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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The January 2004 issue of TopGear has Jeremy Clarkson driving what is to be the British version of the Holden Monaro - badged as the Vauxhall Monaro.

Looks like the Brits are going to get the LS6 of course they're going to get hit up for GBP35000 for it, the base model comparable to what we're getting as the GTO will go for GBP28500. Pound right now is around $1.77 (ouch).

I'll spare you all my usual droolings about how much all-round better the Brit car mags are than the US birdcage lining. They just are.

A quote:

"To sum up, then, damn. Damn, damn, damn, and double damn. I was rather hoping to hate this Holden. I was hoping to conclude by saying the Aussies should stick to waving at flies. And I was dying to poke some more fun at Vauxhall for making yet another half-arsed and useless decision.

But the Monaro is a wonderful car. Too big, too brash, and too loud, for some, perhaps. I can't see too many outside Chipping Norton church on a Sunday, for instance. But if you have an electric blue Subaru now, or a banana yellow 911, and fancy something a bit different next time round, you shouldn't give a XXXX for anything else."

First the Ford GT, now the Monaro. Clarkson's getting Borged by nice US V8s.
 

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I love watching Top Gear reviews. They are 10384082304823048x better then anything car and driver can put out. They are like mini movies!! I have at least 10 of them. Anyway, I think that everyone in the world thinks american engines are just loud, gas guzling monsters that chew up oil and spit out push rods. But, they cant get enuff of american torque. I thought that guy was gunna make love to the GT40. He did say a couple of comments in that GT40 review that were downright stupid like "no other american car can handle" I guess he hasnt driven a Z06 or Viper? Has he driven a Saleen S7? Mosler?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Originally posted by bigals87z28@Dec 22 2003, 06:53 AM
He did say a couple of comments in that GT40 review that were downright stupid like "no other american car can handle"  I guess he hasnt driven a Z06 or Viper?  Has he driven a Saleen S7?  Mosler?
I think you've made his point for him - American cars that are road-capable by world standards are fairly scarce. There are exceptions, but the rarity of those exceptions proves the rule. And Clarkson likes big, broad statements.

The road test is at: http://www.topgear.com/servlet/tg?DEST=/co...tNumber=01.html
 

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Originally posted by JEM+Dec 23 2003, 11:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JEM @ Dec 23 2003, 11:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bigals87z28@Dec 22 2003, 06:53 AM
He did say a couple of comments in that GT40 review that were downright stupid like "no other american car can handle"  I guess he hasnt driven a Z06 or Viper?  Has he driven a Saleen S7?  Mosler?
I think you've made his point for him - American cars that are road-capable by world standards are fairly scarce. There are exceptions, but the rarity of those exceptions proves the rule. And Clarkson likes big, broad statements.

The road test is at: http://www.topgear.com/servlet/tg?DEST=/co...tNumber=01.html [/b][/quote]
ahahahahhahah Id put a C6 Z06 and Viper SRT10, S7, and Mosler MTS9000 against some of the best of what europe has to offer. Dont even tell me that ever single car coming from europe handles like its on rails and can just fly to 100mph is less then a blink of an eye. Please, dont get your snooty european self all ruffled up by pure American sports cars. There were tests not to long ago and the Viper or Mosler were in #1 place in all the catagories when compared to some italian and other such "supercars". Pshhh, please. Come back and talk to me when something out of europe can pull over 1g in the skid and be under 55k w/o moddification.
 

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The Mclearan still holds the fastest land speed record for a unmodified car I beleieve. I am yet to see an american car that competes with it, and im an american fan.
 

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Skidpads and slaloms are not the norm in europe and the rest of the world in testing real world handling. More emphasis are placed in how the car handles in real world situations. Car culture in Europe and many countries around the world are just different from that of america.

I think iv read somewhere (Top gear??) about a test drive in a viper and a vette, both were pretty critical.
 

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Originally posted by Nocturn_Bird@Dec 24 2003, 07:42 PM
The Mclearan still holds the fastest land speed record for a unmodified car I beleieve. I am yet to see an american car that competes with it, and im an american fan.
for over a million, It better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Originally posted by bigals87z28@Dec 24 2003, 07:16 AM
ahahahahhahah Id put a C6 Z06 and Viper SRT10, S7, and Mosler MTS9000 against some of the best of what europe has to offer.  Dont even tell me that ever single car coming from europe handles like its on rails and can just fly to 100mph is less then a blink of an eye.
As I said, you're making his point for him.

Vipers, Moslers, et al are not daily-driver material. What matters isn't the occasional fringe toys like Moslers, McLarens, Ford GTs, and so forth.

It's the stuff that people actually buy, and carry real people in. In that type of vehicle, American hardware is rarely competitive. You can look at the Lincoln LS and the Cadillac CTS and that's about it. Just about everything else is crippled either by bad design, poor suspension tuning, or at the very least, crappy tires.

Numbers aren't the be-all and end-all in any case, far more important is how a vehicle FEELS at 8/10ths.
 

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Originally posted by JEM+Dec 27 2003, 07:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JEM @ Dec 27 2003, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bigals87z28@Dec 24 2003, 07:16 AM
ahahahahhahah Id put a C6 Z06 and Viper SRT10, S7, and Mosler MTS9000 against some of the best of what europe has to offer.  Dont even tell me that ever single car coming from europe handles like its on rails and can just fly to 100mph is less then a blink of an eye.
As I said, you're making his point for him.

Vipers, Moslers, et al are not daily-driver material. What matters isn't the occasional fringe toys like Moslers, McLarens, Ford GTs, and so forth.

It's the stuff that people actually buy, and carry real people in. In that type of vehicle, American hardware is rarely competitive. You can look at the Lincoln LS and the Cadillac CTS and that's about it. Just about everything else is crippled either by bad design, poor suspension tuning, or at the very least, crappy tires.

Numbers aren't the be-all and end-all in any case, far more important is how a vehicle FEELS at 8/10ths. [/b][/quote]
ok, then show me a european car that is cheap and for the everyday man that can handle? Anything? The Mini? What? The VW Bug? Please, compare apples to apples. :rolleyes: Id put a Jetta VR6 against a Camaro SS or T/A any day of the week. Europeans can make really nice lux cars, but when It comes to every day driving, a Fiat is not my idea of a "practical" ride. Ive been to europe and IMO I had a bigger power wheels jeep then my grandfathers fiat.
 

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The problem here is the cultural difference.

Australia/Europe: Likes little cars with good-to-great handling and little emphasis on engine power

America: Likes big cars with decent-to-poor handling with ungodly amounts of power.

Seriously, look up the coveted Monaros (HQ, et al), they look like rebadged Chevy Novas/Pontiac Venturas and the largest engine options were under 300 cubic inches. Well, there was some kind of 326 Holden or something like that I believe also. 300 horsepower australian cars are looked at like our Hemi's, RAIV/V, L-88, etc.

Hell, the Austrailian charger had a v6 hemi that was faster than all the other Austrailian muscle cars.

It's not entirely accurate, there are always standouts in any group, but I think that's pretty close.
 

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TAFreak,

Hell, the Austrailian charger had a v6 hemi that was faster than all the other Austrailian muscle cars.
from TAFreak

If I may offer a slight correction please

Chrysler Australia made an Australian designed Hemi L6 - 3 capacities

215, 245 and 265 ci and they used the imported 318 and 360 ci V8 where necessary
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Originally posted by bigals87z28

ok, then show me a european car that is cheap and for the everyday man that can handle?  Anything?  The Mini?  What?  The VW Bug?  Please, compare apples to apples.
Oh, let's try pretty much every BMW, Audi, Benz, Jaguar, I'd even include some Saabs in that and maybe a couple Volvos. Yes, even a fair number of VWs though most of what's sold in the US gets crap suspensions and crap tires. Driven an SVT Focus? Okay, it's a Mexican-built version of a Euro Ford. And there's a VERY long list of cars we don't get in the US.

I said real world daily drivers, that doesn't necessarily imply cheap. A BMW 530i or even 540i is definitely a daily-driver. Still, the US only gets the most expensive slice of the BMW/Audi/Benz lines. BMW builds 300K 5-series a year, and most are 520i, 520d, 523i, 525d models. Even a cloth-upholstery, crank-window 520i will cruise 120mph comfortably and has the structure and chassis of any other 5-series.

A few Americans may buy lots of HP, but mostly they drive all that HP very slowly, and mostly Detroit built all that horsepower for short sprints, not real driving. And, of course, as the Camaro's disappearance proved, 300HP in itself may not be enough of an attraction, no matter how cheaply it's sold, when the rest of the car is a badly-screwed-together plastic mess.

Of the 300+HP cars Detroit's ever built, the number that were really comfortable cruising (and I mean normal, family-in-the-back, listening-to-the-radio cruising) at 120mph could be counted on one hand. EVen coming down to a more basic level of vehicle, you can't even begin to compare the road behavior of a Taurus or Impala to a BMW 525i or even a six-cylinder Aussie Falcon or Commodore.

The Aussie cars combine pretty much the best of both worlds - chassis, structure, and build quality closer to European than US, with big grunty US engines and big interiors.
 

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I don't think you understand.

Australia's fastest classic cars were like America's slowest muscle cars. Our fastest were topping out at 600 HP.

Austrailia's cars were/are great at handling, but during real driving conditions on the street they abolutely would not be able to hang with an American performance car.

Case in point, the new GTO. In stock form, it will typically be seeing the "badly-screwed-together" taillights of the Fbodies and Mustang.

And get this, the Fbodies and Mustang are the slowest of the American designed muscle cars.
 

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Well your going to have to keep in mind that the Aussies have the 440HP version over there also.

AND, muslce car HP numbers were made with no accersories on the engine, GTO designers commented that if the LS1 in the GTO was made in the 60's it would have been rated close to 420HP.

As for the new GTO, only the 03+ cobras and LS1 SS/Ws6's are going to be able to slightly pull away from the new GTO. Put any of the other three mentioned cars on a road track with the GTO and they will get stomped into the ground.
 

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No, on a track the Mustang Cobra will definately stomp the hell out of the GTO. But we were talking about the real world, not the track.

And GM doesn't make the Austrailian GTO or the Australian GTS... it's done by a third party. If we get to count the Monaro GTS from HSV, then lets start comparing some of the Lingenfelter Trans Am's that have been built.

1998 - 2002 LS1, Camaro / Firebird
350 CID LS1 package

420 BHP/400 lbs-ft of torque

Package includes:

    * Engine removal, inspection and disassembly
    * CNC porting and polishing of cylinder heads
    * LPE valve springs and titanium retainers
    * Stainless steel intake and exhaust valves
    * Three angle valve job, correct setting of spring tensions
    * Custom designed LPE hydraulic roller camshaft
    * Professional installation, testing and tuning
    * Ported throttle body
    * Port matched intake manifold
    * Borla stainless steel exhaust system
    * Low restriction air filter housing and K&N air filter
    * Chassis dyno report
    * 2 Year/24,000 mile warranty

1998-2002 Camaro / Firebird package price $6,895.00*
 

Lingenfelter Installed Engine Packages

1998 - 2002 LS1, Camaro / Firebird
427 CID LS1 package

540+BHP/ 540 lbs-ft of torque

Package includes:

    * Engine removal, inspection and disassembly
    * Custom 7.0 L aluminum block preparation
    * CNC porting and polishing of cylinder heads
    * LPE valve springs and titanium retainers
    * Stainless steel intake and exhaust valves
    * Three angle valve job, correct setting of spring tensions
    * Custom designed LPE hydraulic roller camshaft
    * Custom forged aluminum pistons
    * Custom forged steel crankshaft & billet steel connecting rods
    * Computer balanced rotation assembly
    * Reassembly and blueprinting of the engine
    * Professional installation, testing and tuning
    * Ported throttle body
    * Port matched LS6 intake manifold
    * Borla stainless steel exhaust system
    * Low restriction air filter housing and K&N air filter
    * Chassis dyno report
    * 2 Year/24,000 mile warranty
    * Original engine reused for cores
Lingenfelter is OEM quality tuning, so it's expensive.

Pretty much any LS1 fbody will beat the new GTO, given somewhat equal drivers. Formulas and z28 cars are just as fast, if not faster, than their more expensive siblings.

Also, the top trim of the HSV tuned Monaro's (GTS) puts out 405 horsepower. The other Monaro they were discussing with more horsepower got shot down in development.
 

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Dear Mr Freak,

Your enlightening quotes need some clarification and justification I feel.

"Australia/Europe: Likes little cars with good-to-great handling and little emphasis on engine power

America: Likes big cars with decent-to-poor handling with ungodly amounts of power."

I think you'll find Europeans would be more than happy to have more powerful vehicles if they didn't have to pay 4 times as much for petrol (gas). Would you be happy to be paying that much to make you're T/A go?

The fact that Europe is a little short on space and rather more densely populated than the USA means that European roads tend to be a fair bit narrower and have a few more corners. This means European cars are often called on to go around those afore mentioned bends and brake sometimes too. Something American cars are, according to you, not required to do in "real world" driving conditions. Try convincing your friendly highway patrol officer that you need 300+ kW (sorry, 400+ bhp) in the "real world". Which world are you from?

You'll also note that Australia's 4 top selling cars are the Holden Commodore, Ford Falcon, Toyota Corolla and Toyota Camry. So yes, youre comment Australians liking little cars is true. For the Corolla. Isn't the Camry America's top selling car? Last time I checked, Commodore and Falcon were large, rear-drive sedans and wagons powered by 6 and 8 cylinder engines through manual and automatic gearboxes. In fact these cars are larger and more powerfull that any Camry, Avalon, Maxima, Accord, Taurus or Impala. Just on Imapla for a moment, how does Impala SS compare with Commodore SS? FWD s/c V6 auto, ugly as sin against RWD V8 with same interior, mechanicals and drivetrain as GTO?

Can I also point out that things must be pretty crook (sad) if you've to start comparing the US motor industry with the Australian one. Just check out all of the good things written about GTO (I know you don't like the styling or the fact it's Australian) and remeber that most of those thing apply to most Commodores. WHY CAN HOLDEN PRODUCE SUCH CARS FOR A MARKET THAT SELLS ONLY AS MANY CARS THAT FORD SELL F-SERIES EACH YEAR AND CHEV, PONTIAC, CADILLAC, SATURN AND BUICK SERVE UP SUCH DROSS AS IMPALA, AZTEK, ESCALADE IN A MARKET THAT SELLS MILLIONS WHY CAN'T GMNA JUSTIFY SPENDING MONEY ON QUALITY FOR SUCH A LARGE MARKET. SHAME ON YOU GM.

I want GM to rule the world as much as the next bloke but you guys are being ripped right off. For every great new car at the top of the GM range (Corvette C6, Caddy CTS, Pontiac G6) the cars at the other end of the scale, the ones most people have to chose from are full of automotive speed humps (Le Sabre, Aztek, Impala). Why can't the US have RWD and great interiors. Or better still, this year's 200kW HFV6 and a 5 speed auto? Go and ask your dealer or give big Bob a call.
 

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"And GM doesn't make the Austrailian GTO or the Australian GTS... it's done by a third party. If we get to count the Monaro GTS from HSV, then lets start comparing some of the Lingenfelter Trans Am's that have been built."

Er, Mr Freak I think you'll the Australian HSV GTO and GTS start life on the same production line as Holden Monaro and Pontiac GTO and Chvy Lumina Coupe. They're removed from the line to be finished by Holden Special Vehicles (HSV), a company partially owned by Holden, and the sold through selceted Holden dealers (usually the larger ones) and are backed up by a full Holden warranty. They comply with all Australian Design Rules and are not in any way considered aftermarket. In fact HSV are recognized as a manufacturer in their own right.
Can the Same be said of Lingenfelter's Trans Ams?
 

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They're removed from the line to be finished by Holden Special Vehicles (HSV), a company partially owned by Holden, and the sold through selceted Holden dealers (usually the larger ones) and are backed up by a full Holden warranty.
Thank you for explaining to everyone how the economics of third party vehicle tuners work. Although, I don't believe HSV is owned by Holden at all.

Lingenfelter is known as the world's best GM tuner company.

After all, they still have the worlds fastest streetable car (Lingenfelter TT Corvette).


Your enlightening quotes need some clarification and justification I feel.
I stand corrected on pretty much everything you said, except a few things.

Try convincing your friendly highway patrol officer that you need 300+ kW (sorry, 400+ bhp) in the "real world".
I don't think this is the biggest issue. Cops are going to catch you no matter what car you drive. You can't out run the radio! :) I think the insurance companies are the biggest obstacle in selling extremely fast cars.

Can I also point out that things must be pretty crook (sad) if you've to start comparing the US motor industry with the Australian one.
Things are extremely sad right now, fortunately things are looking better everyday.

Your choices today are basically a girls car (mustang) or the blanderizer (GTO). That's it. I know austrailia has a choice of a ton of RWD cars with v8s, some pretty fast v6 Ford cars from what I've read, and a ton of closely knit aftermarket tuner options. In America/GM, we have SLP. SLP's "performance" packages have been appearance packages instead for some reason.
 

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I was about to say, you cant buy Lingenfelter TA's off a dealers lot, sorry try again :p

As for your report on any LS1 powered car beating a GTO given equal drivers, that is untrue. You seem to think that all LS1 fbodies have the same power rating and horespower as all the others. If this were true then you would not see WS6's beating regular trans ams, or SS's beating Z28's.

some more facts...

Z06 LBS per HP 7.693
Cobra LBS per HP 9.397
GTO LBS per HP 10.692
Formula Lbs per HP 11.135
350Z LBs per HP 11.236
WS6 LBS per HP 11.287


the GTO actually has less weight per horespower then the Ws6 , 350Z track edition, and the formula firebird, the lighter version of the TA.
 

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Okay, if you knew anything about the LS1 powered fbodies, you'd know that the rated horsepower was some kind of big joke on insurance companies.

Lingenfelter isn't the best match to HSV, I'd say Saleen is for Ford cars.

But they're still both third party tuners and well, Lingenfelter is Lingenfelter. ;)
 
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