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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How would you make it? What would you add? What would be your trim levels? Now lets be real here, your not gunna get a 6000hp quad turbo 502 ci and keep it under 30k so lets hear what you would do styling wise and what it would be packing?
 

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First - I'd make it using as many existing parts as possible to keep costs down. Sigma-light would be a possibility if it scaled down enough to keep costs down; Kappa might be if it could be scaled up enough to include a V8. The key here is to use as many volume parts as to keep costs low and to enable the car to be built in a plant alongside other lines.

Given the possible platforms, all models would have fully independent supsensions and RWD.

The car would be a RWD coupe. Keeping weight down would be of primary importance as it would allow the car to more easily hit performance and fuel economy targets without requiring new engine variations.

Models:

Sport Coupe (base):

Engine - 200 hp 3.5 V6
Target weight: 2800 - 3000 lbs
Target base price: US$18000

- A true youth car. Should be decently quick at this weight (sub 8s to 60, sub 16 quarters). Good handling and looks. An American alternative to cars like the Honda Civic coupe, Acura RSX and of course the base Mustang.

Car should have lots of options so that people can "build their own."

Car should offer a special performance package (RS ?) with an optional 3.9 240 hp motor and improved handling. Given the lighter weight of the V6, it could in fact be the best handler of the line. GM should promote this car in autocross/road racing to give it a "budget performance" image.

Z28
Engine: Smaller variation on GM aluminum small block - the 5.3 in the current line, whatever replaces it as the LS2 family comes on line. 300 hp.
Target Weight: 3100 - 3200 lbs
Target Base Price: US$24000

Chevy's do everything performance Camaro. Should be reasonably fast (sub 6 seconds to 60, sub 14 second quarters) and outhandle anything in its class. Given this is for hard core car nuts, it should come with full support from GM Performance parts and the aftermarket; it should be easy to spend a couple thousand on suspension and engine parts and have a truly fast car.

SS/specialty models
Like ford has done with the Bullet and Mach Mustangs, Chevy should have new, low volume specialty model every couple of years to maintain interest in the line. They could all fall under the SS banner or use different heritage names (Chapparal, ZL1, Penske, etc.)

Examples:

Year one and two SS-600
Engine: 400 hp LS2
Focus: Acceleration - should be a mid- 12 second quater car and look tought as hell
Price: US$28000

Year three Camaro Penske
Engine: 400 hp LS2
Focus: A modern interpretation of the winning Penske Trans Am cars. Offered only in Penske blue with yellow trim. Full handling package. Limited numbers
Price US$30000

The biggest change I see compared with the last generation is a greater emphasis on the sports coupe, with efforts to give it a separate identity. In fact, I'd focus most of my consumer advertising on the Sport Coupe and use the buff books to promote the Z28 and specialty models.
 

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That sounds pretty good. The only thing I would suggest, and I know how a lot of you will be horribly troubled by this...AWD as an option. It is an untapped market. I am sure there will be plenty of flaming, that's fine. For many who just don't wish to deal with the previous F-body's winter antics this would be a viable, reliable, safe alternative. GM doesn't offer an AWD performance car and I would rather have an AWD V8 Camaro than AWD 4cyl Cobalt, though that would at least be something. AWD is something that will probably only become more prevailent in the future, IMO, and this would be away to get ahead of the game.

Of course, IT WOULD BE OPTIONAL, so the purists could get their fix too.

NO! it doesn't "need" it. It would add weight and cost. But if it were using a platform that already could be configured for AWD, it wouldn't add too much to developement costs.

I realize many will see this as unnecessary but I think it could be a great addition to the line. Imagine, RS meaning more than just "sport appearance". It could mean, freaking RALLY SPORT!!! OR maybe use the same chassis as the Camaro for such a vehicle and make it a completely different model with all the Camaro goodies plus AWD, and thus leverage the power and performance of the Camaro towards another market.

Perhaps it is just me but looking outside at the snow(though there isn't too much now) brings to light a desire for a [email protected]$$ American V8 powered AWD Rally style car, a car which doesn't exist.

Bring it on you FLAMERS! :woot2: :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Well you basicly explained it that AWD is not needed on a camaro, but maybe on another coupe based off this car, maybe stick AWD on a 4dr version off teh same chassis. I see 2 type of Simga-lites chasses, one standard and one extended. The extended would get RWD and AWD options on large sedans and the standard could have 2 and 4dr models, but the 4dr could have an AWD option. I guess I would be one of thoes who would check the RWD box instead of AWD.


I would have it like this

Fastest thing for under 22k, SC/RS
3.9 V6 250hp
Base car with many options.
Target= youth kids looking at sports cars.
Have it be able to be customizeable and I hope GM backs up some of the engines with performance packs like they have on the trucks. You can order a RS with a supercharged 290hp 3.9 model if you want. Also body kits and suspension kits can be put on by dealers or orderd by the customer. 5spd auto with tap shift or a true 5spd manual. 16, with optional 17's on the RS. MP3 and good 300watt sound system an option.
Price 18-23k

Luxury at its finest, LT model.
3.9 250hp V6 base
Luxury with a smile
4.4 mini northstar 280hp V8
Target=people looking for a sporty car with a great luxury.
It can come with leather heated seats, really nice luxury car for its price. Great sound system, good ride and handling. The 3.9 is standard with a smaller version of some type of OHC V8 putting out 280. Wood or brushed aluminum accents will go nice with fine. 5spd auto or 5spd manual like the base. DVD navi with on star an option.
25-30k

The True Muscle Car, Z28
LS2 390hp
Z28 is back
Target=20's and 30's males and females looking for a true american pony/muscle car.
Start off with a base RS interior, but with an LS2 and a 6spd manual or 4spd(maybe 5spd) auto. The seats bolsterd for more of a sporty feeling. Suspension upgraded for tight corner carving. Big 17inch wheels with 18 inch as an option. Leather seats is an option with nicer bolstering. Polished aluminum accents decorate a very nice and spacioius interior. A heads up display like on the Vette with performane setting is an option. Suspension upgrades are available. Stage 1, 2 and 3 all offer different suspension settings. Z28 gets heat extractors on the hood. Special 1LE model comes with no radio, no leather, no AC, no auto trans, but large SS brakes, and different cam shaft and exhaust bringing power to 425 and, PS and oil coolers.
24-30k.

King of the Streets, SS
LS2 410hp base
LS7 450-475 option
Target=people who want ferrari handling, F1 accelearation, and pure american good looks.
With Chevy's performance line up of SS cars, the SS camaro is no different. A very small production car with a 6spd only. This is the Camaro super car. Optional engine is the same LS7 as in the Z06, only with a weaker cam shaft and heads. Big 13.5 brake rotors and 4 pistion cals front, 13.2 2 pistons in back., along with very tight suspension makes this car a cobra killer. SS model gets Ram Air hood much like it had from the 4th gens that adds to the power of teh LS1 and LS7. Lage 18 inch rims with big 275 front and 295 rear tires set it off right. The car is a pure scary on the street. Deeply bolsterd Leather seats with the "SS" badge in the head rest. Optional gearing for racing. Other luxury items like DVD navi, heated seats, and heads up display are an option.
Price 30-37k.
 

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I like both of your ideas, except that the Z28 and SS should be switched. When this fist Z28 came out, it was more extreme than the SS. Also, SS is brand wide, so it would fit in with the common image and make the Z28 look more unique. Or, just stuff the LS2 in both, save some money and have 2 badass cars.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Originally posted by Andy@Jan 8 2004, 08:13 PM
I like both of your ideas, except that the Z28 and SS should be switched. When this fist Z28 came out, it was more extreme than the SS. Also, SS is brand wide, so it would fit in with the common image and make the Z28 look more unique. Or, just stuff the LS2 in both, save some money and have 2 badass cars.
Umm, the Z28 was more extream then the SS back in 67? So a 375hp 396 4spd SS was less extream then a Z28 with a 290hp(underated i know) 302?

The SS is Chevy's new peformance moniker and its only right that the top of the line camaro is the SS.
 

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bigals idea is the best on this website. Screw that puny 300hp sh**. I want 400! And thats the z28. i want the ss like 450 atleast! But no matter what.....id try my best to get it up to alteast 500 on my own. You know a new ls2 intake, headers, cam, heads, rockers, valves....screw nitros and super chargers that for pu****
 

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I agree -

2-door Sigma Lite, 2+2 coupe
3.9L OHV VVT base engine
350hp V8 up level engine
Simple interior with few options to keep costs down. No more wacky bulbous shapes in the dash - something clean and ultra-simple.
Simple suspension, maybe something like the new Mustang's, better suspension available for SS.
Cheap, mass produced wheels and tires (people who care will change them anyway)

Try to leverage as much parts sharing under the skin with the CTS as possible, but use simpler, cheaper components where required to keep costs down.

This way you can have:

1. A cheap, sporty RWD car with a 260hp V6 with techy variable valve timing and upgrade potential.

2. A hot performer in the SS, sharing some parts with the Cadillac CTS-V

Problem is that the Camaro can't come close to Corvette power or numbers. Nor should it compete with the Pontiac GTO. Weight and aerodynamics will dictate some of that - as will a 2+2 coupe setup. But by the time the Camaro is re-introduced, these numbers should be sufficient.

The problem is that if the Camaro ever wants to break out of its fan base, it should be offered also with something that can attract import intenders. Something cool like AWD, a turbocharged engine, something.

Or leave that to the Firebird replacement. Turbo Trans Am....3.6LDOHC V6 with a turbo - I think that was a Cadillac CTS concept....
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Are you commenting on red neck's? I take comments like that to heart cause I am not a red neck, never had a mullet, never watched NASCAR(ok, maybe waiting for something else to come on speed channel), nor do I live in a trailer park. Out of all my friends that have camaros and firebirds I have yet to meet one true red neck? I dont know where the hell this came from(smokey and the bandit I assume) but I really wish people would fawking stop with that crap. Ive seen more white trash red necks drive rusted banged up 5.0 stangs then any other car.

I dont want to get off topic here so get back to how you would do it.
 

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You don't need AWD in a Camaro, that's what sand bags were made for!!! lol

I like your idea Tone.
 

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Knowing the chasm that exists between mainstream buyers and die-hard Camaro nuts, I wonder if GM could find a way to cater to the nuts with some kind of special order program.

The number of people interested in a 400+ hp is very small, but they are very loyal and very enthusiastic buyers - people willing to spend a bit extra to get something special (and crazy fast).

Perhaps Chevy should treat the Camaro as a two-tier program. A regular production car that tops out with a 300 - 350 hp Z28. Plus, a speical order program (shades of COPO) where buyers who are willing to pay a significant premium can pick from a number of drivetrain, suspension and appearance packages that leverage the GM parts bin.

Want a Camaro with no sound deadening and a Z06 engine? Fine. Looking for a fully loaded car with a GM Performance 427 small block? Done. Maybe the resulting car would be near Corvette money, but it would be fairly unique and probably not that much more expensive than doing it in the aftermarket.

Don't know if one could make a business case for it, but it would be an excellent way to make an inexpensive pony car for the masses while pleasing the hard core customers that live and breathe Camaro.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
well I kind of went with an LT and RS option in case people dont want all that power. Maybe the Z with a smaller 5.3 as a base and the LS2 as an option? But thats a lot of engines.. unless some of thoes motors will end up in some of teh other cars that share the chassis? I could see a mini northstar in a buick RWD sedan.
 

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3 models to compeate with the new Mustang models and mabey future Dodge Charger models. A V-6, an SS and a Z-28. Coupe and convertable.
 

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I would give it the interior of the Solstice and the power of the GTO. Sigma lite would be good but the overall stance that is more like the G6 Coupe. Long wheelbase so there can be more usable space.
Engines would have to be the 3.9L V6 @ 240hp as base
the 6.0L LS2 @ 385bhp as the Z28 variant. The SS could have the same engine just tuned for more power around 395bhp, (sorry Vette)
Aim for a Curb weight of 3100-3600lb, have independent rear Suspension and a 6spd trans available through the entire trim line.
ths 5spd Auto would be a nice optional trans.
the ZL1 would them be the Cobra Killer, special order model, which would be like a 2+2, Z06.
Long Live Camaro.
:beer:
 

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Originally posted by bigals87z28+Jan 8 2004, 03:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bigals87z28 @ Jan 8 2004, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Andy@Jan 8 2004, 08:13 PM
I like both of your ideas, except that the Z28 and SS should be switched. When this fist Z28 came out, it was more extreme than the SS. Also, SS is brand wide, so it would fit in with the common image and make the Z28 look more unique. Or, just stuff the LS2 in both, save some money and have 2 badass cars.
Umm, the Z28 was more extream then the SS back in 67? So a 375hp 396 4spd SS was less extream then a Z28 with a 290hp(underated i know) 302?

The SS is Chevy's new peformance moniker and its only right that the top of the line camaro is the SS. [/b][/quote]
Considering the SS was the all around performer. SS on any car, wheither it be an Impala, Chevelle, Nova, or Camaro meant move over. It had the bigger engines, better suspension and nicer trimings.

The Z28 came out to go head to head against the Mustang that dominated the SCCA and road course races. It had a small displacement because the regulations of that era said nothing bigger than 302 cubes. This was much like NASCAR. With that whole specialty, we had the Z28 vs the Mustang and Dodge Challenger.

The mid/late 70's dropped the SS moniker, and Z28 was the top dog. It was made to do it all, just as the SS had. Although we got models like the IROC-Z, nothing had make quite the impact the SS made for in your face performance, all the while being luxurious and refined... well, as much as a Chevrolet could be I suppose.

The same with the Trans Am. It was brought to us the same as the Z28, and over the years had evolved into the 1/4 mile terror that everyone thinks of when they hear Trans Am..
 

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What I would really like for the next camaro would be options. Just like in the 60's and 70's. There should be four basic models (Camaro, RS, Z28, and SS). At least two V6 and V8's to choose from. All with different displacements. The camaro will come in plain trim and the other models will have their own standard apperence package, but can be changed upon request. Apperence packages should include hoods, spoilers, groung effects, and wheels. Just my $.02
 

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Too many engine choices for the Z28 and SS models means a slow stigma in the future. Look at the 3rd gens. More often than not, they are the junk 305's, like the LG4 4bbl or LO3 TBI. If more of the IROC-Z's had the L98, they wouldn't have the slow stigma that many people associate with that era. At least they wised up for the 91/92 model years.
 

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I agree with the lots of options thing. That would rule, and should be cost effective with the more computer controlled assembly processes used now. I am strongly in favor of AWD as an option. How awesome would it be to take your 400+ horsepower car to an SCCA rally event? And put the boot to the WRX's and EVO's of the world? That would rule. Now if we could only have it on a 'Vette..hehehe.

Well anyway, as long as it's around 33-3400 lbs., and has ~400 HP and a fat torque curve I'll buy it for 25-30k. It's a simple formula and works.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Originally posted by demonspeed@Jan 10 2004, 04:14 PM
Too many engine choices for the Z28 and SS models means a slow stigma in the future. Look at the 3rd gens. More often than not, they are the junk 305's, like the LG4 4bbl or LO3 TBI. If more of the IROC-Z's had the L98, they wouldn't have the slow stigma that many people associate with that era. At least they wised up for the 91/92 model years.
:angry: :angry: :angry: :mrt:


LB9's were fast for its day too. At lest with the 5spd.

But third gens sold many cars, over 100k(even 200k) almost ever year for just teh camaro(90 was a short year). It gave people a wide range of choises, and it sold very well. Not to mention, was one sweet looking ride!! :woot2:

5th gens should be based off teh first 3 gens, not the 4th gen. All went down hill with teh 4th gens....
 
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