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puma12 said:
I can't believe all these excuses.

I think it's downright stupid to blame the U.S. public for Detriot's problem. Detriot's problem is it's cars, plain and simple. The public has continuously brought these bland, uninspired cars with so-so quality for about 20 years. I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner. Obviously these people aren't stupid enough to buy another of what they think is a half-assed car coming from GM, and whether or not the cars really are half-assed remains to be seen. GM has lost an entire generation due to the last couple years of negligence, and it's going to take a while for them to get them back. It took Toyota 50 years to reach their current 'quality' status...

Sure, Detriot is starting to get it now. Quality is going up for sure. But maybe it's too late? Half of the vehicles in the Big 3's lot are past their due date, and most of them are still lacking in design or any sort of originality (the Chrysler 300C is a good step somewhere.) I'm sure by 2008, many domestic vehicles will compete head to head with imports. But by then, who's going to pay attention?

It seems only Infiniti Z350 and I are the only ones who see why all of this is happening. It took 20 years for GM and other domestics to go down, not just this year. Now they'll pay for their horrid past, whether or not it has anything to do with today or the future of Detriot's vehicles...
In a way, yes import buyers are to blame. Why? Because they refuse to even look or test drive a domestic vehicle. They turn to biased media outlets like Consumer Reports for information on domestic vehicles. GO TEST DRIVE THEM!
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You are saying Detroit vehicles have a "bland" design, am I correct?

Design-wise Detroit has always been better, even most import buyers will admit that. If you think Detroit vehicles are bland, then I guess that makes Toyota and Honda vehicles shapes on wheels?


You also say "...and most of them are still lacking in design or any sort of originality." If import buyers wanted originality and vehicles with personalities, then Toyota would be bankrupt. Don't sit there and say that GM vehicles (the new ones) lack personality, when vehicles like the Camry are just cars, with almost zero personality.

The Big Three have always had good [exterior] designs, its just their qaulity record that hurt them (which is improving everyday). At this time last year GM had 2 major recalls under their belt. None this year. But Honda does have a major recall. Hmmm...
 

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Actually I own GM stock because it has a higher dividen, you would think Toyota with ALL of its money would give more back to their investors

jmiller417 said:
Actually, the profits go back to Toyota shareholders, and I am sure that there are more than a few Americans with the good sense to own Toyota stock.
 

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nsap said:
In a way, yes import buyers are to blame. Why? Because they refuse to even look or test drive a domestic vehicle. They turn to biased media outlets like Consumer Reports for information on domestic vehicles. GO TEST DRIVE THEM!
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You are saying Detroit vehicles have a "bland" design, am I correct?

Design-wise Detroit has always been better, even most import buyers will admit that. If you think Detroit vehicles are bland, then I guess that makes Toyota and Honda vehicles shapes on wheels?


You also say "...and most of them are still lacking in design or any sort of originality." If import buyers wanted originality and vehicles with personalities, then Toyota would be bankrupt. Don't sit there and say that GM vehicles (the new ones) lack personality, when vehicles like the Camry are just cars, with almost zero personality.

The Big Three have always had good [exterior] designs, its just their qaulity record that hurt them (which is improving everyday). At this time last year GM had 2 major recalls under their belt. None this year. But Honda does have a major recall. Hmmm...

Hmmm... Let me see...

Bland car with 'quality status'

or

Bland car with 'little quality status'

I wonder which car gets picked....

People will always be willing to buy a car and sacrifice style if it means little problems with the car itself (at least to them..)

Detriot has a reputation with problems (and by no means an accident) so obviously you know where buyers will go if they want something they think is good.

People, however, are willing to buy a car with style, EVEN if it means marginal quality assurance. Chrysler has struggled to get rid of it's quality status for YEARS, but that hasn't stopped sales of the good-looking Chrysler 300C (yes, I called it good-looking.)
Now what's the rest of the Big 3 doing? Scrambling to redefine the American sedan just as Chrysler has. I don't recall any flashy designs as the Chrysler 300C (besides the PT Cruiser, also a Chrysler) being available from domestics.

To me, Toyota, Honda, GM and Ford all make horribly boring designs. But at least Toyota makes its cars modern bland (Toyota Highlander) then what GM does, which is early 90s bland (Current GM SUV fleet.)

And the Malibu, Monte Carlo, Ion, LeSabre, and Impala certainly don't help things in a design point of view.

By good designs from Detriot these past years, what exactly are you talking about?
 

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SaabKing said:
Actually I own GM stock because it has a higher dividen, you would think Toyota with ALL of its money would give more back to their investors
Does anyone know how much Toyota (and other foreign companies) invests its profit back into the company such as R&D compared to GM and Ford? I suspect Toyota has a much higher investment rate (not counting racing efforts) in engineering and manufacturing than the Big 2. If this is the case, perhaps the domestics should give out less dividents and more back into engineering and manufacturing.
 

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I just happened to look back into the J.D. Power IQ results from last year..... and Nissan is ranked lower than General Motors. Imagine that, Nissan, lower quality than an American brand...
 

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Ballistic said:
I did check my facts. The TSX comes with Heated Leather Seats, 6-Disc in-dash changer standard. Adding those features to a G6 will bring it's price close. Sure the Acura is about $2000 more - give or take. The Acura also comes with a longer warranty and a trust-worthy powertrain. Manual or Automatic is a no-change option. I will admit I like the G6 exterior looks more than the TSX. In the end the Acura is a nicer car that will hold it's value longer. The fact remains, GM did not spend the time and money to make the G6 look as nice as it could have.

Because I dis on GM doesn't mean I hate them, but people need to be honest with themselves... GM has and still is screwing up.
How do you know the track record of the G-6 already? The Drive train is not trustworthy? How the hell do you know that? Your take on holding value is also garbage...GM did not spend the time and money? How do you know...Maybe they spent time to make a car that cost a little less...You people who quote biased magazines do not impress me at all..I'm getting tired of it..I used to come here to read about GM but all I see is people dumping on GM...why dont you start a I hate gm news group and bitch and moan to each other because your act is growing old here!!
 

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Infiniti Z350 said:
Another point:

It's not just the matter of a feeling of higher quality which makes some people buy imports over domestics. Some of it can be pure aesthetics. You just may like the look of the car irregardless of the brand. It may also have features you just can't get in another car. For example, the Nissan Maxima has the Elite Package which makes the rear seats buckets split by a center console with individual buttons for seat heaters and windows. No other class competitor has this. The Maxima also has the Skyview roof (which are two fixed panels of glass in the roof for viewing outside) which is exclusive to Nissans.
Malibu Maxx has a fixed skylite.....Its just a matter of perceived quality why people buy imports....People who buy Imports listen to hype.In my opinion they seem to have a problem making up thier own mind without wondering what others may think....Imports are no better then American cars...period.
 

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puma12 said:
Hmmm... Let me see...

Bland car with 'quality status'

or

Bland car with 'little quality status'

I wonder which car gets picked....

People will always be willing to buy a car and sacrifice style if it means little problems with the car itself (at least to them..)

Detriot has a reputation with problems (and by no means an accident) so obviously you know where buyers will go if they want something they think is good.

People, however, are willing to buy a car with style, EVEN if it means marginal quality assurance. Chrysler has struggled to get rid of it's quality status for YEARS, but that hasn't stopped sales of the good-looking Chrysler 300C (yes, I called it good-looking.)
Now what's the rest of the Big 3 doing? Scrambling to redefine the American sedan just as Chrysler has. I don't recall any flashy designs as the Chrysler 300C (besides the PT Cruiser, also a Chrysler) being available from domestics.

To me, Toyota, Honda, GM and Ford all make horribly boring designs. But at least Toyota makes its cars modern bland (Toyota Highlander) then what GM does, which is early 90s bland (Current GM SUV fleet.)

And the Malibu, Monte Carlo, Ion, LeSabre, and Impala certainly don't help things in a design point of view.

By good designs from Detriot these past years, what exactly are you talking about?
You certainly are a minority (at least here)...

New, good GM Designs...

*Pontiac G6
*Chevrolet Cobalt Coupe
*Cadillac STS
*Cadillac CTS
*Cadillac SRX
*Cadillac XLR
*Chevrolet Equinox (far, far from bland)
*Hummer H2
*Hummer H3
*Saturn Sky
*Pontiac Solstice
*Chevrolet SSR

All of the above are new, exciting products from the General with higher quality.


See this is another problem with car buyers, they hear that Toyota/Honda have such wonderful quality records, but some Toyota/Honda buyers have not even owned a GM or Ford vehicle! I personally have owned three, and have not had ONE problem with any of them. And only one has been recalled. One time.

I don't know where the media gets this bad quality mark for GM anymore... If they go by recalls, that is just plain stupid. EVERY manufacturer has recalls, that was proof last year and last week.
 

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puma12 said:
It seems only Infiniti Z350 and I are the only ones who see why all of this is happening. It took 20 years for GM and other domestics to go down, not just this year. Now they'll pay for their horrid past, whether or not it has anything to do with today or the future of Detriot's vehicles...
If its only you two maybe you should take a look at yourselves and stop beleiving your own BS..
 

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Golf PEI said:
I just happened to look back into the J.D. Power IQ results from last year..... and Nissan is ranked lower than General Motors. Imagine that, Nissan, lower quality than an American brand...
And yet the Nissan 350Z was the 3rd highest ranked Premium Sports Car and the Infiniti FX was the 3rd highest Entry Luxury SUV. Plus, according to that study the domestic automakers as a whole still had the most problems overall (though by a narrow margin).
 

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espo19047 said:
Malibu Maxx has a fixed skylite.....Its just a matter of perceived quality why people buy imports....People who buy Imports listen to hype.In my opinion they seem to have a problem making up thier own mind without wondering what others may think....Imports are no better then American cars...period.
I forgot the Malibu had that, I stand corrected then.

I really wish you wouldn't make broad generalizations about import buyers because the same things can be said for just as many domestic buyers. What's with the "perceived quality" statement? Imports, for the most part, are quality vehicles. Domestics make some quality vehicles as well and although the gap has narrowed, the imports are still slightly higher quality. There are people who do think (incorrectly) Japanese makes are bulletproof but I'm not one of them. I buy Nissan because I like Nissan not because anyone told me to like them. You seem downright intent as painting me as some domestic-hating, anti-GM person. Well, if I can't convince you otherwise, so be it. I just state the facts, don't blame me if you don't like them.

(Sorry about the double post. Others posted as I was posting the first reply.)
 

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nsap said:
You certainly are a minority (at least here)...

New, good GM Designs...

*Pontiac G6
*Chevrolet Cobalt Coupe
*Cadillac STS
*Cadillac CTS
*Cadillac SRX
*Cadillac XLR
*Chevrolet Equinox (far, far from bland)
*Hummer H2
*Hummer H3
*Saturn Sky
*Pontiac Solstice
*Chevrolet SSR

All of the above are new, exciting products from the General with higher quality.


See this is another problem with car buyers, they hear that Toyota/Honda have such wonderful quality records, but some Toyota/Honda buyers have not even owned a GM or Ford vehicle! I personally have owned three, and have not had ONE problem with any of them. And only one has been recalled. One time.

I don't know where the media gets this bad quality mark for GM anymore... If they go by recalls, that is just plain stupid. EVERY manufacturer has recalls, that was proof last year and last week.

Half of those cars aren't here yet or just arrived, so I don't know why you're using them as a reason for buyers to look at GM, when the problem has been going on for years. Though I must say Cadillac is on a roll, (tada design!) with it's Art & Science theme, which I forgot to mention.

The G6 is bland however, the Cobalt obviously influenced by the late 90's Civic and the STS is showing a somewhat constrained Art & Science theme, which I find odd giving Cadillac's current sales (and don't even mention the new DTS)

I'm one of the few bitching about GM's situation, but I feel that I have to. I love GM, they have SO much potential, but it seems they're not willing to show it. Who knows? I may be eating my own words years after this when GM makes it to the top again. But right now, while they're getting there, they still do not have a consistent flow of great products.

Buick is still bland.. Zeta comes in few years
Pontiac gets the Solstice in a couple of months, but currently bland (GTO certainly doesn't help with design)....
Saturn gets the Sky in a year, but currently bland...
Chevy gets Camaro in 2007, but currently still bland, even with the quirky SSR....
Cadillac is the only winner here, with head turning style (maybe less on the new STS and DTS...)

This current situation dealing with dealerships closing, is no surprise when you look at the stats above....
 

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espo19047 said:
If its only you two maybe you should take a look at yourselves and stop beleiving your own BS..
Or maybe we're on a GM site for crying out loud.... ;)

Don't forget, just because import buyers are biased, doesn't mean domestic fans aren't....
 

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New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66 said:
espo19047 - Infiniti Z350 has his opinion, just like the rest of us. Infiniti Z350 is convinced Japan and maybe the Europeans can do "no wrong" when it comes to vehicle design. It is GM's job, and ours, to convince him that Detroit can build excellent performance automobiles. .
I'm not here to convince anyone of anything...I like to come here to get the inside news on GM..I like the fact that I can come here to see the new cars here before anyone else has them..The people who run this site work hard and I like the effort they put out..I'm just tired of people who come here to whine and rain on our parade constantly....I'm just getting a little more vocal about it..I'm going to start challenging the opinions that masquerade as fact around here..
 

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puma12 said:
The G6 is bland however, the Cobalt obviously influenced by the late 90's Civic and the STS is showing a somewhat constrained Art & Science theme, which I find odd giving Cadillac's current sales (and don't even mention the new DTS)
Have you looked at a G6 in person? The exterior design looks really nice in person. Its curvy, and very aggressive looking. I own one.


puma12 said:
I'm one of the few bitching about GM's situation, but I feel that I have to. I love GM, they have SO much potential, but it seems they're not willing to show it. Who knows? I may be eating my own words years after this when GM makes it to the top again. But right now, while they're getting there, they still do not have a consistent flow of great products.
FINALLY, we agree on something. GM will show their FULL poteintial in about 2-3 yrs. Trust me, I have seen the plans.;)
 

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nsap said:
You certainly are a minority (at least here)...

New, good GM Designs...

*Pontiac G6
*Chevrolet Cobalt Coupe
*Cadillac STS
*Cadillac CTS
*Cadillac SRX
*Cadillac XLR
*Chevrolet Equinox (far, far from bland)
*Hummer H2
*Hummer H3
*Saturn Sky
*Pontiac Solstice
*Chevrolet SSR

All of the above are new, exciting products from the General with higher quality.


See this is another problem with car buyers, they hear that Toyota/Honda have such wonderful quality records, but some Toyota/Honda buyers have not even owned a GM or Ford vehicle! I personally have owned three, and have not had ONE problem with any of them. And only one has been recalled. One time.
Your post was aimed at reasons why people should buy GM instead of Toyota'Honda and although I agree that you have listed some of GM's best new product, the reality is only 1 car on that list will comfortably haul 4 people and cost less than $30,000. So maybe there is a problem.
 

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puma12 said:
Or maybe we're on a GM site for crying out loud.... ;)

Don't forget, just because import buyers are biased, doesn't mean domestic fans aren't....
I am biased!! Yes I am!
I don't go to Import sites and bother the people who like that sort of thing. You want to come here to criticize me? Go ahead do what you want....I'm just going to respond more often..No more free ride!
Go to Toyota Insider and take your gripes with you..
 

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espo19047 said:
I'm not here to convince anyone of anything...I like to come here to get the inside news on GM..I like the fact that I can come here to see the new cars here before anyone else has them..The people who run this site work hard and I like the effort they put out..I'm just tired of people who come here to whine and rain on our parade constantly....I'm just getting a little more vocal about it..I'm going to start challenging the opinions that mascarade as fact around here..
Uh huh. When have I rained on anyone's parade or presented something that isn't fact? Do you think I have some kind of hidden agenda jsut because I'm a Nissan fan on a GM board? I respect GM, their efforts and their fans but I don't respect ignorance and intolerance for differing points of view. (And that wasn't directed solely at you.) Would it make you feel better if I changed my sig? It can be a bit intimidating, I understand. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #99 · (Edited)
It's a hot topic, people, but keep it civil, not personal.

"Ignorance" has been tossed around in this thread far too much. Let your facts speak for themselves without the invective. If your facts are solid, no one should need to stoop to name calling.

We're all biased to one degree or another - we're not computers....might as well go to a sports site and rail against the Eagles or Patriots fans.
 

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Infiniti Z350 said:
Uh huh. When have I rained on anyone's parade or presented something that isn't fact? Do you think I have some kind of hidden agenda jsut because I'm a Nissan fan on a GM board? I respect GM, their efforts and their fans but I don't respect ignorance and intolerance for differing points of view. (And that wasn't directed solely at you.) Would it make you feel better if I changed my sig? It can be a bit intimidating, I understand. :D
This is your chance to try to bring people down....I wonder what it is your overcompensating for? Your opinions may be based on facts, the ones you don't forget to leave out that is...Your "facts" and opinions are one big blur..
 
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