GM'S BAS hybrid systems vindicated : Toyota now planning a mild hybrid.

4238 Views 32 Replies 20 Participants Last post by packardlust, Jun 13, 2008

AMERICA 123

Discussion Starter · Jun 12, 2008 (Edited)

http://www.hybridcars.com/carmakers/toyota-plans-two-new-hybrids-0611.html

Short PR type release although lots of info - at the link.

Actually four vehicle or three/four vehicle programs are mentioned.

Three with Ni H for 2009 - including the new Prius, and a fourth PHEV with Li ion for 2010.

Seems to possibly contradict some earlier recent announcements or clear them up or who the hell knows at this point - maybe like in Australia, it depends on whose doin' the talkin'.

Li ion now seems a little further out - at least for these three.

Toyota Plans Two New Hybrids

Published June 11, 2008

The Toyota Hybrid X concept, which debuted at the 2007 Geneva International Motor Show, was intended to “create a new design language for hybrid models.”

Today, the company announced two new hybrid models in the works.

Toyota also announced new 1.3-liter and 2.5-liter gasoline engines using stop-start technology to debut later this year, according to company statement.

This would mark Toyota’s first venture into a mild hybrid system.

So far, all of Toyota’s hybrids are full hybrids, providing the capability to launch forward without using gasoline.

Stop-start hybrids, which don't burn gas when the vehicle comes to a stop, yield fuel efficiency gains of about 10 percent compared to conventional models.

Perhaps start stop is assumed to be with a battery ?????

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AMERICA 123

Discussion Starter · #2 · Jun 12, 2008 (Edited)

Re: Hybrid PR War Continues: Is Toyota now planning a mild hybrid ?

Here's more and related.

Long press release. - this isn't even a 1/4.

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/08/0611.html

June 11, 2008

Toyota Strengthens Initiatives for Low Carbon Society

—Toyota Environmental Forum Held in Tokyo—
Tokyo — TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION (TMC) unveiled today an action plan - .................

Specific TMC plans are described below.

1. Research and Development

Powertrains
Average fuel efficiency for new Toyota vehicles sold in Japan rose by approximately 28% in the 10 years from 1997 to 2007. By the end of 2010 TMC will complete transition to a new series of highly efficient engines and transmissions.

Gasoline Engines
TMC will complete revamping its engine lineup, with new 1.3-liter and 2.5-liter engines introduced in 2008. The new 1.3-liter gasoline engine is equipped with the newly developed TOYOTA Stop&Start SYSTEM.

Diesel Engines
In 2003, TMC introduced clean diesel engines featuring the Diesel Particulate-NOx Reduction system, and, in the fall of 2007, it introduced a new 4.5-liter V8 engine. Cumulative production of diesel engines passed the 20 million mark in February 2008.

Transmissions
While advancing multi-stage automatic transmissions and continuously variable transmissions, TMC will introduce a highly efficient compact six-speed manual transmission in the fall of 2008.

Hybrid Vehicles
Hybrid systems are a core Toyota technology that can contribute to cleaner emissions, lower CO2 emissions and increased fuel efficiency. TMC is actively working to popularize these systems by increasing the number of hybrid models among its vehicle series. -

TMC's aim is to achieve hybrid vehicle sales of 1 million vehicles annually as early in the 2010s as possible and to strive for further popularization.

TMC is working to further reduce the size, weight and cost of motors, inverters, batteries and other hybrid system components.

In addition to already producing hybrid vehicles in China and the United States, TMC recently decided to produce hybrid vehicles in Thailand and Australia. We intend to continue to expand our overseas hybrid vehicle production efforts.

Alternative Fuel Vehicles
Flexible Fuel Vehicles*2
Bio-fuel Flexible Fuel Vehicles
In 2006, TMC adapted all of its vehicles sold worldwide to E10 fuel and in May 2007 introduced flexible-fuel "Corolla" models in Brazil that can run on E100.

TMC will introduce the E85-compatible flexible-fuel Tundra and Sequoia in North America in 2008.
*2. Vehicles that are specially designed to run on either gasoline alone or on a blend of gasoline and ethanol

Electricity (Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles/Electric Vehicles)
Verification tests are currently being conducted in Japan, the United States and Europe, as plug-in hybrid vehicles—which can be used as electric vehicles for short trips and as conventional hybrid vehicles for traveling longer distances—represent the most promising approach.

By 2010, TMC will introduce a plug-in hybrid vehicle equipped with a lithium-ion battery, geared toward fleet customers in Japan, United States and Europe.

TMC plans to accelerate development of small electric vehicles for mass production.

Battery R&D and Production

TMC will establish in late June 2008 a battery research department to advance the development of an innovative next-generation battery that can outperform a lithium-ion battery.

Panasonic EV Energy Co., Ltd., a joint venture TMC established with the Matsu****a Group that is conducting joint research on batteries for use in automobiles, will commence limited production of lithium-ion batteries in 2009, moving into full-scale production in 2010. -

Alternative Fuel Supplies
TMC's involvement in alternative fuel utilization includes a variety of initiatives aimed at ensuring fuel supplies.

TMC is reinforcing its structure of survey-based global energy analysis by establishing energy research organizations in Japan and the United States.

TMC is conducting research on a cellulosic ethanol that can both avert competition with food supplies and ensure a stable supply. The distinctive feature of TMC's research is the focus on using technologies that involve yeast.

TMC is conducting joint research with Nippon Oil Corporation on high-concentration bio hydrofined diesel (also known as "BHD") as a bio-fuel alternative to petroleum-based diesel. So far, the research has led to vast improvement in the oxidative stability of BHD, enabling the fuel to perform on par with conventional diesel.

TMC is conducting research on biomass-to-liquid (also known as "BTL"), which is derived from synthesizing gas made from all types of biomass, including cellulose.

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AMERICA 123

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jun 12, 2008 (Edited)

Re: Hybrid PR War Continues: Is Toyota now planning a mild hybrid ?

K-1 said:
Wow - a Start-Stop system from Toyota? How innovative! If only stupid, dinosaur GM could have thought of this first... oh wait...

Yes its more than a little 'sweetly ironic' - some of the Pri people musta' choked on their Lattes this morning - more than once as they read this.

The bigger press release from Japan if you go to the link and see the whole thing looks like they're feeling GM's PR concerning the VOLT and Honda concerning some similiar and different stuff.

Just look at how little new news they have to say outside of the hybrids - the diesel section has virtually nothing in it and the transmission news is a vague reference to a 6 speed MT.

What is usable is that the next three including the new Prius will not be Li ion, and when the first one of those does show up ( PHEV included ) in 2010 it will be a very limited affair - really justa' glorified street fleet 'test' program - or at least they're prepping you for it if it happens that way.

Then the mild hybrid news - what that says is enormous - about HSD - and HSDs future - also costs and cost effectiveness, future profitability, etc.

It may even be shedding some light on their current lack of batteries - and why what appears to have been a scheduled reduction in production made last year happened - when other things started to cut into profitability - oops there goes the hybrid subsidy funds.

GM had it right all along.

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AMERICA 123

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jun 12, 2008 (Edited)

Re: Hybrid PR War Continues: Is Toyota now planning a mild hybrid ?

Yes it would, but it doesn't appear likely - Toyota has a very high profitability standard and very strong discipline about that - so unless a buncha' stuff goes back the way it was (which isn't likely) - internally subsidized hybrids have less per unit to play with - especially if you really start ramping up seriously large volume.

Toyota is a certain kind of gutsy player - they are most assuredly are NOT a certain kinda' stupid either.

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AMERICA 123

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jun 12, 2008

Re: Hybrid PR War Continues: Is Toyota now planning a mild hybrid ?

- Even without a battery - and /or ala BMW.

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AMERICA 123

Discussion Starter · #17 · Jun 12, 2008

Re: Hybrid PR War Continues: Is Toyota now planning a mild hybrid ?

You may have seen a 'mule' or a 'mule train'.

In certain locations and 'routes' from time to time its not that uncommon . - almost always at least 1/2 the stuff they cram in there is related to temperature measurements here there and eveywhere.

The big screen is probably for engineering purposes - like real world data collection and related.

Toyota has a significant Engineering center in Ann Arbor Michigan - that could be why the Mi plate.

Possibly running between Arizona and Michigan.

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Discussion Starter · #21 · Jun 12, 2008

Re: Hybrid PR War Continues: Is Toyota now planning a mild hybrid ?

ericmvest said:
This will vindicate General Motors decision to pursue BAS along with many other fuel saving technologies.

The BAS tweaks General Motors is working on for next model year discussed in another recent thread make this technology very attractive particularly for city driving.

BAS II will probably be another significant improvement.

Other threads have stated that even the current BAS gets significantly better real world miles per gallon than the EPA estimates.

The many people who were highly critical of BAS may be proven wrong in just the next few years.

So true. In fact you've inspired a change in title.

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AMERICA 123

Discussion Starter · #26 · Jun 13, 2008 (Edited)

Realist said:
So ... if Toyota isn't calling it a mild hybrid, why does the topic title imply that, just wondering.

Because some of us would rather think for ourselves , live in a country where you can still make some choices, can recognize an appropriate use of the slang substitution term 'mild hybrid' , and consider 'stop start' already taken by BMW, a much better company with a better pedigree and product that we like owning and supporting - so I'M SOMEWHAT ARBITARILY keeping that one for them - they had it first.

BTW, Toyota has never invented much of anything anyway - including the word 'Toyota' so basically WGAS what Toyota calls it - I wanted to make damn sure people understood its a mild hybrid and not HSD, and that it vindicates GM's mild hybrid programs AKA BAS.

I also wanted to make clear that once again, Toyota is following GM - in one of the hybrid technologies that currently make the most sense.

See how simple it is if you just ask an intelligent question???

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