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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been into cars since I can remember. I like all cars, from old Bugattis, Jags, porsche's to the high reving Japan base cars, awd, turbos, light weight and nice power, affordable packages, and finally big american iron pavment pulling torque.


I currently own an import, though I still love american cars, (at least the ones that are good.) I see on this board a lot of "hate" toward imports, cheap shots, and generally they can do nothing good attitude.

On the same note I see similar attitudes on the import boards I frequent, and I do my best to set them straight to.

It just seems that there should be love of the sport/hobby/love we have for cars, of all kinds.
 

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Well, consider that there was Ford vs. Chevy vs. Dodge rivalry long before that, and it wasn't always pretty. Ever seen the little Calvin taking a p*** on the Ford emblem with an evil grin? Brand loyalty is exacerbated by patriotism and competition with companies based overseas, and there you go. To expect fans of Detroit-bred cars to roll over and buy Toyota Celicas or Honda Civics (when they still can't get over their anti-Ford or anti-GM bias) is as likely as one of my friends from certain communities around town heading down to a Pontiac dealership with an open mind, not pre-programmed and peer-pressured into buying a Toyota, Nissan or Honda instead. In a perfect world where the success of one company didn't mean the shrinking market share or failure of another, you'd be likely to see more appreciation across brand/country lines. It's also possible that many GM fans who are perfectly happy with their product, like me with my Bonneville SSEi, are sick and tired of hearing how impeccable Honda and Toyota are from the likes of Car & Driver or Edmunds.com, or how infinitely desireable BMWs and Audis with all of their hard to describe "panache" are, even after Cadillac, Buick, etc. top many of the quality surveys out there.

Also, I think you'll find that many (if not all) GM loyalists here extend their support to "import" brands owned by GM globally, such as Holden, Opel, Isuzu, Suzuki, Subaru, or even GM Daewoo.

Also, a few might just be cheering for the home team. Ever been to a sports match where the other side is brutally ridiculed during the game? Just healthy competition with a dose of cruelty. :p
 

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It shouldn't be a surprise that GM competitors get bashed here. This is a GM enthusiast board. Conversely, as you said, GM gets bashed on the import boards. It's human nature. When you go to a ball game you don't root for both teams.

What I find curious is that I have read some of your posts and you seem to have no qualms about bashing GM. Your actions don't match what you are saying here.
 

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People like here beautiful cars,it doesn't matter who produces it
Many people like the 911 (993)
but many will hate the new 9-7x
 

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i piss on asian imports. mostly because they have no identity of their own, all they do is steal styling ques from the most recent european sports cars. i also hate the whole F&F culture ya'll have, that says its cool to have huge wing and loud fart cans that serve no real purpose. for example, i've seen civics in my town, with porche headlamps, see skyline taillamps on almost everything.. seems like the truely slow imports, civic being the major offender, always have tons of styling products available to give the illusion of speed.
 

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Originally posted by T-Type@Apr 7 2004, 09:04 AM
It shouldn't be a surprise that GM competitors get bashed here.  This is a GM enthusiast board.  Conversely, as you said, GM gets bashed on the import boards.  It's human nature.  When you go to a ball game you don't root for both teams.

What I find curious is that I have read some of your posts and you seem to have no qualms about bashing GM.  Your actions don't match what you are saying here.
i dont hesitate to bash gm for valid reason, poor quality, bad styling on specific products that i am well informed about. bashing from import people usually sounds like "gm sucks..blah blah blah" with no real facts, data, or experience behind it, which is why i could care less. i actually had a co-worker who is pro-imports and owns an accord who typically bashes impalas, actually borrow it..and response i got after the fact was "i didnt realized it rode so smooth.. more powerful then i thought... dual climate conrols are cool..feels bigger then i thought..etc.etc.". just proves my case.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yea I bash GM hard, as I've had the most contact with them. I don't have a problem with the bashing of other brands... for good reason.

It's comments from mullet men like impala boy here that get me. Statments saying that its only import buyers with bad taste.

I can't count how many rear end in the air, fat tired 84 Z28's ive seen, not to mention the ever popular cherry bomb exhaust.. we all know what a performer that is. Or the funny car hood scoops on a mid 80's cutlas 305... :rolleyes:

Domestics guys do just as much stupid crap to there cars as do the import tuners. If I see a nice camaro done RIGHT, I give props. Just like I do if I see a nice JDM'd civic done ... RIGHT. I am a lover of cars.


Your styleing issue is a foolish one, industrial designers all use cues from other cars, past and present. I am quite sure that if we were to realy look that I could find a lot of situations where GM cars/turcks have similarities to other car/trucks.


Oh I have news for you, go to most any import forum and they HATE 2F2F very much, and apc taillights, and most big wings.
 

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Originally posted by geronimo66@Apr 7 2004, 11:44 AM
It's comments from mullet men like impala boy here that get me.  Statments saying that its only import buyers with bad taste.

I can't count how many rear end in the air, fat tired 84 Z28's ive seen, not to mention the ever popular cherry bomb exhaust.. we all know what a performer that is.  Or the funny car hood scoops on a mid 80's cutlas 305...   :rolleyes:

Domestics guys do just as much stupid crap to there cars as do the import tuners.  If I see a nice camaro done RIGHT, I give props.  Just like I do if I see a nice JDM'd civic done ... RIGHT.   I am a lover of cars.


Your styleing issue is a foolish one, industrial designers all use cues from other cars, past and present.  I am quite sure that if we were to realy look that I could find a lot of situations where GM cars/turcks have similarities to other car/trucks. 


Oh I have news for you, go to most any import forum and they HATE 2F2F very much, and apc taillights, and most big wings.
see, what i mean. try to have a discussion with an "import tuner" , and discuss real issues, they just resort to namecalling and habitually have to bring up 80's gm products. BTW, some 80's gm models have collector car status,(regal gn monte carlo ss), whens the last time someone said "dayum i wish i had an 1984 accord to restore"

as for styling, why is it then that most japanese companies hire their head designers from american or european car companys? strongest exception probably being toyota,they probably wouldnt dare think of it.

Olivier Boulay- head of its Design office/mitsubishi (was GM of DaimlerChrysler Advanced Design Germany)
Moray Callum -head designer worldwide/mazda (from ford)
Tom Semple-head of Nissan Design International (NDI) (from GM)
 

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before we get into a full out pissing match, lets consider a few things:
1)people do stupid things to cars.
2)no auto maker is exempt from making unstylish cars (ex: pinto, chevette)
Yes I like gm cars, but I also like some foreign cars too, toyota supra, nissan syline & 350z. I dislike civics because of vast majority of the population sees them as a cheap alternative to REAL performance cars (which turns out to be a great success for honda) I also think the coffee can mufflers make the cars sound horrible, course im partial towards a v8 with a nice throaty dual exhaust, but thats me.
 

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It's comments from mullet men like impala boy here that get me. Statments saying that its only import buyers with bad taste.
If you check the shirt poll, you'll find that the mullet-ride stereotype of GM drivers is also purely that. So far, only one reader has responded "don't know/not wearing a shirt."

That Crazy Poll

Ghrankenstein
 

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Speaking for myself, I'm a Honda nut. I love my Cadillacs and I've had a great many GM cars over the years that have been very good to me, but I've also been very happy with the Hondas I've had. My Porsche was a pathetic piece of crap, but don't get me started on that...

Having said that, I should remind you that this is a GM site my friend; ergo, many people here are GM fans; ergo, many people here will disparage anything that isn't GM. You'll see plenty of Ford- and Chrysler-bashing among some folks here, so it isn't just the imports that take it on the chin.

Try this: go to a BMW fan site and see how many anti-Detroit folks hang out there. Does that shock you also?

Go to a Lakers site and..ready for this?..you'll actually find people that don't like the Celtics, or the Pistons, or the Spurs, etc.

Go to a pro-Democrat site and see how much Bush-bashing there is, or to a pro-Republican site and see how much anti-Kerry blab there is.

Go to a Honda site and see how much they hate Toyotas. Go to a Kia site and see how much they hate Hyundais. ...er, maybe that's taking the analogy a bit far. :blink:

See a pattern here?

It shouldn't come as earth-shattering news that people on a GM fan site actually have a problem with imports. Heck, those of us who have had a string of great GM cars have had to endure GM-bashing for years from the likes of Toyota fanatics and BMW lickers. Give us a turn for crying out loud! :woot2:
 

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I love cars myself. However the Japanese cars dont do anything for me, and considering the way Japanese car companies are run, and their gestapo tactics to keep other countries cars out of Japan, I have no need for them.

Now other import brands like Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Porsche, etc etc I have no problem with.

Now being a diehard GM man myself, I'd love to get my hands on something Holden. Its GM to me but still an "Import"
 

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Originally posted by Shadowfax@Apr 7 2004, 03:38 PM
Now being a diehard GM man myself, I'd love to get my hands on something Holden. Its GM to me but still an "Import"
I think many folks here would give their left nut for a Holden :D

I'd be perfectly happy with a Holden Lumina, but would love a Commodore.

The Chevy dealer I lease my cars from has a sign that states "We can lease you anything".

So I told my salesman that I wanted a Commodore SS...the look on his face was priceless.
 

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Boy,it's hard to take sides here since so many froreign cars (Asian) are being re-badged through the domestics. GM has Aveo's and GTO's. Imports are imports.
It is not so much the cars that I will dislike or like but the people who own them. The ones that do not have a clue of what they are driving just that it is the "it" car.
For example Mercedes boxy SUV (name escapes me). Even the magazines asked how square can an auto be? But it has the Mercedes logo so it must be good (even though the big M's reliability is going down the toilet). The Lexus crowd is the same-basically like Tommy Hilfiger sweat shirts-pay twice the price to run around with the name of some guy I never heard of? C'mon.
The Porsche people (excluding the Cayenne followers who sadly paid a bunch of money for a vehicle that will never see the shoulder of a road let alone a rocky trail seem to be more technical and actually know a fair deal about their car. and I hear owners of past 911's ridiculing the new ones because of the rear fenders.
But we have my favorite vehicle the Camaro. Each time I try to defend it against the youngsters (they talk this mullet car stuff), a guy will pull up in a Camaro with the top down and it's raining or two week's ago when the midwest was having a brutal, cold week-some guy walks into the gas station wearing shorts proclaiming "I refuse to wear long pants!". Sure enough, he walks out and gets into a nice, dark blue Camaro. I just chuckled.
The Honda Civic people? Most want only reliable transportation at a modest price. Nothing more. And if GM were wise, this would be the car to tackle since Honda has sold a ton of them and, with the gas prices rising, they'll sell a ton more. Yeah, the kids get them and try to hotrod them but I don't blame the kids. The car is usually purchased by dad who doesn't want something that'll bring out the testosterone in his son and equally not break down. For an around the town car, I'd buy one. Better than a Korean-GM Aveo.
The tuner crowd? I've seen some nice work being done to coax out the ponies from those small motors. Maybe I just don't talk to many of that generation to form an opinion. BUT WHAT IS WITH THOSE LITTLE WHEELS THAT PROTRUDE FROM THE WHEEL WELLS?
 

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I dont hate all imports, usualy the ones from Japan. German and Italian cars are pretty much every persons dream car. There is not a person on the planet earth, outside of some tree huggers, that wouldnt take a MB, BMW, Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati, or Audi.
Its that asian import cars have no style. They are bland, cookie cutter bs. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsu... they are all small, FWD econo boxes. Whatever performance edge some of them have had, they dont show here in the US.
Supra-Gone
NSX- overpriced, over rated super car
Skyline- not at the level of previous skylines
Evo- not bad.... for 30k.
More people have an import dominated mind set. Imports have better quality, imports run longer, imports are built better, they have more hp/liter, they rev higher, they have better techonology, so on. But what they dont have is the ability to inspire the need to drive. I belive that Imports alone killed the car culture of America.
Look at the Harley Earl cars of teh 40's and 50's. Beautiful cars that had fantastic lines and they just looked great. But now, we have bland boring crap being pumped in from Japan since the 70's. They killed America's car culture and have now forced a whole generation of people to grow to like boring, bland, econo cars. And when someone tried to break out of the same boring style, they usualy fall right on there face and they go back to the standard blob with 4 wheels.
Today there is more praise for a car if it has higher technology or more trans gears then the rest then if they change the styling to make it look good. For the very small exception of Italian and some American cars, there is nothing out there that has really nice lines and a very cool looking car.
Toyota-blob
Honda-crap
Nissan-angled bloob
Mitsu-who knows bloob

We need to get back into the way American fell in love with cars. Cars like the Camry and Accord would fall to the bottom of the list. Cars with sharp lines, smooth curves and comfort is possible. That is why I dislike imports. They just keep getting uglier and blander. Nothing out there from Japan makes you want to drop all your things and buy that car. Nothing all that striking style wise. The Evo and WRX are bland! They are good cars and fast, but styling wise they are boring, lack luster cars. Nothing there that gets my heart going. Cars like the Solstice, Curve, Vette, Camaro, Ferrari 360, 575, Enzo, The 2 lambo's, and GT40, they all have great styling and great curves and inspire style. The US needs to change the way they look at cars.
 

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I agree with bigal87. The cars look bland, no personality, nothing that makes the cars stand out from one another. I think much of the hate of imports come from the ricers and our hate of them. If they werent around I dont think as many people would hate imports. My problem is if I see a honda or toyota i instantly think of a ricer and being that I hate ricers the hate gets transfered to the car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I am not an import tuner, I have owned many cars. To give you an idea of my history.

86 excort
87 firebird
86 Charger winter beater (took a beating)
89 Formula 350 moderatly modded
91 Formula 350 modded again (loved that fascia)
67 Camaro SS quite fast >:) ( i miss this one a lot)
85 GLH modded so fun
89 GMC P/U
96 Z28
92 454SS P/U
91 Talon TSi modded
Jeep CJ-7
00 Alero POS... motor replaced at 5k miles
s10 extreme... at least is looked cool
88 Mustang LX very fast
99 Toyota Camery
91 Toyota Celica... impresive (first import too)
00 Subaru WRX
95 Jeep Wrangler
96 LandRover Disco


You want bland...

Monte Carlo
Malibu
any Buick


Or you can swing the other way and have so many shapes, lines and surfaces on the car that it looks confused...

anything Pontiac
Chevy trucks... mismatch surface directions fender to hood.
Corvette (wish I could look like an NSX, not that that’s bad.)

What you can bland I call clean, look at the German cars, clean simple shapes, few lines to break up the shape.


There isn't a bad looking Acura. I will agree that Honda is the least visually impacting, that’s been there style. Honda is the appeal to all brand.

Nissan's use of large clean surfaces with strong intersections is a trend that many companies are following.

Infiniti are one of the best on the market in the sense of style, they are making some of the nicest looking cars ever. Bigal-there is no GT-R, just wait.

Toyota has a mix of things that I like and some things that I think they could do better.

Lexus a little flashy, but some very nice looking cars. The is300, great car with tons of potential, the 330 is another nice suv.



Oh yea, what is a ricer by your definition?


60's-70's econo boxes??? What about these?

http://www.sun-inet.or.jp/~skydog/alfa/mik...kawa/2000gt.jpg

http://www.capitalzoftexas.com/images/show...w_2003/240Z.JPG

Lets not make general statements I guess, all companies can make bad designs. GM is not the end all be all, and I don't really think that GM people have mullets. I bet that I have owned a lot of GM's. I am willing to bet I have had my hands in the making of more GM's than many people here.
 

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Toyota?
Toyota cars are like chicken soup without the chicken. That is one car style that I would use if I was a bank robber-they start and are soooooo non-descript that the police would never locate the car. To put the Monte in the same category is B.S. (and that is not the level of education). Before buying, I tried and tried again to like the Solara but found that it is dangerous on the road. Not only does it put its driver to sleep but every driver around it. A whole street of sleeping drivers!
If you want (large, clean) slab sides, buy a mid-50's Mercury or Oldsmobile. The auto world has been there and evolved.
Oh, the Nissan Monaro is a nice SUV. Real efficient space wise. Tell me what is the reason for the half-moon hatch window? A model of building a hauler that you can't put anything in. Nissan has a solid power train that they use with effect-the 3.5L motor has found itself in almost every model.
And remember that there are some old boys out there that would tell you that everything made after WWII is crap and has no style compared to the Dusies, Packards, Auburns,..... Cars of which the motors run so smoothly that you can balance a quarter while it idles. When the term coach building was put to practice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Gee thanks for the intelligent response :rolleyes:


That 3.5L has been on the 10 best-engineered motors list longer than any other.


Like I said before Toyota is very conservative. Though the celica is a strong looker in its class. You know there are a large segment of people who do like cars that don’t scream GIVE ME ATTENTION.


Evolved… please what you like a dozen different shapes and lines going in seemingly random directions. You know people do go to school to learn how NOT to do that right.


Monte Carlo… please I could spend a good deal of time pointing at all the styling errors, or rather poor practices. I fact I have with the one sitting in the back. Again with people who actually design cars… hmm do we see a trend?
 

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The simplest curve to create connecting 2 points is a straight line. That seems to be the design base for many new cars. Pick a point at the front fender and draw a line at a 5 degree incline toward the rear and we've got it- a Toyota Solara!

I wasn't knocking Nissan's drive train. It is their strong point in car design and sets them apart from the other imports. But Murano's hatch window might as well be no window.

If we were computing horsepower or running an FEA on the motor's dynamics, equations exist to say what is good and what is bad. Install a certain cam, headers,..., and one can predict closely what will be the result.
If the school of style had such equations, there would be a constant drive forward (oh, how did retro become so popular?-not supposed to be if these hard and fast rules actually existed).
From an engineering standpoint, there is one truth-it is as easy to assemble an ugly car as a nice looking car. Same number of parts and man hours. So, the real question is why are ugly cars being mfr'd at all if such hard and fast rules are known by all?
 
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