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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
During the 80s, Chrysler went bankrupt, GM was building ugly cars & quality was decreasing, and Ford was just plain nasty. Toyota was on the verge creating Camry & Corolla, and Honda was making best-sellers with the new Accord and Civic. Others like Nissan, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Isuzu, and Subaru were also up to getting their piece of the pie. During the 90s, Chyrsler's collapse was brought to an end, and GM wasn't improving. Neither was Ford. The Americans decreased deadly in sales, and the homeland market of the Big 3 was vanishing as Japanese & European automakers took over.

It seems like all of that is a blur now. Chrysler is now owned by a German automaker. Despite that, Chrysler remains American rolling out new American-full size vehicles such as 300C, hot-rod American vehicles bringing retro flavor such as Pt Cruiser & Convertible, and the new Crossfire, and Pacifica. GM is bringing out new small-cars, such as Aveo, Cobalt, and Solstice, new lux-vehicles such as LaCrosse, and Velite, cool designs such as XLR, SRX, CTS, and STS and rolling out a new line of improved-models. Ford is bringing out Five Hundred inspired by Audi, Freestyle, improved interiors, and a whole lot more.

Chevrolet has retained its lead, becoming the best-seller out of the Big 4 automakers (Honda, Toyota, Chevrolet, Ford Vehicles) and Honda, and Mitsubishi continue to decrease in sales. People are buying big rebates, and cool styling, and Americans are coming back to the spotlight like they once did during the 50s, 60s and 70s. I've seen improvements everywhere. Inside is the main improvement. Despite bad styling outside, Buick Terraza gives thumbs-up interior styling, something that you could bare to see everyday. Cadillac's cabins are beginning to look stylish such as BMW's, and Benz's.

And new family sedans are putting up a tough fight to take the best-selling sedan title away from Toyota & Honda. More American cars are getting rave reviews, and I finally see a change. Honda, Toyota, and Mitsubishi decrease in sales & loyalty buyers.

So is the 80s and 90s finally reversing? Yes, and I predict that the once famous Toyota and Honda might vanish itself within the next few years. By 2010, Toyota and Honda will have to put up a great fight (which they're doing) to continue in the market, and we'll see from there what the Americans are doing to improve by then.....
 

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LOL !!!
Toyota isn't going anywhere. GM has all it can do to stay ahead of them in sales. And you can thank the expansion of the Chinese auto market for GM's current economic growth. The market cap of Toyota is so many many times larger than GM I highly doubt they'll ever be out of business. If anything Ford and Chrysler could certainly fold with Honda exiting the car business and focusing on building world class small displacement motors for other auto companies (i.e. GM) and building their own line of HondaJet airplanes (which are currently in development). GM, Ford and Chrysler's goliath days are behind them. They are all lucky to still be in business today with the crap they sold for 20 years.

That said, atleast GM, Ford and Chrysler have all learned from their mistakes and are no longer losing market share at the once alarming rate they were. If anything we should thank all the imports for the competition they created. Without them we would all still be driving square unispiring junk heaps. Competition made your current ride what it is.
http://www.world.honda.com/news/2003/c031216_2.html
 

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I think it's going to be a dogfight from here on out. Fortunately, we're in the fight now.

American manufacturers are catching up to the Asians in quality and the Asians are catching up in performance and styling. Europeans are pretty much standing still. Personally I believe the Americans have enough momentum to move and stay ahead of the Asians for a while, but then it may even out again.

This sure is great for consumers.
 

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You should check GM's share of the market its been stagnating at 28% for a very long time, Q1 2003 it was down to 26% down from 28.2% in 2002. It is back up to 28% this year, but that isn't making headway. Do you see Toyota, Honda or the others offering the kind of rebates that GM, Ford, and DMX have been offering.

I don't see Toyota going anywhere, that is a pipedream. Toyota is a much leaner company than GM. GM's financial situation isn't very pretty, they are way over burdened by the cost of there retirees.

You may see a day when Toyota is the 1# automaker.
 

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I think that eventually, GM and Toyota Motor Corp. will be dead even. They both have the will to do things and the resources.
 

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Yea but one is heavy with 4 million layers of entrenched middle managment, a retirement fund that would choke the congressional budget, and a historicaly poor relationship with the UAW.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes, and I predict that the once famous Toyota and Honda might vanish itself within the next few years.
Honda: I see vanishing
Toyota: Give me a break. They're not going anywhere....
 

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Originally posted by gmwsag@Apr 29 2004, 02:53 PM
Yes, and I predict that the once famous Toyota and Honda might vanish itself within the next few years.
Honda: I see vanishing
Toyota: Give me a break. They're not going anywhere....
You actually think Honda will vanish!?! Come on - as much as I don't really like Honda, they are a MAJOR player in the auto industry. I'd imagine a smaller company like Mitsubishi is more likely to vanish...
 

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Originally posted by gmwsag@Apr 29 2004, 08:53 PM
Yes, and I predict that the once famous Toyota and Honda might vanish itself within the next few years.
Honda: I see vanishing
Toyota: Give me a break. They're not going anywhere....
Do you make it a habit to carry on a conversation with yourself. In one post you say they will disappear, in another you say they won't. Get yourself some maple syrup for that waffle. Make a point one way or the other right or wrong but this is rediculous.
 

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Actually Toyota is in a precarious position right now. They have made it big enough to have more than 3 car models and they will have to contend with the difficulty inherent in making a car for everyone in every niche, as GM has. Previously, Toyota and Honda, et al haven't had to deal with anywhere near the scale GM has. Look at Honda.....the TL went 8 years without a redesign and was failing miserably at selling, now they redesigned and are in a boom period again with that model. That is precisely what happens to many GM models. Honda and Toyota can't just constantly redesign one or two models anymore, now that they are attempting to be full line carmakers. I wonder if they can meet the challenge. Maybe they can, maybe they can't, but they sure haven't proved themselves in this arena.
 

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Banzai:

Your grasp on the automotive industry is interesting. Toyota has been a full-line automaker for decades. And they've been doing just fine, even making consistent profits, by redesigning nearly all of their products every 4-6 years. Toyota's in the best position of any major automaker in the world; they're poised to become the second largest automaker in the world...and that's only using four brands (five if you count Scion). Ford is currently number two and they have seven brands (not counting Mazda). And we all know about the cornacopia of brand names GM has.

Toyota has proved themselves VERY WELL.
 

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I think Toyota will eventually suffer a bit--just a bit--from BMW-idous. Before I get to Toyota's problem, allow me to first explain just what I mean by "BMW-idous".

BMW is in an increasingly difficult position trying to maintain its turf because it has gone to great lengths to define itself as something that isn't too hard to duplicate by any manufacturer with a ton of money and the desire to compete on that value premise.

Now, before anyone gets into a tizzy, I'm not suggesting that BMW is going away anytime soon--in fact, I think they remain the most popular luxury brand in America, (largely on 3-series sales of course, but I won't go there).

BUT, the "Ultimate Driving Machine" mantra begins to ring hollow when BMW cars are regularly beaten out in the trade rags by the likes of Infiniti, Lexus, and others. Sure, a few years ago, BMW was untouchable as the ultimate affordable performance sedan; nowadays, you can pick up an Infiniti G35, a Lexus IS, a Cadillac CTS, a Pontiac GTO--a whole host of cars that will provide an experience closely approaching, or even exceeding, the BMW experience.

And as it turns out, it wasn't that big a deal. Create a RWD sedan with the right combination of weight distribution, driving dynamics, etc., then run it around Nurburgring for a few months to work the kinks out, and presto! An Ultimate Driving Machine.

As that kind of driving experience becomes more commonplace in "lesser"cars, I think BMW will need to look for more creative ways to define itself. (iDrive will do it. Yeah, iDrive, that's the ticket.)

Toyota has a similar challenge: for years, it has been all about quality, and now that everyone else has decided to make that a priority, it turns out that making cars to that standard of quality is not some sort of black magic that only the folks at Toyota possess. Companies like GM have figured out how to make cars that are statistically as good or better than Toyota as measured by quality in spite the institutional challenges GM faces in making it happen.

Heck, even Hyundai has figured out how to do it. And at some point, you have to ask yourself...if Hyundai can figure it out, then is it really so hard to do?

We're now seeing some brands of GM cars that are performing better than Toyotas in terms of quality. Imagine the day--and it may not be far off--when the whole of Toyota falls to the #2 or #3 ranking in terms of quality. That will be a big news day, and the veil of invincibility will fall from Toyota just as surely as it is falling from BMW every time a trade rag comparo concludes that "The Ultimate Driving Machine" is something other than a BMW.
 

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I am not a big fan of Consumer Reports as I think many of there surveys are flawed. I see people here getting all gitty over the latest reports of high markings for GM in initional quality. What you should be looking at are the 3-6 year ownership quality. I think you'll see the gap that so many people talk about.


Honda is going nowhere, and Toyota is solid. Remember theat GM has a lot more to think about than there cars. Take a deeper look at GM finances, and I think you'll see a less than steller picture.
 

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BMW's decades-old tagline ("The Ultimate Driving Machine") sticks with the brand. It's not about competition being good enough to compete with BMW, it's about BMW's reputation carrying on. The Lexus IS300 and Infiniti G35 are excellent cars and fun to drive. But buyers don't go to the BMW dealership to COMPARE, they're buying the Roundel on the hood.

Sure, in time, a better car would rise above the "reputation" of a BMW, but it's not like BMW's going to stop improving their cars. With more competition, there won't be as large a gap between BMWs and competitive models. But, barring any quality or reputation pitfall (which could happen), BMW is still a BMW and (good or bad) carries plenty of cache.

Even if the GTO or CTS were better (I haven't driven the GTO yet to make any comparisons, but the CTS is merely "good"), BMW would still wear the badge on the front and rear of the car that actually sells the car.

Toyota has a similar image-strength going for it. People don't buy Toyotas because they're stunningly good looking or have excellent handling or have the best performance...but they do have quality and a REPUTATION for quality. And they've done a masterful job of polishing that reputation.

It takes years to build a reputation (and literally seconds to tear it down). Hyundai makes nice quality cars...but nobody's (well, no buyers) going to compare them to Toyotas for many years to come, assuming that they keep their quality high. And just because Lexus and Infiniti have vehicles that compete on the same level with BMW products, it doesn't mean that buyers will make that apples-to-apples comparison. Again...it will take years for the two Japanese brands' models to be considered "on par" with BMW (for "fun-to-drive" characteristics and image). I don't believe that BMW will remain alone "at the top" forever.

Remember the tag line from Sprite soda ads: "Image is Nothing?" Image is EVERYTHING to the American buyer.
 

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Hudson,
My grasp on the auto industry must be interesting to you because I have one. Toyota has only recently started making trucks, it doesn't make a serious sports car, and hasn't for years, it runs 2 brands here with a baby Scion on the way, and most of the cars between the 2 main brands it has are interchangeable. That doesn't sound full-line to me, but it's getting there, and.....product cycle times for Japanese cars have been increasing, and in addition to that, they've been doing refreshes as well, where previously they didn't have to. So whatever man. BMW is hitting the skids this year too if you haven't been paying attention, mostly due to the drop in 3 series sales, so it would appear the reputation there has rubbed off a bit. :lol:
 

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Banzai:

Here's why your grasp is "interesting."

Toyota has offered trucks in the US since the late 1950s. They introduced a full-sized pickup in 1993 and a full-sized SUV in 2000, but they offered small SUVs that GM hasn't offered for many years, does that mean GM's not a full-line manufacturer?

Scion isn't "on the way"...it's been on sale since last summer in the US.

"Most of the cars" within Toyota and Lexus are interchangable? Because the RX330 and Highlander share platforms (and no major external body panels or interior components), they're "interchangable?" Toyota does not have a US-market equivalent to the LS430, SC430, GS300/430, IS300...and the ES330 isn't exactly "interchangable" with the Camry, even though they are related. So I don't see how you can get "most" from that.

Product cycles have been increasing. The Japanese have traditionally held to 4-year cycles, but they're finding that Americans can deal with 5- and 6-year cycles between rehashes. But even at the current Japanese standard of 5-years, they're refreshing their products sooner than most Big 3 models.

BMW's 3-Series is nearing the end of it's 7-year life-cycle. Most vehicles trail-off when the new model is about to arrive. Oh...and BMW sales are off 1.8% for the first quarter of this year compared to last year. I don't see that as "hitting the skids." Sales of the 5-Series are up. SUV sales are up. Sales of the 7-Series are down slightly but more than offset by the new 6-Series. In no way can BMW's sales in 2004 be viewed as "hitting the skids."

Yes...."interesting."
 

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Blah blah blah. Whatever man. Clearly there's no talking to you. You must know everything. Since toyota introduced a truck in the 50's that makes them automatically like a company that makes millions of them per year. That's brilliant.
 

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You just keep adding layers to your definitions. Nobody mentioned "millions of them per year" until this last post. A "full-line" manufacturer does not have to have a vehicle in every niche. Since the "full-sized pickup" market is pretty much exclusive to North America, Toyota didn't need a vehicle there to be considered "full-line." Does GM make any "kei" cars for Japan?

I'm sorry if I'm using your arguments against you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
You actually think Honda will vanish!?! Come on - as much as I don't really like Honda, they are a MAJOR player in the auto industry. I'd imagine a smaller company like Mitsubishi is more likely to vanish...
Yet, Honda continues to decrease in sales, and they have to pack on the rebates to actually get sales. The new Accord is uglier than the last-gen Accord, and despite the fact that magazines and critics are giving Accord the 'thumbs-up', it isn't going good with buyers.
Chevrolet is passing Honda in sales, making that a 'first' for quite a while. If a Japanese automaker has to vanish, it'll be in this order: Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Honda, and on and on and on. (at least for right now).

And for the part that I'm changing my opinions, maybe I am. Hey, our president changes his opinion every once in a while.
 
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