proof. Are younger buyers more picky? Prove it before you go about discrediting the fact that with the exception of Lexus, Buick appears to build the most reliable cars sold in the USA. And this is not a one-hit-wonder for Buick. They have consistently demonstrated this in initial quality and longterm dependability studies.

This type of crap really chaps my a$$.
 

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I never understood why the Buicks are always rated higher than other GM nameplates. The Regal and Century are built on the same W-body platform as the Grand prix, Impala, Intrigue etc. The LeSabre and park Ave are G-bodies and are the same as the Deville, Bonneville and the previous Aurora. The Rendevous is an Aztek, the Ranier is a Trailblazer etc. Most of these vehicles share all the same components like motors, trannys, wire harnesses, window motors and switches so on and so forth. I even think some of these come down the same assembly lines, so what does Buick do that the others can't?
 

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Originally posted by tgagneguam@Jun 30 2004, 07:56 AM
"...Consumers have come to assume that the study shows that Caddy and Buicks are better quality than Toyota. Maybe - but what it really means is that owners of Cadillacs and Buicks had fewer complaints than Toyota owners. Toyota owners, however, are younger than those of Buick and Cadillac tend to be tougher evaluators..."
I see this in a different light than you. Perhaps you're thinking this means that buyers of domestic-brand vehicles are less picky. I see this, combined with the higher loyalty of Big 3 buyers, as having less experience. Because GM buyers (and Ford and Chrysler) do not cross-shop other brands as much, they don't have as much knowledge as to what should and should not go wrong on a car. As an example, many Toyota buyers (as can be gathered by their lower owner-loyalty rate) have purchased other brands of cars.

Buick cars are high quality...but so are all cars and trucks on the market when compared to just a few years ago. I think the difference between most vehicles is miniscule. If you look at the survey, discounting the very top and bottom, from Chevrolet (ranked 11th) to Mitsubishi (ranked 29th), there's a difference of 0.65 problems per vehicle. From Lexus (1.62 problems per vehicle) to Land Rover (4.72), it's not a big deal. Sure five problems on your three-year old car sounds like a lemon....but FIVE problems over three years? That's damn good. We're not necessarily talking about failed transmissions here. One of the problems with this survey is that a problem is a problem...from an engine seizing to a bad fuse.

On a different point: JD Power ranks 17 segments...among the top three in those, the companies produced this many "winners":

Toyota: 13 (12 segments, 7 first-place)
General Motors: 12 (7 segments, 3 first-place)
Ford: 8 (7 segments, 3 first-place)
Honda: 7 (7 segments, 3 first-place)
Nissan: 4 (4 segments)
DaimlerChrysler: 2 (2 segments, 1 first-place)
Mazda: 2 (2 segments)

NUMMI and CAMI each built one vehicle for GM. Porsche had one.
 

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Originally posted by akumaknight@Jun 29 2004, 10:09 PM
(I'm currently saving for an 04 GTO. just waiting for 05 modle to come out and drop the price of the current one.)
You are very wise, grasshopper. There are a lot of GTO's that have made the boat ride over that haven't been sold, and the model year is winding down, with a more powerful and supposedly better looking GTO for 2005, you may get a helluva nice 2004 for a helluva nice deal. That's what I'd do if I could. :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Originally posted by Hudson@Jun 30 2004, 02:15 PM
I see this in a different light than you. Perhaps you're thinking this means that buyers of domestic-brand vehicles are less picky. I see this, combined with the higher loyalty of Big 3 buyers, as having less experience. Because GM buyers (and Ford and Chrysler) do not cross-shop other brands as much, they don't have as much knowledge as to what should and should not go wrong on a car. As an example, many Toyota buyers (as can be gathered by their lower owner-loyalty rate) have purchased other brands of cars.

Buick cars are high quality...but so are all cars and trucks on the market when compared to just a few years ago. I think the difference between most vehicles is miniscule. If you look at the survey, discounting the very top and bottom, from Chevrolet (ranked 11th) to Mitsubishi (ranked 29th), there's a difference of 0.65 problems per vehicle. From Lexus (1.62 problems per vehicle) to Land Rover (4.72), it's not a big deal. Sure five problems on your three-year old car sounds like a lemon....but FIVE problems over three years? That's damn good. We're not necessarily talking about failed transmissions here. One of the problems with this survey is that a problem is a problem...from an engine seizing to a bad fuse.

On a different point: JD Power ranks 17 segments...among the top three in those, the companies produced this many "winners":

Toyota: 13 (12 segments, 7 first-place)
General Motors: 12 (7 segments, 3 first-place)
Ford: 8 (7 segments, 3 first-place)
Honda: 7 (7 segments, 3 first-place)
Nissan: 4 (4 segments)
DaimlerChrysler: 2 (2 segments, 1 first-place)
Mazda: 2 (2 segments)

NUMMI and CAMI each built one vehicle for GM. Porsche had one.
Hudson, I have read your many posts (and look forward to reading them); you're a smart person. However...

The quote in my post is from the article; it certainly does not reflect my viewpoint.

I do follow your loyalty/isolation hypothesis (I've wondered about the same thing). I don't think it accounts [entirely] for the performance of Buick and Cadillac in recent quality surveys. While I can certainly understand that some people are isolated from the experience of driving foreign vehicles, I would imagine that this is not the case for many people. The driving public is an extremely heterogenous group. I don't think that there is one single factor that would explain the superlative performance of any one make, be it Lexus or Buick.

I don't take exception to your hypothesis, but I'm one of those persons who is loyal to GM, though not necessarily to a make. As my income has risen, so have the prices of the automobiles I have purchased, and I have shifted brands. I would not say, though, that I haven't cross-shopped other makes, and I believe I know more about automobiles than the average person.

I also am aware that there are more people like me (including those in my family) who mainly shop GM, though at times have purchased other makes, including foreign brands when it seemed appropriate. I consider myself a bit demanding when it comes to products and services, and surveys from a variety of companies, including J.D. Power, have reflected that.

I, too, have several hypotheses as to why certain makes do well or do poorly in surveys. Unfortunately, I have not been able to test them reasonably and am left wondering what exactly these surveys mean...
 

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Originally posted by tgagneguam@Jun 30 2004, 10:39 AM
..The quote in my post is from the article; it certainly does not reflect my viewpoint.

I do follow your loyalty/isolation hypothesis (I've wondered about the same thing). I don't think it accounts [entirely] for the performance of Buick and Cadillac in recent quality surveys....
Nor did I think that it reflected your opinion.

I don't believe that GM's high ranking in JD Power surveys is entirely due to the high customer loyalty...but I think that things like that skew the survey, up and down. From my experiences, Kias aren't as bad as these surveys make them out to be and Buicks aren't as good. That's not to say that Buicks are terrible or that Kias are outstanding. Just that these surveys must be taken with a grain of salt.
 

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I think the quality of buick (which I love, my LeSabre is a great car.) is in part perceived because of the general age of people buying buciks, comparted to other drivers. Young people are harder and drive more aggressivly than the older people who make up buicks core market.

My LeSabre for example, I got it with 98,xxx miles on it, it was in mint condition. loaded, leather, the works. but it was on older man who traded it in on a newer Chevy truck. In the year I've had it, (i'm 20) I've went through a fence, burnt an exhaust valve (which is evidently a common problem on early 92 3800s) dented the drivers door and the rear passenger door, ripped off bother rear veiw mirros, and gotten stuck in two ditches.

Yea thats a lot of crap I've put the car though. And it started and drove out of every single incident. (except one of the ditches cause it went in head first and the front tires couldent get traction.)

I'd like to see a little japanese car lay claim to the same situations.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Originally posted by akumaknight@Jun 30 2004, 06:30 PM
...In the year I've had it, (i'm 20) I've went through a fence, burnt an exhaust valve (which is evidently a common problem on early 92 3800s) dented the drivers door and the rear passenger door, ripped off bother rear veiw mirros, and gotten stuck in two ditches...
Perhaps I could interest you in a low mileage Sherman tank?

Or maybe not; the LeSabre seems to be serving you well.
 

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Originally posted by T-Keith+Jun 30 2004, 12:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (T-Keith @ Jun 30 2004, 12:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SilverZ@Jun 29 2004, 08:11 PM
Buick is driven by old men who dont hear sqeaks and rattles.
I'm fully capable of hearing all squeaks and rattles. :rolleyes:

I'd say older people are even more critical of quality issues. [/b][/quote]
Sorry, a young buyer is more apt to be critical in this day and age... one example Regal brake noise is 0 pph... monte carlo is 6pph... brake systems are IDENTICAL. Old people cant physically hear and/or concentrate on the small sqeaks and rattles while they try so hard to focus on the road... Im talking 60-80 year olds - the ones that buy Buicks. Proven. There's more examples out there.
 
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