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Japanese Goverment Coverd 100% of Hybrid Development

4K views 53 replies 39 participants last post by  djo165 
#1 ·
What if the US Goverment helped GM develop Volt, as well as other domestic automotive hybrid technology?

Lets leave the political parties out of it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23793222/page/2/

The road to a stronger CAFE standard

The Big Three and Toyota are already busy trying to map out strategies for a 35-mpg world. That includes everything from hybrids to plug-ins to clean diesel engines and smaller gas engines that boost fuel economy without sacrificing power. GM and Chrysler are in the process of rolling out a two-mode hybrid system they developed with BMW for pickup trucks and full-size SUVs such as the Chevy Tahoe and Chrysler Aspen. But the technology adds more than $10,000 to the cost of each vehicle, and still only boosts fuel economy to a highway/city average of 22 mpg. Despite advances in engine technology, there just isn't anything else on the horizon that will push pickups and large SUVs beyond 25 mpg, and even that comes at great cost. At GM, Lutz expects that costly gas-electric hybrids will have to make up 80% of the lineup by 2020 to hit the standard. In the meantime, the company is exploring other options: offering a smaller, four-cylinder engine in its forthcoming Camaro muscle car and eliminating altogether some of the gas-guzzler sedans on its drawing board. Ford is readying a new family of gas engines that will improve fuel economy between 10% and 20% compared with the engines they replace.
Quote from article, from Jim Press.

It hardly seems fair to Detroit to compare its efforts in the hybrid arena to Toyota's. Chrysler's Press says when he was at Toyota, "the Japanese government paid for 100% of the development of the battery and hybrid system that went into the Toyota Prius."
 
#19 ·
I would like to see the numbers on your claim of "over a billion dollars", don't know that I trust it out of hand. Either way, a billion dollars is chicken scratch when it comes to developing such technology.

GM alone spent over 3billion dollars developing the EV-1, and then was left high and dry when California simply rescinded its legislation requiring zero emissions vehicles when the Japanese complained that they could not meet the timetable.
 
#5 · (Edited)
:(It seems like Japan is still at war with us , they just use Plasma screens ,and Toyota instead of guns . Is it just me or has every country in the world figured out , they cant mess with our Army ?

But they know they can find another way to get us , Sacramento CA sounds nice .

I think Tax dollars should go to the VOLT ! Why does Pearl Harbor come to mind ?

Yea that Camry is made in the USA , its an American car.

I dont think Japan still has a grudge , i am sure they are over that. That is why there goverment acts the way they do. Little Boy and Fat Man didnt end anything , they just started it all . IMHO.:(
 
#15 ·
This is true, Ralph Nader ripped on these programs. OTOH, nobody cares about Ralph Nader any more.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/061900-104.htm

I hate getting political with all the reactionary doofs on this board, but Obama proposed a huge subsidy program for a fuel-efficient American vehicle program and he got flamed in the local and industry press (here for example) because he drove a 300C. Since Michigan decided to vote for the primary losers, who knows if that deal is still on the table.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_5839572
 
#11 ·
lets remove the law that says "if you can not afford a lawyer the govt. will pay for one" and use that money to develop the batteries.
 
#12 ·
It would appear there is a grain of truth to these stories about the Japanese government assisting Toyota. I'm curious to hear from the frequent posters that have claimed this not to be the case - and that GM's situation is entirely of their own doing.

It would appear there is truth on both sides, no? Japan has been assisting Toyota in many ways that our government isn't matching and GM made some poor decisions in the past. But thats not argumentative enough, is it?
 
#16 ·
Doesn't anyone remember the Partnership for Next Generation Vehicle? The US government spent well over a billion dollars just doing R&D for the auto companies.

http://www.ncseonline.org/nle/crsreports/energy/eng-9.cfm

Japan isn't out to get us - their government (and their industry) is just leaner and more responsive to public perception. It's called humility. They clearly thought that with 5 years of government spending and research, the big three would have their own hybrids on the road and they needed to make something competitive. That they succeeded shows that they were focused on the task because it meant survival. The big three were focused on making nice with Clinton Gore till Bush showed up.

Anyone seen "who killed the electric car?"? It's sad to think what could have been if GM was run by visionary leaders who decided that the Electric Vehicle was an essential investment. We'd be saying "what's a Prius"...
 
#17 ·
Nationalistic Hybrid Research and Devleopment, a play in 3 acts by vcs2600.

Act 1 (year 1992):
Government: We need to increase fuel economy
Detroit: OHhh, its sooo hard. Give us money.
Government: Here's a billion bucks think up something good
Detroit: We have developed this picture of a hybrid car
JapanInc: Oh shlit oh shlit oh shlit
Detroit: F hybrids! The "Real American(tm)" wants to buy SUVS!!!
JapanInc: With honor we present you Toyota Plius
Detroit: HaHaHaHa Nobody wants that crap, All new Chevy Tahoe!!!

Act 2 (year 2003, (katrina, gas hits $3/gallon)
Government: Where's our damn hybrid cars we paid for?!?!?
JapanInc: Plius now top-selling car, very much admired by amerlicans.
Detroit: DIS IS R CUNRTY. (drags knuckles)
Government: That's it, raise the CAFE standards, maybe they'll buy a clue.

Act 3:
To be continued.
 
#18 ·
It's true and they also subsidize their healthcare to the tune of almost $1,000.00 a car, on top of that they closed their market to imports from the US. Why anyone would buy a japanese product is a mystery to me, I would not set my bottom in a Toyota or Nissan. For those that don't think so, Toyota and Nissan are Japanese products, the bulk of their profits go back to Japan, just because you have a few plants in America DOESN'T MAKE YOU AMERICAN!
 
#22 ·
There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution that could remotely give the Feds the power to take your money and mine and give it for research into hybrids. This singular fact renders further discussion on the merits irrelevant. This isn't a political point of view - its the correct point of view.
 
#23 ·
Until Americans change both their driving and spending habits/priorities, gas will continue to rise and we will still pay for it. How much gas do people burn waiting for good parking spot to open up, when you could have parked and walked in the store in that time?

Japan is a much more protectionist country, America is more apathetic with what happens to itself.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Funny that this thread is posted today, as there are several news articles related to points to be made:

I usually rationalize people who support welfare of any kind, be it welfare to an irresponsible, unemployed, unmarried mother who pops kids out like a Pez dispenser who then looks to the government to help her raise her children or an absolutely gigantic company like ExxonMobil getting my tax dollars to "research alternative fuels," as people who, come April 15 of every year, in the balance don't pay the US Treasury much of anything. It's easy to spend other people's money.

Appropriately, Congress is bringing the five super majors to Washington today to grill them on their tax subsidies (that high wage earners in this country pay for) despite posting record profits last year. I suppose the "government should help industry" simps on this site support that, too, right? ExxonMobil needs government help? Yah, OK. ExxonMobil doesn't, and GM certainly doesn't. At least not in that way.

Another interesting report out today shows that in 17 major cities in this country the high school graduation rate is less than 50%! In Detroit, interestingly enough, the high school graduation rate is an astonishingly low 25%! Where is government intervention needed? What are these under-educated people going to do in the workplace? These people, assuming they find work, will need remediation by their employer (which costs companies money), or even the ones that go to college because they did graduate will need remediation despite their sheep skin!

Sounds like the solution is a pro-business, pro-work tax code combined with a government that turns out highly educated, highly trained high school students who are either readily prepared for work or readily prepared for rigorous post-secondary education or training. Not sexy, but a whole lot more useful than the typical American attitude of "well raise taxes and throw someone else's money at the problem; that'll fix it! Yuck, yuck."
 
#29 ·
i dont know why this is a topic? and it has nothing to do with War, Anti-GM or anything malicious. If anything it just makes me jealous that there government supports there car industry. Japan is high on the technology list, (robots that walk and dance come out of that country fer crying out loud!)

Consumers of every counrty buy Japanese products,electronics,not just cars. Every country buys Japanese products. America's focus in technology is in computers and software (apple,silicone valley,sisko systems,google,microsoft)

Japans culture is different. attention to detail and discipline being moddest and education is a mandatory trait. there also traumatized by war, culturally. there history classes teach them of WW2, and atomic bombs. so before anyone concocts political agenda's and racial views do some research, or talk to a japanese person first, if you even ever met one.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Alert: Heresy to be stipulated below.

Heresy No 1.
Like the integrated steel industry of the last century the automotive industry is 'old technology' that doesn't warrant much governmental assistance. The vehcles of 2001 are not all that much different than Henry Fords and Rudolf Diesel. This industry is not aerospace nor is it software and computer industry.

Heresy No 2
Washington has no special interest in either Michigan or Ohio ( or NY or PA or IL for that matter ). The growth in our continent is South and West. That's where the money is going. What's given to one state is necessarily taken away from another state. This may be the biggest difference between Japan and the US. Our concept of 'states rights' makes our Federal Govt relatively weaker than say a more centrally powerful government.

Heresy No 3
Certain organizations have no love for organized labor so watching it wither away on the vine is a good spectator sport. Assisting a non-aligned independent conservative worker base with new jobs in new areas has a long term positive benefit for such organizations.
 
#32 ·
I really hate the endless spewing hate-filled conspiracy theories.

Liberals hate America. Environmentalists hate America. The Japanese are taking over the world. The Chinese are taking over the world. Anyone who buys a foreign car is stupid, hates America and is helping someone else take over the world. The government should help more. The government should stop trying to help. The government is in it witht he liberals, the media and the environmentalists. Only I know the truth and if you disagree with me you're evil, wrong and stupid.

Sweet mother of Mayberry! Can't we just talk about cars?!?

Couldn't the posts have been about how the US government should recognize the strategic advantage Toyota gained and offer similar help to the Big 3 by paying for the installation of E85 pumps or underwriting the cost of Volt-like technology? Instead of endless, mindless bashing?
 
#33 ·
I really hate the endless spewing hate-filled conspiracy theories.
But it's easier to just spout crap instead of looking the facts up! Why post intelligent, adult responses when you can throw a jingoistic emotional comment at something? Sheesh. :D j/k

johnny smallblock said:
Liberals hate America. Environmentalists hate America. The Japanese are taking over the world. The Chinese are taking over the world. Anyone who buys a foreign car is stupid, hates America and is helping someone else take over the world. The government should help more. The government should stop trying to help. The government is in it witht he liberals, the media and the environmentalists. Only I know the truth and if you disagree with me you're evil, wrong and stupid.

Sweet mother of Mayberry! Can't we just talk about cars?!?

Couldn't the posts have been about how the US government should recognize the strategic advantage Toyota gained and offer similar help to the Big 3 by paying for the installation of E85 pumps or underwriting the cost of Volt-like technology? Instead of endless, mindless bashing?
Exactly. Unfortunately, all we're gonna see is a bunch of 'Don't use my tax money to fund what GM should be doing on it's own/Let the Japanese continue their relentless techno-march across the Country' B.S. instead of thoughtful, intelligent discussion. Sad, ain't it?
 
#37 ·
I was bashed, here for repeatedly pointing this out. I think we would be surprised to see a full accounting of the Japanese taxpayer subsidies to their automakers. Yet we will never see that! US govt does the same thing with Airbus and their "competition" with boeing. Crazy madness
 
#38 ·
You are 200% correct with your following statements! good going- "Liberals hate America. The Japanese are taking over the world. The Chinese are taking over the world. Anyone who buys a foreign car is stupid, hates America and is helping someone else take over the world. The government is in it witht he liberals, the media and the environmentalists. "
 
#39 ·
You are 200% correct with your following statements! good going- "Liberals hate America. The Japanese are taking over the world. The Chinese are taking over the world. Anyone who buys a foreign car is stupid, hates America and is helping someone else take over the world. The government is in it with the liberals, the media and the environmentalists. "
Let's keep this stuff out of here..we don't need another Liberal vs. Conservative pissing contest that amounts to both sides being full of ****e.

(that's Irish slang for fecal matter, not Shiite as in Muslim sect, fwiw).

No one here hates America; saddened by the current state of the Union? Sure. Wanting to take a different path in fixing it? Of course. Hate? I really don't think so and to think that someone hates it because they don't think the way you do is stupid, vulgar and pompous and only further divides us.

Oh. It's April 1st. Was I supposed to take that post seriously? I hate April Fools Day.
 
#42 ·
I believe in America. Despite, according to some, the fact that we have the most unsupportive government when it comes to business, despite the fact that government expects corporations (and individuals) to succeed on their own, we have the most diverse, by far the largest economy on the planet. We have the most corporations, we have more of the super-sized corporations than any nation, again, despite the fact that our government must be the most unsupportive of its own companies. We have numerous corporations that lead in their respective industries, again, despite the lack of interference of government. They innovate, they market, they succeed, they profit, again, all without the interference of government.

Maybe allowing citizens and corporations to be as free as possible to succeed on their own isn't so bad after all. Of course, that may mean some fall flat on their faces, but no situation will be perfect. Of course, the government will need to set up some rules, but largely it benefits people and corporations to be free.

To be clear, the primary reason why Detroit sits in the exact spot it does as underdog today is not because the US government has failed to help them out or that Japan has helped Toyota. The primary reason, the majority reason, is that Detroit failed to invest during good years, failed to make great product, failed its customers; that had absolutely nothing at all to do with government. Not one bit. Detroit will rise again when it embraces its heritage as a free American industry and starts building the products with innovative features that we know it can build. That is the America I know and love.
 
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