[steve333]

Toyota offers a full suite of vehicles, including a small compact sedan that Run Away Mary decided would take too much effort to compete against. Mazda, Hyundai, Kia, Honda, Volkswagon, Subaru, Nissan all decided to compete.
GM is an embarrassment to the American ethos. I would include Ford as well but they are killing it with new affordable small trucks and SUVs

 

[mgescuro]

Toyota offers a full suite of vehicles, including a small compact sedan that Run Away Mary decided would take too much effort to compete against. Mazda, Hyundai, Kia, Honda, Volkswagon, Subaru, Nissan all decided to compete.
GM is an embarrassment to the American ethos. I would include Ford as well but they are killing it with new affordable small trucks and SUVs

And you know why?
Because GM can’t build a cost competitive compact car because (supposedly) “no one buys them.” And yet… Civic, Corolla, Forte, Golf, all seem to do just fine.
GM has never been able to find a niche in the market to gain a foothold. Why? Because GM’s mentality is “small cars are meant to be cheap.” Whereas the competition makes “small cars that are competent vehicles.”
The last solid attempt by GM was Saturn…. And they fumbled that ball too.

So GM leans on their Korean counterparts to provide compacts. So what we end up with are Korean-looking cars that really don’t have significant market acceptance or recognition. It might work for the Korean market, but that’s it.

Also, GM doesn’t spend time improving on designs And focusing on efficient, refine 4 cylinder engines. So, even if they have a good design, in 2 years, it hasn’t improved. THen in 4 years, it still hasn’t really been improved. Then in 6 years, sales collapse, and GM says “no one buys compact cars.”

This same scenario holds for mid-sizers as well. While Accord, Camry, and Sonata continue to be improved over time, GM doesn’t. And if it does, the value proposition doesn’t hold. Nor do quality numbers. Or technology. Or refinement. Or efficiency. Yes. Maybe the initial MSPR is lower. But the value and longevity simply isn’t there.

That’s why GM struggles.
And that’s why I say going EV isn’t going to solve all GM’s problems.

 

[steve333]

And you know why?
Because GM can’t build a cost competitive compact car because (supposedly) “no one buys them.” And yet… Civic, Corolla, Forte, Golf, all seem to do just fine.
GM has never been able to find a niche in the market to gain a foothold. Why? Because GM’s mentality is “small cars are meant to be cheap.” Whereas the competition makes “small cars that are competent vehicles.”
The last solid attempt by GM was Saturn…. And they fumbled that ball too.

So GM leans on their Korean counterparts to provide compacts. So what we end up with are Korean-looking cars that really don’t have significant market acceptance or recognition. It might work for the Korean market, but that’s it.

Also, GM doesn’t spend time improving on designs And focusing on efficient, refine 4 cylinder engines. So, even if they have a good design, in 2 years, it hasn’t improved. THen in 4 years, it still hasn’t really been improved. Then in 6 years, sales collapse, and GM says “no one buys compact cars.”

This same scenario holds for mid-sizers as well. While Accord, Camry, and Sonata continue to be improved over time, GM doesn’t. And if it does, the value proposition doesn’t hold. Nor do quality numbers. Or technology. Or refinement. Or efficiency. Yes. Maybe the initial MSPR is lower. But the value and longevity simply isn’t there.

That’s why GM struggles.
And that’s why I say going EV isn’t going to solve all GM’s problems.

Yup, that's the issue. The Second Gen Cruze wasn't a bad car, just needed some improvements and a little advertising. That was too much for Mary to handle. Pathetic

 

[1958carnut]

And you know why?
Because GM can’t build a cost competitive compact car because (supposedly) “no one buys them.” And yet… Civic, Corolla, Forte, Golf, all seem to do just fine.
GM has never been able to find a niche in the market to gain a foothold. Why? Because GM’s mentality is “small cars are meant to be cheap.” Whereas the competition makes “small cars that are competent vehicles.”
The last solid attempt by GM was Saturn…. And they fumbled that ball too.

So GM leans on their Korean counterparts to provide compacts. So what we end up with are Korean-looking cars that really don’t have significant market acceptance or recognition. It might work for the Korean market, but that’s it.

Also, GM doesn’t spend time improving on designs And focusing on efficient, refine 4 cylinder engines. So, even if they have a good design, in 2 years, it hasn’t improved. THen in 4 years, it still hasn’t really been improved. Then in 6 years, sales collapse, and GM says “no one buys compact cars.”

This same scenario holds for mid-sizers as well. While Accord, Camry, and Sonata continue to be improved over time, GM doesn’t. And if it does, the value proposition doesn’t hold. Nor do quality numbers. Or technology. Or refinement. Or efficiency. Yes. Maybe the initial MSPR is lower. But the value and longevity simply isn’t there.

That’s why GM struggles.
And that’s why I say going EV isn’t going to solve all GM’s problems.

Exactly right. I was at the dealer yesterday getting the Equinox serviced and looking at things there while waiting, and thinking this: That the Malibu was a half hearted attempt and now they seem to be letting it grow stale... whilst we await upcoming(if any) electric products.

 

[mgescuro]

Exactly right. I was at the dealer yesterday getting the Equinox serviced and looking at things there while waiting, and thinking this: That the Malibu was a half hearted attempt and now they seem to be letting it grow stale... whilst we await upcoming(if any) electric products.

Malibu had a lot of promise.
But it's gotten stale. And it's not refined compared to the competition. It doesn't need a full revamp, just subtle improvements over time, and it really doesn't get that. It gets features... but that's not refinements.

So if there is a Malibu EV. Great. In 2 years, will it start to get stale too? I hope not, but if history is any judge....

And the other thing is stuff like Buick Verano Pro in China.
Does GM not believe there's a market for THAT in the US? Come on...

 

[09W]

So... if a car can possibly get stale in "2 years", it must require upgrades & updates every. single. year.

 

[1958carnut]

Malibu had a lot of promise.
But it's gotten stale. And it's not refined compared to the competition. It doesn't need a full revamp, just subtle improvements over time, and it really doesn't get that. It gets features... but that's not refinements.

So if there is a Malibu EV. Great. In 2 years, will it start to get stale too? I hope not, but if history is any judge....

And the other thing is stuff like Buick Verano Pro in China.
Does GM not believe there's a market for THAT in the US? Come on...

That Buick Verano Pro is the one thing China has that In wish gm would bring over but then as you say, what they do with it after the fact is the real issue.

 

[Greg Burr]

So... if a car can possibly get stale in "2 years", it must require upgrades & updates every. single. year.

planned obsolescence. maybe transition to subscription model

 

[mbukukanyau]

And you know why?
Because GM can’t build a cost competitive compact car because (supposedly) “no one buys them.” And yet… Civic, Corolla, Forte, Golf, all seem to do just fine.
GM has never been able to find a niche in the market to gain a foothold. Why? Because GM’s mentality is “small cars are meant to be cheap.” Whereas the competition makes “small cars that are competent vehicles.”
The last solid attempt by GM was Saturn…. And they fumbled that ball too.

So GM leans on their Korean counterparts to provide compacts. So what we end up with are Korean-looking cars that really don’t have significant market acceptance or recognition. It might work for the Korean market, but that’s it.

Also, GM doesn’t spend time improving on designs And focusing on efficient, refine 4 cylinder engines. So, even if they have a good design, in 2 years, it hasn’t improved. THen in 4 years, it still hasn’t really been improved. Then in 6 years, sales collapse, and GM says “no one buys compact cars.”

This same scenario holds for mid-sizers as well. While Accord, Camry, and Sonata continue to be improved over time, GM doesn’t. And if it does, the value proposition doesn’t hold. Nor do quality numbers. Or technology. Or refinement. Or efficiency. Yes. Maybe the initial MSPR is lower. But the value and longevity simply isn’t there.

That’s why GM struggles.
And that’s why I say going EV isn’t going to solve all GM’s problems.

You know why, GM had profitable small platforms that they replaced with new platforms instead of updating for price and technology, erasing profitability.
So did Ford.
Toyota keeps small car platforms for decades, doing small updates to keep them relevant.
Its genius

 

[Ruperts Trooper]

You know why, GM had profitable small platforms that they replaced with new platforms instead of updating for price and technology, erasing profitability.
So did Ford.
Toyota keeps small car platforms for decades, doing small updates to keep them relevant.
Its genius

Were these the same GM small car platforms that had been engineered by Opel but GM accounting made Opel trade at a loss?

 

[damnitgmi]

Were these the same GM small car platforms that had been engineered by Opel but GM accounting made Opel trade at a loss?

The funny thing is that since GM sold Opel they are doing fine on small platforms in their home market under PSA/Stellantis. Currently Opel's smallest car the Corsa is not only the best selling car in its class, in November it is also Germany's best selling car overall. After decades of fighting for the pole position in this class the Corsa finally beats the VW Polo. Unlike the Polo that isn't available as a BEV, 25% of the Corsa sales are for the electric version in Germany. In the SUV B segment the new released Mokka gained the second spot in his class. With 30% the BEV numbers for the Mokka are even better compared to the Corsa, even the share the same platform and powertrain.

Overall Opel is increasing it market share in Europe biggest market. Currently It is also the best performing German brand. I'm curious how the new Opel Astra will perform after he goes on sale in January/February.

 

[gkr778]

And the other thing is stuff like Buick Verano Pro in China.
Does GM not believe there's a market for THAT in the US? Come on...

That Buick Verano Pro is the one thing China has that In wish gm would bring over but then as you say, what they do with it after the fact is the real issue.

Here are photos of China domestic market Buick Verano Pro:

 

[dannyg]

Here are photos of China domestic market Buick Verano Pro:

Nice looking car, it also comes with the Mild Hybrid system that you can't get in the US.

Buick Debuts All-New Envision Plus and Verano Pro in China

SHANGHAI – Buick’s all-new Envision Plus midsize SUV and Verano Pro premium family sedan made their global debut this evening at 2021 Buick Brand Day in Shanghai. Both models will be appearing on the Buick stand at Auto Shanghai 2021, which begins tomorrow.

media.buick.com

 

[Ruperts Trooper]

The funny thing is that since GM sold Opel they are doing fine on small platforms in their home market under PSA/Stellantis. Currently Opel's smallest car the Corsa is not only the best selling car in its class, in November it is also Germany's best selling car overall. After decades of fighting for the pole position in this class the Corsa finally beats the VW Polo. Unlike the Polo that isn't available as a BEV, 25% of the Corsa sales are for the electric version in Germany. In the SUV B segment the new released Mokka gained the second spot in his class. With 30% the BEV numbers for the Mokka are even better compared to the Corsa, even the share the same platform and powertrain.

Overall Opel is increasing it market share in Europe biggest market. Currently It is also the best performing German brand. I'm curious how the new Opel Astra will perform after he goes on sale in January/February.

Opel/Vauxhall didn't use a GM platform for the Corsa after 2006 - they switched it to the Fiat SCCS platform, available under the GM-Fiat Alliance and more recently to PSA's EMP1 platform..

The Gamma platform, itself a development of the GM4200 platform developed by Opel in 1982, has been further developed by GM Korea as Gamma II but as a 40-year old platform, it's showing its age!

 

[VS Ute 5Litre]

Opel/Vauxhall didn't use a GM platform for the Corsa after 2006 - they switched it to the Fiat SCCS platform, available under the GM-Fiat Alliance and more recently to PSA's EMP1 platform..

The Gamma platform, itself a development of the GM4200 platform developed by Opel in 1982, has been further developed by GM Korea as Gamma II but as a 40-year old platform, it's showing its age!

But but but


I thought only Toyota used platforms for decades?

 

[InCogKneeToe]

Toyonda understand (as GM and Ford once did) that not everyone Starts Auto Ownership Life in $50,000+ SUVs. They start out Entry Level, Colledge Rides. Then comes Fun Vehicles, Family Vehicles, Tow/Lifestyle Vehicles and Finally Luxo Cruisers. It all Starts with Entry Level's introduction to the Brand.

Used to be Chevy to Pontiac/Olds to GMC to Buick then Caddilac.

Toyo is Corolla, Camary, Seinna, Tundra, 4 Runner, Lexus.

Brand Loyality all starts at the Corolla.

 

[1958carnut]

Toyonda understand (as GM and Ford once did) that not everyone Starts Auto Ownership Life in $50,000+ SUVs. They start out Entry Level, Colledge Rides. Then comes Fun Vehicles, Family Vehicles, Tow/Lifestyle Vehicles and Finally Luxo Cruisers. It all Starts with Entry Level's introduction to the Brand.

Used to be Chevy to Pontiac/Olds to GMC to Buick then Caddilac.

Toyo is Corolla, Camary, Seinna, Tundra, 4 Runner, Lexus.

Brand Loyality all starts at the Corolla.

Yup. And Chevy/gm fails at that level with a half baked Cruze and Trax that never got improvements needed then dropped, and all sorts of excuses being spewed forth from the lips of the big hairs at lowercase gm.

 

[richmond2000]

Opel/Vauxhall didn't use a GM platform for the Corsa after 2006 - they switched it to the Fiat SCCS platform, available under the GM-Fiat Alliance and more recently to PSA's EMP1 platform..

The Gamma platform, itself a development of the GM4200 platform developed by Opel in 1982, has been further developed by GM Korea as Gamma II but as a 40-year old platform, it's showing its age!

even with an "old" platform Opel had to cover 100% of the R/D for Euro market vehicles VS Stellantis already has "ready to go" vehicles that only need "Opel-ization" cutting down on the R/D budget

globally Toyota will sell a LOT MORE echo's then GM ever would of Sparks not to mention GM gets "pushback" if it is NOT built in a Union shop in AMERICA VS Toyota is "free" to use ANY low cost plant anywhere they choose and being in ASIA is seen as a good thing

FORD needed ONE FORD to work and has MOSTLY made it stick