GM Inside News Forum banner

61 - 80 of 100 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,853 Posts
Jaguar is first and foremost a sports car brand and then a maker of high-image luxury cars. The best analog to Jaguar in the market today is Porsche — a sports car maker first and then luxury sedans and CUVs second.
No - Jaguar is the opposite of Porsche, it's a luxury saloon maker who has built sports cars - and in both cases they've expanded to SUV/CUVs - your view of Jaguar may be skewed in North America where the sports cars have always been sold but the saloons rarely imported.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43,799 Posts
No - Jaguar is the opposite of Porsche, it's a luxury saloon maker who has built sports cars - and in both cases they've expanded to SUV/CUVs - your view of Jaguar may be skewed in North America where the sports cars have always been sold but the saloons rarely imported.
Jaguars name was built off the XK’s and E-Type. Those are sports cars.
Though the saloons were used to stabilize the company and make it viable, it’s history is tied to Motorsport. Lyons’ saloons still had the sporting character in the models that would evolve into the XJ.

History has been written. E-Type ultimately was superseded by the 911 As sports car king As Jaguar floundered about.

Jaguar’s closest analog really is Porsche. THey’re both small, boutique car manufacturers. For all its popularity, POrsche make roughly 300K cars annually, that’s less than Land Rover, with an ATP just as high, if not higher.
Jaguar can survive at modest volumes with a higher ATP. If E-Type refocuses as a Macan competitor and F-Pace closer aligns to Cayenne, why not? Macan EV launches next year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,853 Posts
Jaguars name was built off the XK’s and E-Type. Those are sports cars.
Though the saloons were used to stabilize the company and make it viable, it’s history is tied to Motorsport. Lyons’ saloons still had the sporting character in the models that would evolve into the XJ.

History has been written. E-Type ultimately was superseded by the 911 As sports car king As Jaguar floundered about.

Jaguar’s closest analog really is Porsche. THey’re both small, boutique car manufacturers. For all its popularity, POrsche make roughly 300K cars annually, that’s less than Land Rover, with an ATP just as high, if not higher.
Jaguar can survive at modest volumes with a higher ATP. If E-Type refocuses as a Macan competitor and F-Pace closer aligns to Cayenne, why not? Macan EV launches next year.
Whilst Jaguar's sports cars sales in America after 1948 were important, the sports saloons built from 1935 initially as SS Cars Ltd, were the mainstay of the company with the sales slogan of "Grace, Space, Pace".

Motorsport was used to sell the saloons - famously "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" - Jaguar's heyday in motorsport was the 1950's dominated by the D-Type which wasn't a production car.

Comparing Porsche SUV/CUVs to Jaguar is erroneous as Range Rover Sport competes with Porsche in that market sector - and Jaguar needs to avoid competing with Range Rover.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,089 Posts
I wouldn't worry about the XJ. The flagship market is difficult.
This was pseudo-announced last year by the president of Jaguar anyways. It is a little disappointing, to say the least.

They already have a BEV XJ mule trolling around too. But it's a cost decision.

But here's the thing. It's on the same BEV platform as the coming BEV Range Rover.
So, the way I see things, Jaguar could actually announce a "J-Pace" flagship instead. This would make most sense to me, as JLR already has the Velar/F-Pace. Why not Range Rover/J-Pace?
You’re missing some details here. Jaguar is no longer using the BEV/ICE flexible platform that was under this canceled XJ and slated for use in future Range Rover models.

JLR's announcement for moving to electric cars was technically announced in 2018.
This reaffirms and realigns their product roadmaps with timeline and the changes due to consumer behaviors and the lost Covid year.

The loss of XJ was hinted at late last year already.
The loss of XE in the US is expected. The most popular Jaguar in the US is the F-Pace.

The problem JLR has had in 2020 was Covid related. It affected their battery supply chain significantly. The US loses the 2021 MY I-Pace because of it. It also puts into question the PHEV Velar and F-Pace in the US. Production has been pushed to March and now May due to battery difficulties and changing the production lines over to Defender.
It annoys me because PHEV Velar and F-Pace are what I'm eyeing. Chances are, the US won't get them either.
(It's also why Mercedes EQC isn't coming to the US anymore either. They can't keep up with demand in the EU.)
These changes have nothing to do with 2020 and COVID and everything to do with the new CEO coming in and cancelling everything Spaeth had in motion. Thierry did not see Jaguar heading in a profitable direction with the previous plan to full EV transformation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,089 Posts
I think the Jaguar lineup will be electric versions of XE, XF, E-Pace, F-Pace, I-Pace, and F-Type. There's probably room for a "J-Pace" as a full-sized CUV flagship as well.
So long as Jaguar focuses on it's sport an luxury heritage, they can continue to differentiate their CUVs from the Land Rovers.

The market still prefers CUVs over traditional sedans. And coupes/convertibles have a very limited market these days anyways.

I think it's a smart move by Jaguar. Besides, Porsche is following down the BEV path too. BEV Macan is due out soon.
Nope. Jaguar will have a smaller lineup than before and it just won’t be EV versions of the current lineup.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43,799 Posts
Whilst Jaguar's sports cars sales in America after 1948 were important, the sports saloons built from 1935 initially as SS Cars Ltd, were the mainstay of the company with the sales slogan of "Grace, Space, Pace".

Motorsport was used to sell the saloons - famously "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" - Jaguar's heyday in motorsport was the 1950's dominated by the D-Type which wasn't a production car.

Comparing Porsche SUV/CUVs to Jaguar is erroneous as Range Rover Sport competes with Porsche in that market sector - and Jaguar needs to avoid competing with Range Rover.
I thought the "Grace Space Pace" slogan was meant to sell the Mk 7? That slogan was meant to sell the original SS?! That's new to me.

E-Type was derived from the D-Type.

Range Rover Sport is no competitor to Porsche. It has to be Jaguar. RR's sit in a weird market where they really don't slot perfectly against any other brand. They're unique. I don't think there are overlapping customer bases here.
Whatever Jaguar evolves into, it has to align closer to Porsche.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,853 Posts
I thought the "Grace Space Pace" slogan was meant to sell the Mk 7? That slogan was meant to sell the original SS?! That's new to me.

E-Type was derived from the D-Type.

Range Rover Sport is no competitor to Porsche. It has to be Jaguar. RR's sit in a weird market where they really don't slot perfectly against any other brand. They're unique. I don't think there are overlapping customer bases here.
Whatever Jaguar evolves into, it has to align closer to Porsche.
Jaguar simply don't compete with Porsche, not these days anyway.

I've been through the Range Rover Sport vs Porsche Cayenne choice and they compete head-to-head - not that I bought either in the end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43,799 Posts
Jaguar simply don't compete with Porsche, not these days anyway.

I've been through the Range Rover Sport vs Porsche Cayenne choice and they compete head-to-head - not that I bought either in the end.
Yes. Definitely not these days.
It would require a significant pivot at Jaguar to get there now.

I just don't see the RR Sport v Cayenne. But ok.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,918 Posts
Yes. Definitely not these days.
It would require a significant pivot at Jaguar to get there now.

I just don't see the RR Sport v Cayenne. But ok.
I also cross-shopped the Sport and Cayenne back in the early 2000s when there were just a handful of performance-oriented SUV/CUVs on the market (both were just launching at the time and joining the ML, X5, and SRX). I have a harder time seeing those two as direct competitors now given all of the options available and how fragmented that market has become.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,534 Posts
I thought the "Grace Space Pace" slogan was meant to sell the Mk 7? That slogan was meant to sell the original SS?! That's new to me.

E-Type was derived from the D-Type.

Range Rover Sport is no competitor to Porsche. It has to be Jaguar. RR's sit in a weird market where they really don't slot perfectly against any other brand. They're unique. I don't think there are overlapping customer bases here.
Whatever Jaguar evolves into, it has to align closer to Porsche.
I view it as a sort of Venn diagram where you have two circles - one being Range Rover, one being Porsche, and there's an overlap in the middle. Looking at them each on their own, they have separate "direct missions" (Porsche - sporty luxury, Range Rover - offroad luxury), but as time goes on, we've seen them overlap, especially when Range Rover pulls a model like the Sport more toward the sporty end of luxury.

As they sit, I certainly wouldn't classify Jag as a "British Porsche", nor do I think Jag has a necessarily sporty image a la Porsche. I think they have a "British luxury with a touch of sporty" image more than anything, though I know they've been trying to go the more sporty route. I also think the interiors were lacking something at the pricepoints they're at, though I think the recent refreshes have helped in that regard.

Without an "911", I'm not sure how you portray that. I'd be interested to see a modern E-Type......I know that's sort of what F-Type is, but I'm talking more retro, but not a direct copy of the E.....something even more distinctly Jaguar, that can then be used as a starting point for a design language of the new family. Obviously it'd be electric.....the E-Type name (if they're willing to use it again) can go along with that EV imagery (EV-Type is perhaps corny/cliche), though I know they used the "i" designation for electrified a la BMW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43,799 Posts
I view it as a sort of Venn diagram where you have two circles - one being Range Rover, one being Porsche, and there's an overlap in the middle. Looking at them each on their own, they have separate "direct missions" (Porsche - sporty luxury, Range Rover - offroad luxury), but as time goes on, we've seen them overlap, especially when Range Rover pulls a model like the Sport more toward the sporty end of luxury.
I just don't see the overlap between Porsche and Range Rover, aside the fact that they're both boutique automakers, with a very specific target niche. RR Sport still retains its offbroad capability and doesn't necessarily have the on-road sporting dynamics that a Porsche would have, though it's still fairly competent. But it's been a very long time since I've driven a Cayenne. So I can't do a mental compare.

As they sit, I certainly wouldn't classify Jag as a "British Porsche", nor do I think Jag has a necessarily sporty image a la Porsche. I think they have a "British luxury with a touch of sporty" image more than anything, though I know they've been trying to go the more sporty route. I also think the interiors were lacking something at the pricepoints they're at, though I think the recent refreshes have helped in that regard.
I just have to disagree here. I think the years of neglect of the Jaguar brand have affected perceptions. But this is where Jaguar needs to be... and should be.

Without an "911", I'm not sure how you portray that. I'd be interested to see a modern E-Type......I know that's sort of what F-Type is, but I'm talking more retro, but not a direct copy of the E.....something even more distinctly Jaguar, that can then be used as a starting point for a design language of the new family. Obviously it'd be electric.....the E-Type name (if they're willing to use it again) can go along with that EV imagery (EV-Type is perhaps corny/cliche), though I know they used the "i" designation for electrified a la BMW.
You do know that Jaguar made an extremely limited run E-Type recently, for modern customers, right?
What I don't want is for Jaguar to revisit its attempt at retro. Though, I did enjoy driving my buddy's S-Type, while he had it.
I guess we'll see how the Jaguar brand evolves with electrification. I have high hopes. It's the one brand I don't want to see disappear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,918 Posts
I view it as a sort of Venn diagram where you have two circles - one being Range Rover, one being Porsche, and there's an overlap in the middle. Looking at them each on their own, they have separate "direct missions" (Porsche - sporty luxury, Range Rover - offroad luxury), but as time goes on, we've seen them overlap, especially when Range Rover pulls a model like the Sport more toward the sporty end of luxury.
I would have said the opposite. At the launch of the RR Sport and the Cayenne, they were different but had some similarities but, over time, the two have evolved in different directions moving further apart. I see more overlap at the lower end among the "pretenders" (I don't mean that to put down those models but to mean that they reflect their brand identity more by association) like Velar, Evoque, and Macan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,534 Posts
I just don't see the overlap between Porsche and Range Rover, aside the fact that they're both boutique automakers, with a very specific target niche. RR Sport still retains its offbroad capability and doesn't necessarily have the on-road sporting dynamics that a Porsche would have, though it's still fairly competent. But it's been a very long time since I've driven a Cayenne. So I can't do a mental compare.



I just have to disagree here. I think the years of neglect of the Jaguar brand have affected perceptions. But this is where Jaguar needs to be... and should be.



You do know that Jaguar made an extremely limited run E-Type recently, for modern customers, right?
What I don't want is for Jaguar to revisit its attempt at retro. Though, I did enjoy driving my buddy's S-Type, while he had it.
I guess we'll see how the Jaguar brand evolves with electrification. I have high hopes. It's the one brand I don't want to see disappear.
In target market, I absolutely see an overlap - let's be realistic, 95% of Range Rover drivers never leave the road......are their products as capable on road as the Porsches, no, but they do well enough for what most drivers do.

I agree they were neglected for too long. I don't know what you mean by "this is where Jag needs to be and should be"?

I wasn't saying full retro, but something that gets it closer to its roots design wise. Everybody and their brother doesn't need to do knife edge nothing-but-creases styling. Give the products some nice curves.

I would have said the opposite. At the launch of the RR Sport and the Cayenne, they were different but had some similarities but, over time, the two have evolved in different directions moving further apart. I see more overlap at the lower end among the "pretenders" (I don't mean that to put down those models but to mean that they reflect their brand identity more by association) like Velar, Evoque, and Macan.
You think RR Sport has become less on-road oriented, and more off road oriented in its lifespan?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,552 Posts
"And in the longer term, the UK government wants to outlaw the sale of all wholly petrol and diesel cars from 2030. Governments in other countries are moving in the same general direction."

Wait... so Cadillac does it and all hell breaks loose. Jag/RR does it... hmmmmm
No one cares about Jaguar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,918 Posts
You think RR Sport has become less on-road oriented, and more off road oriented in its lifespan?
It's more that the the Cayenne has moved further in performance (e.g., the base V6 at launch was anemic while the current base engine is pretty decent, and I feel the platform itself has become more refined at higher speeds) while the RR Sport's improvements have been more towards luxury (the original interior was hardly differentiated from the LR roots).
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
33,260 Posts
I thought the "Grace Space Pace" slogan was meant to sell the Mk 7? That slogan was meant to sell the original SS?! That's new to me.

E-Type was derived from the D-Type.

Range Rover Sport is no competitor to Porsche. It has to be Jaguar. RR's sit in a weird market where they really don't slot perfectly against any other brand. They're unique. I don't think there are overlapping customer bases here.
Whatever Jaguar evolves into, it has to align closer to Porsche.
There is no vehicle dle without competition, no matter how they position themselves. There is always someone after the dollars.
say Range Rover Sport, there is a lot of players in that price point, and consumers consider everything.

you’d be surprised how many people leave the house going to buy this and come home with that, just by a test drive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,934 Posts
It's more that the the Cayenne has moved further in performance (e.g., the base V6 at launch was anemic while the current base engine is pretty decent, and I feel the platform itself has become more refined at higher speeds) while the RR Sport's improvements have been more towards luxury (the original interior was hardly differentiated from the LR roots).
Exactly. The original Cayenne had some off-road chops, now its pretty much abandoned them for Grand Touring/Performance - which is what the market has told them they wanted. RR Sport is luxury off-road, still very capable, even if no one does it. Very different.

Jag just needs to define what it wants to be moving forward. I always viewed Jag as Grand Touring, not full on luxury or performance (outside of a few models). I think GT is the sweet spot for most people and the market - British luxury with a touch of sport, great for a daily driver but fun on the weekends.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
33,260 Posts
Exactly. The original Cayenne had some off-road chops, now its pretty much abandoned them for Grand Touring/Performance - which is what the market has told them they wanted. RR Sport is luxury off-road, still very capable, even if no one does it. Very different.

Jag just needs to define what it wants to be moving forward. I always viewed Jag as Grand Touring, not full on luxury or performance (outside of a few models). I think GT is the sweet spot for most people and the market - British luxury with a touch of sport, great for a daily driver but fun on the weekends.
Basically Porsche went after the X5, so does the RR sport, but, me think the Jeep Track Hawk is the best vehicle in the space...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,089 Posts
All I have to say is it's pure ignorance to assume the Range Rover Sport and Cayenne aren't cross shopped to a degree in the luxury SUV space. You can split hairs about their origin stories all you want but they're prestige luxury SUVs at the end of the day and people shop accordingly. A Range Rover Sport SVR isn't going anywhere with its thin sidewalls just the same as a Cayenne Turbo.

63230
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,918 Posts
All I have to say is it's pure ignorance to assume the Range Rover Sport and Cayenne aren't cross shopped to a degree in the luxury SUV space. You can split hairs about their origin stories all you want but they're prestige luxury SUVs at the end of the day and people shop accordingly. A Range Rover Sport SVR isn't going anywhere with its thin sidewalls just the same as a Cayenne Turbo.

View attachment 63230
Brands self-select their clients through their positioning. Are there people who don't care about or get brand positioning and shop everything in a price range or size class? Of course, but that's not what we are talking about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CJH and mgescuro
61 - 80 of 100 Posts
Top