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Tesla sold ~194,000 based on registrations, I'd put money that it's pretty close.

(BMW sold 279,000 in the US)




When the manufacturer doesn't report, some people just make stuff up, clearly the case here, 293K in the US!?

- Not even close! 馃ぃ

I keep seeing GCBC data being quoted, it's grossly wrong almost every-time I double-check the numbers.
Where did the extra 100k go then?? GCBC uses registration data too, correct?
 

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Where did the extra 100k go then?? GCBC uses registration data too, correct?
The GCBC data is probably bad...not sure how they got to the 200k number, but CarSalesBase is reporting 160k, but if Ed's registration data puts it at 96k....then perhaps that's a closer number. Regardless, its still a higher number than what the Bolt moved in 2020. Until they can get a Malibu/Blazer sized 250mi EV out at under 40k, they'll never take off....I'll even settle for a Cruze/Equinox sized one in that neighborhood. Point is, Tesla is ripe for the taking with a proper product mix from GM, a $40,000 subcompact and a $100,000 supertruck that can rip off 2s 0-60 runs aint how you're going to take them down.
 

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It isn't that, criticism of the Bolts existence has NOTHING to do with it being from GM, its criticized because of what it is and how much they're trying to sell it for...When GM can deliver out a mass market EV that isn't sized like or looks like a ****box at a price close to its ICE counterpart, then they'll be taken seriously. As it sits right now, it's laughable that a subcompact B segment car is being sold for 31-35k...when you can get what is perceived as a trendy/luxury 3 series competitor for a few grand more.

What I find funny that saleswise the Bolt, in a year - at its very best, does what the 3 can do in a good month, there really shouldn't be a comparison. The Bolt is overpriced as it sits and needs to be priced somewhere in the 20s to be considered a good buy. Its why none of the mainstream subcompact EVs never took off, too little car for the money...either buy the ICE version for half the price or get a Tesla...and we see what is actually happening...buyers are doing both more than they're buying the Bolt.

Interesting times that we live in when a vehicle that can deliver 250 miles of EV power for $31K-$35K and be called "laughable." Before Tesla (and kudos to them for this), 250 miles of EV range was almost in the sci-fi realm.

Looks are subjective. There are people who like everything that comes from Tesla and hate everything from Chevy, no matter what they look like. And visa versa. I really like the Model S but the 3 is just an ugly cartoon. I like the bigger Bolt, pretty indifferent to the smaller.

The Model 3 is "trendy," no doubt. The people who preceive it as "luxury" may be among the most delusional people on the planet. Have you ever sat in one? I have. If you find someone who bought the Model 3 and tells you that they have a "luxury car," get out those order forms for oceanfront property in Indiana, because you've got on one the line there.

You're comparing the Bolt to ICE vehicles based on capacity and price and saying that's a terrible deal. Too little car for the money. Judging it like that, you're right. How does that not apply to a Model 3? Or really any Tesla? If you throw out the EV vs. ICE factor and just judge them no price and practicality, no Tesla is a smart purchase. Throw in quality considerations and the rationale behind the Tesla completely collapses.

The mileage vs. gasoline is amazing and all, but people who buy EVs aren't buying them to save money on gas. For most, gas money isn't a problem; if it was, they couldn't afford an EV. They may like the idea of spending less money on gas. They like having a car with the Tesla badge on it. They like telling people that they plug their cars in. They think not buying gas is cool. I have no problem with any of those reasons. I've driven a lot of cars in my life that weren't practical. In the cases of the ones that could be called practical, I could have bought something cheaper. We all have our motivations for what we buy and they're all good reasons because they're our reasons.. Buy what you want. My brother-in-law I think is a good example of an EV buyer. He's now owned two Volts, two Prius, a plug-in Clarity and now a plug-in Kia. He likes telling me how rarely he buys gasoline. He likes the technology, this from a guy who in the past had a Corvette, two Trans Ams, a 280ZX. Clearly he's not saving money on gas or anything else since he changes cars more often than some people change clothes.

What the paragraph above means is that Chevy has to find a way to make the Bolt seem cool. The point is to make money, so giving it away for $25K isn't an option; if they could, they would. I really do think the larger one could be a success because it has today's required CUV shape. How to make it cool and trendy is something that GM marketing, sadly, just isn't very good at.
 

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The Bolt is overpriced as it sits and needs to be priced somewhere in the 20s to be considered a good buy.
Consider getting a used one. 2017 Bolt with 20k miles on the odometer can easily be found for selling prices $15k or less. Not bad for one of the better GM cars of the modern era.
 
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Consider getting a used one. 2017 Bolt with 20k miles on the odometer can easily be found for selling prices $15k or less. Not bad for one of the better GM cars of the modern era.
Used or a cheap lease....only way I'd get one.

ksr: I do agree that it is a hell of a world where we can take a $13k ICE car, strip out its drivetrain & give it an EV underpinnings then suddenly its worth 20k more. I know Bolt isn't on Gamma, but damn, dim for dim, it sure as hell lines up with the Sonic a hell of a lot.

Sadly this world is mostly about perception, it is perceived as an econobox and will never get the following the Teslas get because of its form factor...seriously, look at this thing:

63227


and they wanted damn near 40 for this?!?!?! Glad to see the new one is lower in price but seriously it isn't there yet.

And yes, I sat in plenty Teslas, my last employer was the shipping line that did the "exports" from the mainland to Hawaii, I did a few site visits back in the day to assist with process mapping, so it afforded me some time to snoop around and check out the cars on terminal.

Re Luxury, the white interior is nice, Tesla's problem is their steering wheel looks/feels like ****, brings down the Model X and Model S where it's a little bit better, but the 3 where the only interior features are the screen and the wheel, it brings it kinda cheapens the whole interior, but it doesn't look mainstream...can't put a word to it, it's like an automotive iPhone, its viewed as a luxury item, but it really isn't much better IMO than anything else....it just IS.
 

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The Model 3 is "trendy," no doubt. The people who preceive it as "luxury" may be among the most delusional people on the planet. Have you ever sat in one? I have. If you find someone who bought the Model 3 and tells you that they have a "luxury car," get out those order forms for oceanfront property in Indiana, because you've got on one the line there.
I would argue no vehicle in the Model 3's price range is "luxury". Premium, perhaps, but not luxury. That said, IMO, people who claim Model 3 is a luxury have more ground to stand on than, say, people who would argue a C-class or a 3-series (much less an A-class or 1-series) is a luxury. For example, many could consider AP a luxury (after all, not having to drive is great for people who don't like to drive). Some might consider effortless acceleration with hardly any noise a luxury. Some might like the airy feel of the cabin (there are very few cars at any price with that much glass in the cabin, and very little clutter). Some might consider never having to get into a burning hot car after being parked in the sun, without even having to think about it, a luxury. Who knows... "luxury" is a very personal thing. Heck, I consider an afternoon nap a luxury these days...
 

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Where did the extra 100k go then?? GCBC uses registration data too, correct?
You would have to ask them both of those questions; Tesla, in the US sold in the 200K range, no ifs ands or buts.


Used or a cheap lease....only way I'd get one.

ksr: I do agree that it is a hell of a world where we can take a $13k ICE car, strip out its drivetrain & give it an EV underpinnings then suddenly its worth 20k more. I know Bolt isn't on Gamma, but damn, dim for dim, it sure as hell lines up with the Sonic a hell of a lot.

Sadly this world is mostly about perception, it is perceived as an econobox and will never get the following the Teslas get because of its form factor...seriously, look at this thing............
The Bolt is based on the Gamma................... Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

As I said previously, as popular cars like Trax, Trailblazer, Encore and Encore GX are the Bolt EUV has a fighting chance, especially when gas goes to $5.00/gallon, GM will be able to make a few buck on these things, while losing billions in lost Suburban sales, don't thank me, thank Joe Biden; GM is getting exactly what they wanted!
 

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You would have to ask them both of those questions; Tesla, in the US sold in the 200K range, no ifs ands or buts.




The Bolt is based on the Gamma................... Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

As I said previously, as popular cars like Trax, Trailblazer, Encore and Encore GX are the Bolt EUV has a fighting chance, especially when gas goes to $5.00/gallon, GM will be able to make a few buck on these things, while losing billions in lost Suburban sales, don't thank me, thank Joe Biden; GM is getting exactly what they wanted!
Yea, if gas goes sky high in the next two years, GM is just going to lose more money. The more they sell of the Bolt the more money they lose on them. Very weird situation.
 

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The Bolt is based on the Gamma................... Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Thanks Ed753! I've seen automotive industry publications state that "BEV2 is a unique platform" as well as that "BEV2 is Gamma influenced", and as a result thought that the relationship between Gamma and BEV2 was relatively minor.

Now I know better. :)
 

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I don't like that either. On the Bolts or the Model 3. The Model 3 is, to my eyes, particularly ugly. The Model S and the Roadster (still make that?) are nice.

Besides looking better, wouldn't some sort of opening up there be more aerodynamic, even if it's no longer necessary to have a grille?
Openings are less aerodynamic. You'll notice if you look closely at a lot of grilles that large portions of them are actually blocked off behind the decorative honeycomb (or whatever design) patterns for this reason.

The thing is, that other "fake" car company developed a cliquish cult like following being all hip and trendy(mainly because of their boss) that the other mainstay competent one simply cannot replicate because of it's persona, history etc., etc., etc. I hope this upcoming slew of electrics changes that :) too.
As others have said, I'd argue that it has nothing to do with persona/history/etc, or at least that that factor is a fraction of what you're implying. It has to do with the fact that Bolt looks like a shoe, and while the 3 may not be the prettiest thing in the world, it looks a lot better than the Bolt.

If GM took the Bolt's tech, threw away the body, and put something good looking on the tech, I'm sure they'd sell a lot more of them. There certainly IS a Tesla image factor that helps them, which GM doesn't have, but a good looking car is a good looking car, regardless of the brand.

So I assume you are criticizing Leaf for the lack of sales as well? It鈥檚 definitely overpriced and under engineered compared to Bolt and sales reflect that issue. Maybe spread your hate to the few other bevs on the market and keep in mind that Tesla鈥檚 rabid fans will never consider a GM...they have generations of mistrust behind them so the road for GM is uphill. But, the bolt is still a great car. And it鈥檚 trim isn鈥檛 going to leave a trail behind itself and it鈥檚 paint flake off when it rains and all the little electrical gremlins make the car absolute garbage in a decade.
And the bolt is still the best selling ev outside of Tesla in North America despite battery supply issues from the start and so much hate. The ppl that actually give the car a chance and own them, love them. That鈥檚 all that matters. Not this squawk squawk squawk from ppl like u.
Leaf has the same issues, though - it's ugly, or at best odd looking, and not something someone aspires to owning.

Long term, sure there will be the "Corollas" of the BEV world - boring appliance looking cars - of which Bolt and Leaf will fit right into those segments if the nameplates continue on. But right now, in today's EV market, because of Tesla, BEVs = something stylish unique and to be seen in, and Bolt and Leaf =/= stylish or unique to be seen in. Focus EV also had this issue.
 

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Thanks Ed753! I've seen automotive industry publications state that "BEV2 is a unique platform" as well as that "BEV2 is Gamma influenced", and as a result thought that the relationship between Gamma and BEV2 was relatively minor.

Now I know better. :)
I think what threw everyone off was the statement from GM, that the Bolt is an EV, and was designed that way, so no Voltec version would be coming at a later date, which is true, it was designed as a BEV from the beginning, but "at the beginning" it was not some ground-up new platform, it was Gamma based.

Having said that, I am not sure what the Bolt EUV is, I suspect it is a modified Bolt platform, don't they both have the same interior/dash.
 
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I would argue no vehicle in the Model 3's price range is "luxury". Premium, perhaps, but not luxury. That said, IMO, people who claim Model 3 is a luxury have more ground to stand on than, say, people who would argue a C-class or a 3-series (much less an A-class or 1-series) is a luxury. For example, many could consider AP a luxury (after all, not having to drive is great for people who don't like to drive). Some might consider effortless acceleration with hardly any noise a luxury. Some might like the airy feel of the cabin (there are very few cars at any price with that much glass in the cabin, and very little clutter). Some might consider never having to get into a burning hot car after being parked in the sun, without even having to think about it, a luxury. Who knows... "luxury" is a very personal thing. Heck, I consider an afternoon nap a luxury these days...

Fair points. I drive a Cadillac and had this conversation with my sister recently. She thinks I drive a "luxury car" because of the name. I bought my car because I liked the look inside and out. Love the way it handles, and it's quick. But I don't really think of it as a luxury car. The ride is very firm and really borders on harsh. It's kind of loud (probably due to the run-flats). Up front there's plenty of room and it's comfortable, but the back seat is quite a challenge to get into. And while I don't think it's that cramped once you get back there, my brother-in-law had a bit of a panic attack when he rode back there (that's mostly just him, he also avoids elevators). I really like my car and plan on keeping it a long time. For me, it's pretty much a perfect match. I think of my car as more of a sports coupe..

But by that definition of luxury, the Bolt is a luxury vehicle to some people based on the luxury of an EV powertrain. That sort of powertrain based on price and availability could be termed a "luxury."

None of us are privy to internal accounting at GM. I don't think it's fair to say that that the Bolt should be sold at $20K-$25K. They price things to make money, like any company. Bolt sales haven't exactly been huge and if a price reduction like that would move more of them. So why not? Because what's the point when you'd be selling at a loss?

If the Bolt should be sold at $25K because of relationships to similarly-sized vehicles, then shouldn't a Model 3 be in the same price range as a Hyundai Elantra? They have just about identical interior volume.
 
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Fair points. I drive a Cadillac and had this conversation with my sister recently. She thinks I drive a "luxury car" because of the name. I bought my car because I liked the look inside and out. Love the way it handles, and it's quick. But I don't really think of it as a luxury car. The ride is very firm and really borders on harsh. It's kind of loud (probably due to the run-flats). Up front there's plenty of room and it's comfortable, but the back seat is quite a challenge to get into. And while I don't think it's that cramped once you get back there, my brother-in-law had a bit of a panic attack when he rode back there (that's mostly just him, he also avoids elevators). I really like my car and plan on keeping it a long time. For me, it's pretty much a perfect match. I think of my car as more of a sports coupe..

But by that definition of luxury, the Bolt is a luxury vehicle to some people based on the luxury of an EV powertrain. That sort of powertrain based on price and availability could be termed a "luxury."

None of us are privy to internal accounting at GM. I don't think it's fair to say that that the Bolt should be sold at $20K-$25K. They price things to make money, like any company. Bolt sales haven't exactly been huge and if a price reduction like that would move more of them. So why not? Because what's the point when you'd be selling at a loss?

If the Bolt should be sold at $25K because of relationships to similarly-sized vehicles, then shouldn't a Model 3 be in the same price range as a Hyundai Elantra? They have just about identical interior volume.
FWIW, I've never said the Bolt should be ~$20k. My biggest beef with the Bolt is that it feels like it was designed for the "tree hugger niche", and not to be a generally desirable vehicle. There's nothing wrong with the price point if GM had made the car less quirky and more appealing to people who are not specifically looking for an EV. And it wouldn't have cost a lot more to do that.

BTW, I have a couple of friends who could easily afford mid-range German luxury vehicles but drive Bolts instead. It's the first American vehicle either of them have ever owned and they are both very happy with it. One is now on his second Bolt. So the Bolt is doing what it was designed to do. I think some of us just feel it could have done a lot more if GM had designed and positioned the car better.
 
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Fair points. I drive a Cadillac and had this conversation with my sister recently. She thinks I drive a "luxury car" because of the name. I bought my car because I liked the look inside and out. Love the way it handles, and it's quick. But I don't really think of it as a luxury car. The ride is very firm and really borders on harsh. It's kind of loud (probably due to the run-flats). Up front there's plenty of room and it's comfortable, but the back seat is quite a challenge to get into. And while I don't think it's that cramped once you get back there, my brother-in-law had a bit of a panic attack when he rode back there (that's mostly just him, he also avoids elevators). I really like my car and plan on keeping it a long time. For me, it's pretty much a perfect match. I think of my car as more of a sports coupe..

But by that definition of luxury, the Bolt is a luxury vehicle to some people based on the luxury of an EV powertrain. That sort of powertrain based on price and availability could be termed a "luxury."

None of us are privy to internal accounting at GM. I don't think it's fair to say that that the Bolt should be sold at $20K-$25K. They price things to make money, like any company. Bolt sales haven't exactly been huge and if a price reduction like that would move more of them. So why not? Because what's the point when you'd be selling at a loss?

If the Bolt should be sold at $25K because of relationships to similarly-sized vehicles, then shouldn't a Model 3 be in the same price range as a Hyundai Elantra? They have just about identical interior volume.
IMHO perception would put the model 3 with your ATS NOT a Corolla and like you said the ATS is NOT a "luxury" car but a compact sports sedan and THAT describes the model 3 with +/- 4 sec zero to 60
Telsa's "success" IMHO is making a product close enough to the mainstream "luxury" brands VS the ionic - leaf - bolt -"and friends" that are making products that look and feel like a mainstream product with a LARGE "EV tax

if the Bolt was a 5 DOOR Cadillac ELR looking thing with a bowtie then IMHO the sales would be stronger as long as it LOOKED premium
 

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IMHO perception would put the model 3 with your ATS NOT a Corolla and like you said the ATS is NOT a "luxury" car but a compact sports sedan and THAT describes the model 3 with +/- 4 sec zero to 60
Telsa's "success" IMHO is making a product close enough to the mainstream "luxury" brands VS the ionic - leaf - bolt -"and friends" that are making products that look and feel like a mainstream product with a LARGE "EV tax

if the Bolt was a 5 DOOR Cadillac ELR looking thing with a bowtie then IMHO the sales would be stronger as long as it LOOKED premium
Model 3 put Tesla on the map and has displaced the BMW 3 series as the leader in the space. Generally, it鈥檚 a lease special for the yuppy uptown condo crowd with a corporate job
 

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The initial Bolt definitely was too quirky for me. This new one is more appealing and, at least in photos, seems like more of a mainstream vehicle.

I do agree about the "tree hugger" niche and trying to be quirky and different. A big part of Tesla's success is that their early vehicles were also really attractive cars that you might still buy if they were ICE vehicles. The Bolt, Leaf, the EVs from Mitsubishi, and the small, ugly one from BMW all go for that weird transport-pod look. They remind me of a sci-fi movie where people just hop into whatever one of the identical transportation units are available. (I thought GM got the Volt syling right both times, definitely on the second.)
 

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I thought GM got the Volt syling right both times, definitely on the second.
+1
That's one reason I'm rueful that GM killed Volt so prematurely. The second gen Volt in particular combined style and sophistication better than all of its PHEV competitors.
 

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馃ぎ馃ぎ

Not a fan, i don't mind ev vehicles but gm's have been horribly executed design wise imo. And can we stop it with the tax payer money use for these things, they need to start selling on their own merit, ridiculous seeing well off people getting over 7k for the help on the purchase price. They should be using their own money to buy one of these things, we are over 20 trillion in fning debt in this country right now!
 

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馃ぎ馃ぎ

Not a fan, i don't mind ev vehicles but gm's have been horribly executed design wise imo. And can we stop it with the tax payer money use for these things, they need to start selling on their own merit, ridiculous seeing well off people getting nearly 10k a pop to buy one of these things. They can use their own money to buy one of these things, we are over 20 trillion in fning debt in this country right now! All these things do for the most part are plug into a power source fed by a coal fired power plant more than likely!

Very true. My sister and brother-in-law have constantly gotten new vehicles in the 40 years they've been together. They like cars; they're not gearheads but just like getting new ones. At first it was sports cars. My sister likes various smallish CUVs and always likes to have a trendy vehicle. In recent years, he's taking a liking to fuel efficient hybrids. As I listed above, he's had two Volts, two Prius, a Clarity, and some plug-in Kia now. I may even be forgetting one. He grabs every tax credit available. He doesn't need the money. He'd have bought these vehicles anyway. This shouldn't be subsidized. And he'll even agree with that. But if the money is there, he's taking it (I would too).
 
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And can we stop it with the tax payer money use for these things, they need to start selling on their own merit, ridiculous seeing well off people getting over 7k for the help on the purchase price. They should be using their own money to buy one of these things, we are over 20 trillion in fning debt in this country right now!
+1
The current "market" for battery electric passenger cars and light trucks is entirely a result of government action and intervention, be it mandates, subsidies, and/or the ridiculous notion that harmless carbon dioxide should be classified as a "pollutant" for regulatory purposes.
 
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