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You still don't see the forest from the trees huh?

Yes. The Blackwing is a great product. But it is a branding disaster.
Cadillac blew up what the V stood for. V has always been the top performance line. V-Sport was the mild-performance line/body package. Why reverse that? Why make the V the new mild performance line. And introduce V Blackwing as the top performance line? And why Blackwing, since the engine is 1) dead and 2) not in the Blackwings?
It reeks of "we spent all this money on a Blackwing trademark to not use it, so let's use it."

Yeah. It's a great product. I don't argue that point. But it has a disastrous trail of confusion behind it. There's no consistency into what anything means. How laughable is this gonna be when a "Celestiq V Blackwing" shows up?! It probably won't because none of this makes any sense for the EV world. And the consistency of a lack of consistency continues.

GM's abrupt product shifts at Cadillac have left it weak and with product that is inconsistent and unworthy of being in the lineup. GM has never allowed Cadillac the time, patience, or money to execute properly, and they don't see the value of the Cadillac brand. They've proven as much.

And it's the same story at Saturn. Strange product shifts. Inability to get the correct product on time. And wasting all of the goodwill the brandy have earned.
Today's Cadillac should really be Pontiac...The real Cadillac today should have been what were the concept cars just a few years ago. If GM really stuck to "not acting like GM", then they would be selling more cars, trucks, SUVs you name it.

Instead, much like Saturn, GM takes the "safe" route ensuring management gets guaranteed pay, but, as a result muting short term sales and pooping away future competitiveness.

Saturn's only failure was that it was the anti-GM within GM. Many GM'ers hated Saturn for that and wanted to ensure their failure. They succeed at that--too bad they didn't use that energy on actually making EV-1 an actual car people can buy at scale...
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Today's Cadillac should really be Pontiac...The real Cadillac today should have been what were the concept cars just a few years ago. If GM really stuck to "not acting like GM", then they would be selling more cars, trucks, SUVs you name it.

Instead, much like Saturn, GM takes the "safe" route ensuring management gets guaranteed pay, but, as a result muting short term sales and pooping away future competitiveness.

Saturn's only failure was that it was the anti-GM within GM. Many GM'ers hated Saturn for that and wanted to ensure their failure. They succeed at that--too bad they didn't use that energy on actually making EV-1 an actual car people can buy at scale...
Pontiac succumb to GM Politics, just as Saturn did.

Saturn was a "Different type of Car Company, and a Different type of Car" until GM Politics got involved and Badge Engineered the Life out of it. Crappy U Van, (Montana) Crappy Vue (Equinox) rebadges. We won't even get into the EV1 fiasco.

GM's Badge Engineering Killed Saturn, it was no longer a "Different Type of Car" Just the same old Junk from the same old Company. All of GM's former efforts into building a sustainable Small Car offering, thrown away.

I totally get the "Why are we buying 8 Different Fan Motors" but it is when 8 Different Seats/Steering Wheels/Rims/Tires/Dash Boards and everything the Consumer sees, that is money Well Spent! Why would I pay extra for a Saab when a Saturn offers everything?

And GM knew this, over and over again! (Cimarron) Experiment proved it well. The Competition amongst it's own Brands worked and worked well once upon a time. Think GTO, Buick Rivera, Monte Carlo, GNX, Hurst Olds, to name a few. But it slowly got squeezed out example the X Bodied Cars. And Chevy always had to have the 1 Up (Corvette) and the 1 below (price wise) and everything in between. Kind of explains a 2000 Malibu, the same price as a 2000 Impala, then lets add these Daewoo's that we just purchased at pennies on the dollar.
 

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I was a big fan of Saturn. It was great until the old hidebound ways were brought in. Perhaps it embarrassed too many elsewhere at GM.. They actually were making competitive care right off the bat. Even CR liked them
I always thought that in its early years that they sort of put the rest of gm to shame.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
I always thought that in its early years that they sort of put the rest of gm to shame.
I wouldn't say they "Put the Rest to Shame" but they were "Different" not only they Way they did business, but the Vehicles also.

GM has fumbled the Entry Level Market, well since the "Entry Level Market" was formulated with the Mustang. Mustang being a Fun Comet/Falcon.
 

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I was a big fan of Saturn. It was great until the old hidebound ways were brought in. Perhaps it embarrassed too many elsewhere at GM.. They actually were making competitive care right off the bat. Even CR liked them
My sister had bought a Saturn, I went with her and test drove a coupe with a stick. It was a lot of fun and worlds better than my '89 Cavalier Z24 - it was slick, like a Japanese car. And the sales experience was nice too! I almost traded in my Z24 for the Saturn.
 

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You still don't see the forest from the trees huh?

Yes. The Blackwing is a great product. But it is a branding disaster.
Cadillac blew up what the V stood for. V has always been the top performance line. V-Sport was the mild-performance line/body package. Why reverse that? Why make the V the new mild performance line. And introduce V Blackwing as the top performance line? And why Blackwing, since the engine is 1) dead and 2) not in the Blackwings?
It reeks of "we spent all this money on a Blackwing trademark to not use it, so let's use it."

Yeah. It's a great product. I don't argue that point. But it has a disastrous trail of confusion behind it. There's no consistency into what anything means. How laughable is this gonna be when a "Celestiq V Blackwing" shows up?! It probably won't because none of this makes any sense for the EV world. And the consistency of a lack of consistency continues.

GM's abrupt product shifts at Cadillac have left it weak and with product that is inconsistent and unworthy of being in the lineup. GM has never allowed Cadillac the time, patience, or money to execute properly, and they don't see the value of the Cadillac brand. They've proven as much.

And it's the same story at Saturn. Strange product shifts. Inability to get the correct product on time. And wasting all of the goodwill the brandy have earned.
I think the change on the V was a good move. The V before was out of reach for most people money wise. Now its more attainable, but it still has a performance degree to it. Unfortunately...sedans just aren't movers anymore and with electric cars on the horizon, this is the last hurrah for the v-models as we know them.
 

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I think the change on the V was a good move. The V before was out of reach for most people money wise. Now its more attainable, but it still has a performance degree to it. Unfortunately...sedans just aren't movers anymore and with electric cars on the horizon, this is the last hurrah for the v-models as we know them.
I agree, it was a good expansion of the line and hasn't confused anyone who will actually buy a V or a V Blackwing. I suspect it is only an issue for people who will never buy one with or without a branding change.
 

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I agree, it was a good expansion of the line and hasn't confused anyone who will actually buy a V or a V Blackwing. I suspect it is only an issue for people who will never buy one with or without a branding change.

Exactly. It's like me pointing out issues that I have with current styling tends on Ferraris.
 
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I always thought that in its early years that they sort of put the rest of gm to shame.
I think people often look back fondly on things that don't exist anymore. More fondly than those things ever deserved.

The original Saturn coupe and sedan were adequate cars, nothing special. The sedan certainly wasn't winning any beauty contests. Saturn's early days were a combination of brilliant marketing and first-rate customer service. They managed to build a loyal community of buyers. It was a little like Tesla in that Saturn could do no wrong by those people.

I'm a GM guy (yeah, I always considereed Saturn to be part of GM) but objectively, those original cars did not measure up all that well to the Civics and Corollas of the day. IMO, Saturn's best vehicles - by far and away - were in the last lineup: Aura, SKY, Outlook. And yeah, there was platform sharing. But Aura was a real nice car and the Malibu followed it, not the other way around. SKY looked completely different than Solstice, and Outlook might have been the best Lambda. Even the 2nd gen VUE was a rather nice CUV that was at the time unique to Saturn. Unfortunately, the 2008 crash came along and wiped out what I thought was a promising future.
 
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I think the change on the V was a good move. The V before was out of reach for most people money wise. Now its more attainable, but it still has a performance degree to it. Unfortunately...sedans just aren't movers anymore and with electric cars on the horizon, this is the last hurrah for the v-models as we know them.
The V's are supposed to be out of reach.
And if you don't have the money, what the hell are you doing buying a luxury car in the first place?

The problem with this argument is that the V-Blackwings also remain "out of reach." And these would have been V's anyways. What are V's now are simply former V-Sports — The more "attainable" version.

This is simply no way to run a luxury brand.


Finally, this better not be the last hurrah for the V's. BMW and Mercedes have no intention of getting rid of M and AMG models. Why should Cadillac kill of the V?[/b]
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
I think people often look back fondly on things that don't exist anymore. More fondly than those things ever deserved.

The original Saturn coupe and sedan were adequate cars, nothing special. The sedan certainly wasn't winning any beauty contests. Saturn's early days were a combination of brilliant marketing and first-rate customer service. They managed to build a loyal community of buyers. It was a little like Tesla in that Saturn could do no wrong by those people.

I'm a GM guy (yeah, I always considereed Saturn to be part of GM) but objectively, those original cars did not measure up all that well to the Civics and Corollas of the day. IMO, Saturn's best vehicles - by far and away - were in the last lineup: Aura, SKY, Outlook. And yeah, there was platform sharing. But Aura was a real nice car and the Malibu followed it, not the other way around. SKY looked completely different than Solstice, and Outlook might have been the best Lambda. Even the 2nd gen VUE was a rather nice CUV that was at the time unique to Saturn. Unfortunately, the 2008 crash came along and wiped out what I thought was a promising future.
I think that you are comparing Early Saturn to same era Honda/Toyotas, and later Saturn to same era GM's. Look at them the otherway.

Early Era Saturn were much above that Era of small GM's, it is true that the Asians built better cars in that size and time, but Saturn had the best NA car of that size and time.

Later Saturn, were on par with GM's because they were GM's. GM's product was close to on par with the Asians, but now we are in the Camry/Accord/CRV class. No longer the Civic/Corolla class.

The whole GM Experiment had been wasted. That being, "Can we build a Small Car that people want?" "That will make people Loyal and want their next car (bigger) to be that Brand?" "Can a Brand be profitable, by losing money from spending money on quality on it's Entry Level product and make up for it on Mid and Upper Level product?"

Conquest Sales, and First Time Buyers, was what it was about. It is just that GM Hooked the hose up on 1 end, and left the other end to drain out on the ground.
 

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And what may I ask is wrong with Ferrari design?
Nothing. Just pointing out that me complaining about it is like the people whining about Cadillac's V Series. Like them not being potential V customers, I'm not buying a Ferrari.
 
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The entire Saturn division was a mistake, and GM should have just redesigned the J car by this time. GM wasted so much money during this time - too many new platforms (1980 X, 1982 A and J, 1985 C and N, 1986 H and E/K, 1987 L, 1988 W, 1991 Saturn) when it should have just developed two platforms - small and mid-size/large.
 

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The entire Saturn division was a mistake, and GM should have just redesigned the J car by this time. GM wasted so much money during this time - too many new platforms (1980 X, 1982 A and J, 1985 C and N, 1986 H and E/K, 1987 L, 1988 W, 1991 Saturn) when it should have just developed two platforms - small and mid-size/large.
About the too many platforms, GM IMO should've done what Ford and Chrysler did, consolidate platforms.
 
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