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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
BMW has subsequently slipped behind in some
areas. Its cars don't have the advanced safety,
driving assist and semi-autonomous features
that brands such as Mercedes-Benz boast. At the upper end, BMW is competing against a
new range of Mercedes-Benz S-class models --
including a coupe and soon a flagship Maybach
and a convertible -- with an aging 7 series that
gets redesigned late next year. BMW doesn't yet have vehicles to compete with
the front-wheel-drive Audi compact A3 sedan,
and the Mercedes-Benz CLA sedan and GLA
crossover. The Mercedes CLA in particular
surprised BMW executives, according to insiders. The first fwd BMW, the 2-series Active Tourer, is
so bland looking that the U.S. subsidiary is
questioning whether to import the hatchback. Even the Mini brand, which Krueger oversaw in
his prior board member assignment, has slumped
in the United States.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20141215/OEM02/312159978?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1
 

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Virtually every car they question the lack of existence of, is on the way. 1 Series will hit in less than a year, new X1 is on the way, 5 and 7 Series are being revamped as we speak, and are going to bring with them game changing construction and weight reduction. The 7 Series can't go too high anyway, or else it'd encroach on Rolls Royce's toes.

These brands build too many damn cars as it is. They could all stand to trim 2-3 from their lineup. At least.
 

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Is BMW's throne under threat? No. They built to-notch cars for years. Some of the best driver's cars since the 90s have been BMWs. Now they make merely very good driver's cars that are toward the top of the pack. That's a distinction lost on 99% of drivers. And probably 95% of enthusiast drivers. What buyers know is that BMW makes great cars. What they see when they walk into a dealership is a luxury experience. And the cars are terrifically well made, and they feel great to drive. BMW's throne is just fine.

It took GM years to start to turn the ship. It will take BMW just as long to lose its place at the top of the heap.
 
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In sales, yes. Audi will overtake them.

The throne of driving dynamics is too contested to declare a clear winner, but in hushed voices it's probably acknowledged as Cadillac. Globally and publicly, it's still BMW.

They have no other thrones.
 

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The 7 Series can't go too high anyway, or else it'd encroach on Rolls Royce's toes..
:blink:

HUH? The 7-series can be priced analogously to the S65 AMG, and it STILL wouldn't encroach on the cheapest Rolls Royce.

The problem with the 7-series is that it's near end-of-life. That's not a problem. All cars go through this in the 5th or 6th year!
I'll guarantee you that by the 5th or 6th year, the S-Class will be looking old too.
That's when Mercedes typically offers a major technology and luxury bump on the next gen S-Class, which will trump everything in the market, and the cycle begins again.


The only real problem with BMW is the including of FWD cars into the traditional BMW lineup.
They should have been designated similarly to the i-series.
Keep the BMW line RWD pure. And then designate off-shot brands for FWD.
 

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When it comes to ultimate driving machine, BMW is certainly in trouble from only one manufacturer in the US market. That is Cadillac.

When it comes to driving dynamics, Cadillac is building better drivers cars. BMW can no longer afford to ignore Cadillac.. Eventually, lack of drivers cred will hit them if Cadillac can figure out its messaging.
 

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When it comes to ultimate driving machine, BMW is certainly in trouble from only one manufacturer in the US market. That is Cadillac.

When it comes to driving dynamics, Cadillac is building better drivers cars. BMW can no longer afford to ignore Cadillac.. Eventually, lack of drivers cred will hit them if Cadillac can figure out its messaging.
Thing is, BMWs don't lack any credibility. Cadillac is just that much better.
 

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BMW can no longer afford to ignore Cadillac..
I would argue that they can. BMW sold 360,000 cars in China last year, and this year it's probably going to be closer to 430,000. Cadillac sells like half as much globally.

That means they gained 70,000 annual sales in a market where the term 'driver's car' doesn't mean much, mainly because the owner and the driver of the car are often not the same person. Comfort and packaging are important though. So the question is, did BMW make the 3-series larger and cushier because they don't know what they're doing, or did they do it because they know what they're doing? I would guess that the 3-series drives exactly like BMW wanted it to drive.
 

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When it comes to ultimate driving machine, BMW is certainly in trouble from only one manufacturer in the US market. That is Cadillac.

When it comes to driving dynamics, Cadillac is building better drivers cars. BMW can no longer afford to ignore Cadillac.. Eventually, lack of drivers cred will hit them if Cadillac can figure out its messaging.
Dat blue V! :dro:
 

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Cadillac has proved that you can build a better sport sedan than BMW, as the ATS and CTS have done so. That doesn't mean that they have de-throned BMW, which will cntinue doing well as long as it doesn't rest on its laurels.
BMW has built a strong reputation and image, appealing to those who buy on those factors.
I DO find it somewhat funny that the BMW fan boys went from claiming superior handling to it has more room and a bigger trunk as why the BMW is superior. Using those criteria, a mid1970s GM full size sedan would be better still, with much more room and a much larger trunk.
Cadillac needs to equal or EXCEED BMW to really garner a following. It can be done, and perhaps the ATS-V may be the first that clearly beats the BMW version.
 

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Cadillac has proved that you can build a better sport sedan than BMW, as the ATS and CTS have done so. That doesn't mean that they have de-throned BMW, which will cntinue doing well as long as it doesn't rest on its laurels.
BMW has built a strong reputation and image, appealing to those who buy on those factors.
I DO find it somewhat funny that the BMW fan boys went from claiming superior handling to it has more room and a bigger trunk as why the BMW is superior. Using those criteria, a mid1970s GM full size sedan would be better still, with much more room and a much larger trunk.
Cadillac needs to equal or EXCEED BMW to really garner a following. It can be done, and perhaps the ATS-V may be the first that clearly beats the BMW version.
Dethroaning does not happen overnight. Cadillac is gaining street creds. BMW is loosing street creds..
 

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It may take the general public 5-10 years to realize that!
As car enthusiasts, we know what's happening quickly, so end up leadIng the trends. And if we were New Yorkers, we'd be the smart ones Cadillac wants to sell to;)
 

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Dethroaning does not happen overnight. Cadillac is gaining street creds. BMW is loosing street creds..
Except it's not a zero sum game. BMW isn't losing anything.




So long as they make cars like these (segment and industry leading), they'll be fine.

The ATS-V might beat the M4 in a comparison or on a track, but it won't be a loss so significant that BMW will lose street cred.

They've been losing to Cadillac and others for a long time, but still nobody cares.

It may take the general public 5-10 years to realize that!
As car enthusiasts, we know what's happening quickly, so end up leadIng the trends. And if we were New Yorkers, we'd be the smart ones Cadillac wants to sell to;)
By your logic, Cadillac should be grovelling under my hairy bean bag trying to get me into a car.

The "move to New York to sell to New Yorkers" bit is older than old. You're either ignorant or purposefully obstinate.
 

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Except it's not a zero sum game. BMW isn't losing anything.




So long as they make cars like these (segment and industry leading), they'll be fine.

The ATS-V might beat the M4 in a comparison or on a track, but it won't be a loss so significant that BMW will lose street cred.

They've been losing to Cadillac and others for a long time, but still nobody cares.



By your logic, Cadillac should be grovelling under my hairy bean bag trying to get me into a car.

The "move to New York to sell to New Yorkers" bit is older than old. You're either ignorant or purposefully obstinate.
Non of those cars are industry leading. Let me show you industry leaders

The i8 is not a leader over this


And Certainly the Jury is out on the M4/M3 Vs ATS V.
 

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Non of those cars are industry leading. Let me show you industry leaders

The i8 is not a leader over this
The i8 is more significant than the 918.

The i8 "democratizes" the usage of exotic materials and tries to create a sustainable supercar in every sense. You could do it all in an i8 for no more than $150k (priced competitively with competitors like the R8 and once SLS AMG).

The 918 is another hypercar priced completely out of 99.9% of people's price range at almost a million dollars. It's a hybrid. Big deal. What's special about the 918 that another car doesn't accomplish for a similar price tag?

And Certainly the Jury is out on the M4/M3 Vs ATS V.
It isn't going to be a blowout either way. M4 is still and will remain at the top of the segment if not the outright segment leader.

M4 will have the edge here and there and Cadillac somewhere else, with the total result ending up with Cadillac either winning on the track or being the more fun to drive.
 

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The i8 is more significant than the 918.

The i8 "democratizes" the usage of exotic materials and tries to create a sustainable supercar in every sense. You could do it all in an i8 for no more than $150k (priced competitively with competitors like the R8 and once SLS AMG).

The 918 is another hypercar priced completely out of 99.9% of people's price range at almost a million dollars. It's a hybrid. Big deal. What's special about the 918 that another car doesn't accomplish for a similar price tag?



It isn't going to be a blowout either way. M4 is still and will remain at the top of the segment if not the outright segment leader.

M4 will have the edge here and there and Cadillac somewhere else, with the total result ending up with Cadillac either winning on the track or being the more fun to drive.
The argument you make for the i8 is interesting, but then again, exotic materials can be found all over the place these days, even some camaros now offer carbon fibre parts, and electric drive can be found in Coda, volt and prius, so really, the i8 is not doing anything breakthrough.

As for the ATS V, /M4 unless there is upgrades coming in 2015/2016, the Cadillacs will probably obliterate them on the track. GM has proven over and over again, when it comes to laying down a lap, they are in a special club, owned by Porsche, Mclaren and GM.

M4 will probably hold the sales lead for a while, but certainly not the enthusiasts hearts for ever.
 
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