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Originally posted by desmo9+Jan 29 2004, 06:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (desmo9 @ Jan 29 2004, 06:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-bigals87z28@Jan 29 2004, 05:42 PM


"If you dont have a The Crest, then you aint ball'in."
So that line of yours, above... what's that? Is this Cadillac's new tag line? Like toothpaste? Cadillac's way of telling Lincoln and BMW "we're gonna brush your breath?"

What the heck is your point? I don't think anyone argued against Cadillac going further upscale. A $300K model sold beside a $35K CTS is very questionable, however. In any case, the discussion related to the way brands overlap. The way high-end Buicks overlap low-end Cadillacs. That sort of thing.

And if VW is to Chevy as Audi is to Cadillac, and it's that simple, then you've implied that Pontiac, Saturn, and Buick have no reason to exist. You may be right. [/b][/quote]
You know exactly what I mean by crest. I guess your not hip with the culture so Ill fill you in.

On Cribs on MTV, they had Jurmaine Dupree on. He is one of Hip Hop's richest men. He had a bently in his garage. He said soemthing to the effect of "if it doesnt have a B, then you aint ball'in"

they can sell a 25k 1 Series along with a 300k Rolls, I think caddy can sell a 35k CTS with a 300k ULS. The ULS will be a very limited production run im sure as are RR and Bentlys and Maybac.

and as to the VW to Chevy thing and elimiating Pontiac, Buick and Saturn.
For you to assume this from what I said is very stupid. I never said anything about killing of thoes brands. Im comparing a high volume money maker for the company(VW and Chevy) to the companies luxury cars. Its not my fault there are only a few divisions of VW cars here in America.
 

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Originally posted by bigals87z28@Jan 29 2004, 10:55 PM




they can sell a 25k 1 Series along with a 300k Rolls, I think caddy can sell a 35k CTS with a 300k ULS.
Uh, different brands on the BMW front, no? Isn't that the point, whether you need a different brand to keep a $300K car ultra-exclusive? Even Mercedes felt the need to spin off a new nameplate.

Still don't get the Ballin thing, sorry. Sounds to me like you must be half my age, which explains why our tastes are rather dissimilar.

Shoudn't it be... "If you don't have the B, you ARE ballin?" I mean, I don't have a Bentley, and I am not ballin. So what?
 

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I don't understand some of the comments on this forum. You can't accept a $65K Buick, but you can accept a $95K VW........... the maker of the Beetle........ the equivalent of Kia-like transportation??? If VW can go from building the most basic and low-end transportation around to building an S-Class rival why is it so hard to accept one from Buick?

And it's not like Buick would be moving upmarket into uncharted territory like VW. They would just be going back to the position they held before, when they were known as the "doctor's car." And Buick wouldn't be offering a $65K top-of-the-line model while also selling a $6,000 Lupo as, again, VW does. So, a $65K Park Avenue (or something) and a $30K LaCrosse wearing the same badge on the front seems a lot more creddible to me than a $6K Lupo and a $96 Phaeton wearing the same badge. Why the prejudice, the contradiction??
 

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Originally posted by caling7@Feb 5 2004, 06:23 PM
I don't understand some of the comments on this forum. You can't accept a $65K Buick, but you can accept a $95K VW........... the maker of the Beetle........ the equivalent of Kia-like transportation??? If VW can go from building the most basic and low-end transportation around to building an S-Class rival why is it so hard to accept one from Buick?

And it's not like Buick would be moving upmarket into uncharted territory like VW. They would just be going back to the position they held before, when they were known as the "doctor's car." And Buick wouldn't be offering a $65K top-of-the-line model while also selling a $6,000 Lupo as, again, VW does. So, a $65K Park Avenue (or something) and a $30K LaCrosse wearing the same badge on the front seems a lot more creddible to me than a $6K Lupo and a $96 Phaeton wearing the same badge. Why the prejudice, the contradiction??
No. I can't accept a $65K Buick.
No. I can't accept a $94K VW.

I don't believe a $65-94K VW has a place in its current lineup. I don't believe a $65K Park Avenue has any place in teh Buick lineup either. I don't believe Buick should crack the $50K barrier at all with their cars. If Buick wants to go back to where it was... then it's going have to do so. with no "quantum leaps" into the $50K+ category. They need to ease into it.

ANd if for whatever reason, Buick releases a $65K car, then they're going to run smack into the DTS. I don't think thtat's going to happen. I think Park Avenue Ultra will peak at $45-49K. And that's fine.

VW's off in their own little world, and problems are beginning to manifest itself.
 

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The Park Ave Ultra's pricing already shadows the DeVille's. Of course, with the Fisher Price interior in the Ultra, there is less competition betwen the cars than you'd expect.

If a traditional brand overlaps in pricing with a more modern sibling, all is well. Even Rolls and Bentley employed this strategy for years.

So, I have no problem with either a $65K offering from VW or Buick (The VW starts at $65K with a V8, so it really should not be considered a $94K car). But in turn, Audi and Cadillac need to remain more contemporary. The DeVille throws a wrench in the pot, but it's only there so Cadillac can keep the "traditional" buyers in the brand.
 

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Originally posted by caling7@Feb 5 2004, 06:23 PM
I don't understand some of the comments on this forum. You can't accept a $65K Buick, but you can accept a $95K VW...
That's part of the point. VW is having trouble selling $100k Phaetons on the same showroom floor (and under the same badge) as the sub-$10k Lupo.

Another part of the point is that GM has other brands to spread those higher-priced vehicles onto (as does VW). If you're going to market eight brands of light-vehicles, you need to keep them from creeping into each other's territory. Oldsmobile got squeezed out. GM should remove a few more, the market's too crowded. It's not like it's 1925 and each brand has ONE UNIQUE product. You had Chevrolet, Oakland, Oldsmobile, Buick, and Cadillac. Cadillac wanted to stretch its range, they introduced LaSalle...Oakland added Pontiac....Oldsmobile added Viking....Buick added Marquette...and the market got too crowded (the stock market crash didn't help either). GM contracted to ONE VEHICLE from each brand until Cadillac merged LaSalle into its own lineup.

And that was the beginning of GM's downfall. Then they added the Corvette...and Corvair...and Tempest...and Skylark....etc. Soon these brands were trampling on each other's markets. Now there's no real distinction between the price levels of Chevrolets, Pontiacs, GMCs, and Buicks (and to a lesser extent Saturns).

Selling a $65k Buick would be moving the brand into Cadillac territory.
 

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In the U.S. market, which we're really discussing here, VW's range starts at around $18K with the Golf/Jetta and stops at around $70K. That's a $50K spread, much less than BMW's and Mercedes', let alone Cadillac's vision of $30K to $200K products. Get off the "$100K VW" already. Whether they can sell at the V8's price point will make or break the case for doing the Phaeton.

On an extreme glance, I see the logic of GM having only two brands -- Chevy and Cadillac. But considering Cadillac's modern edge, there may be room for a traditional offering like Buick. If Caddy's range of edgy contemporaries spreads from $30K to over $100K, I'd see no problem with classically-styled Buicks in the $25K to $60K range. And you're still totally ignoring the fact that some entry-luxury models already overlap (LaCrosse to CTS). If the brands can successfully overlap in that segment, why can't they overlap in the $50-60K segment, too?

VW/Audi distinctions may be fuzzy today, but expect the next Phaeton and A8 to be much more different from one another than they are today. If GM can do the same with Buick and Cadillac, all should be well. Where Pontiac and Saturn fit in, however, is another story.
 

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Originally posted by desmo9@Feb 6 2004, 04:31 PM
In the U.S. market, which we're really discussing here, VW's range starts at around $18K with the Golf/Jetta and stops at around $70K. That's a $50K spread, much less than BMW's and Mercedes', let alone Cadillac's vision of $30K to $200K products. Get off the "$100K VW" already. Whether they can sell at the V8's price point will make or break the case for doing the Phaeton.

On an extreme glance, I see the logic of GM having only two brands -- Chevy and Cadillac. But considering Cadillac's modern edge, there may be room for a traditional offering like Buick. If Caddy's range of edgy contemporaries spreads from $30K to over $100K, I'd see no problem with classically-styled Buicks in the $25K to $60K range. And you're still totally ignoring the fact that some entry-luxury models already overlap (LaCrosse to CTS). If the brands can successfully overlap in that segment, why can't they overlap in the $50-60K segment, too?

VW/Audi distinctions may be fuzzy today, but expect the next Phaeton and A8 to be much more different from one another than they are today. If GM can do the same with Buick and Cadillac, all should be well. Where Pontiac and Saturn fit in, however, is another story.
Not to be nitpicky, but the Golf starts at $15,000 and the high end Phaeton peaks at $94,000. That's a spread of $80K. BMW has a spread of about $89K. Mercedes has a spread of about $95K (not counting SLR). Cadillac has a spread of about $45K. VW has been unable to sell the Phaeton with a V6 in Europe, and VW dealers said they couldn't sell that car with a V6 in the US. (The V6 in Europe sells for €58K ($72K) and the V12 is €102.5K ($128.5K) at current rates.)

You think there's overlap between the LaCrosse and the CTS? :blink: :blink: Other than price, I really see no overlap. The 2 cars are targetting different segments of the market. I think the concern is Park Avenue Ultra and DTS will overlap considerably, if the PAU enters the $50K+ territory, that will be a $9K increase over it's current MSRP. Assuming a DHS variant of the DTS in 2005, and probably increases for the models, you can have $49K for DHS and $55 for DTS. ASsuming PAU will also have better luxury appointments and a better dash, then it will be right in DHS/DTS territory. Both will be FWD cars. And DTS will be the sole "traditional" luxury car in the Cadillac lineup. And That's overlap. It might be just one car, but if there is a car above the PAU, say a new Roadmaster or something, you enter STS territory.

I do expect VW/Audi lines to blur in 2 years with the new Passat kicking off. The A8 W12 will start to change things, but I really fail to see the difference between A8 W12 and Phaeton W12 at this point, other than the A8 has a new retro grille that resembles the grilles from the old Auto Union days.

As for where Pontiac and Saturn fit in? I dont totally buy into the idea of Pontaic being GM's BMW. Saturn? Its focus was lost sometime in 1997. I like to think that Saturn is the "domestic alternative to imports," but not so long as that blasted minivan is in the lineup. But that Ion and Ion Redline are pretty sweet... and at $20K, it's a bargain.
 

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Originally posted by mgescuro@Feb 7 2004, 04:25 AM


You think there's overlap between the LaCrosse and the CTS? :blink: :blink: Other than price, I really see no overlap.
You either don't read very well, or I type in invisible ink. I said they overlap in price, but it has NOT been an issue because they each have a different focus. My point was, if that's OK at $35K, why not $60K?

Make the Buick and Cadillac focus the same, however, as in PAU and DTS, and there is a problem.
 

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I agree with Lutz. I like the edgey design but not on a Cadillac. The design should not be for a luxury brand like that. Maybe an entry level luxury brand. I loved the sixteen. All Cadillac should look simular.
 

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Well, then you're both off-base. Nothing like sharing opinions with a czar. Even when you both are wrong, it still feels good. So grab a Cohiba and join the man. If you have not noticed, the initial report card is in. Cadillac is doing well, largely the result of doing styling themes that are different. Fairly likely that anything softer would have flopped, just as Cadillac flopped from about 1980 through 2002.
 

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does lutz have sole, ultimate say over what goes on product-wise at GM? alot of the press makes it sound that way. almost scary that one man might wield that much power! sure he's made some great calls as of late, but imagine he woke up one day and decided that he'd rather see cadillac's follow that oh-so-sexy kia design theme?!? i hope someone holds veto power... just in case lutz snaps!
 
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