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Originally posted by carMuck+Jun 25 2004, 10:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (carMuck @ Jun 25 2004, 10:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-banzai79@Jun 25 2004, 05:06 PM
This was a dumb decision. The Crown Vic is a goldmine for Ford, and it wouldn't have been that hard to refresh the Commodore. Say what you want about it, it's still better than no full-size RWD chevy.
Agreed, GM really blew it here! Not only are skilled, experienced still be out of work, it also lost the opportunity to really fine-tune the Commodore chassis for this market. Who knows, we could've had a GTO with better styling and a gas tank that doesn't take up the whole trunk! Cops and Families could've had a new RWD Impala or Caprice to compete with the LX Chryslers.
What a dumb-*** move! I guess GM would rather piss off workers and let more sales go to Chrysler than actually employ people and sell cars! [/b][/quote]
Again, the Crown Vic has been in ongoing production - everything is already set up. What the UAW was proposing here would be very expensive, completely refitting a plant that currently makes FWD, retraining workers, setting up suppliers and logistics - this stuff doesn't just happen, it takes a lot of money. And for what, mostly fleet sales, which carry the lowest margins of any type of sale?

Then there's the cost to bring the aging Holden platform up to US specs, when it's set to be replaced fairly soon anyway. You can take up half the GTO's trunk with the gas tank (as a bandaid to meet US regs) and not too many people care, but take up half of a cop car (or family car) trunk, and it's a deal-killer. And moving it somewhere else is a major redesign, or they would have done it on the GTO.

Bringing back the tooling to make the old Caprice would hardly be any better, if not worse. It's never had the new Gen III V8's fitted to it yet, and they're not going to start cranking out LT1's again.

And the argument about employing more people doesn't wash in the overall picture either. Every sale of a GM cop car is going to come at the expense of Ford or possibly Chrysler when they get in the game, so you will be taking away as much as you add.

Kudos to the UAW for thinking creatively, but this idea is just a money pit for GM. They were smart to reject it.
 

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The reason the Crown Vic is the most profitable passenger car in the industry is because it's dirt cheap to manufacture and all the R&D costs have long since been recouped. Ford could sell them fully loaded for $17,000 brand new and still turn a very nice profit on them. Nobody has a vehicle right now that could match that.

I test-drove a Grand Marquis LS (Mercury version of the Crown Vic) the other day. And you know, I really rather liked it. Very comfortable, very nice ride. Decent power for the heavy boat that it is, and craptons of room. The trunk was a very peculiar design being so deep, but there is a lot of space in there. Overall, I think I'd be pretty happy owning one of those.
 

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Originally posted by Lichtronamo+Jun 25 2004, 07:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lichtronamo @ Jun 25 2004, 07:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 11:48 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Lichtronamo
@Jun 25 2004, 04:33 PM
This might be a dumb question, but why not just dig out the tooling for the old Caprice and start making it again?  Ford's plan has been rumored to be putting the Crown Vic into "fleet only" service for some time now.

Body on Frame cars are loooooooooong gone. No need to bring it back when there is a new RWD chassis right around the corner.
So are pushrods, but that hasn't stopped GM yet. Besides, with more than 50% of new sales as trucks and most trucks being body on frame, they are long from long gonnnnnneeeeee... [/b][/quote]
No, push rods are still relevant as they in some cases much better then the older OHC design(yeah, I said older). The only thing that makes OHC "new" is VVT or VTEC, in which that advantage is going away very soon.
Body on frame cars, not trucks as we are talking about cars here, had there day. There is no need to bring back the old Caprice cars. We have a brand new, pretty cheap RWD chassis already set for production. By the time they retool the factory with all the brand new equipment, its gunna be 06 and Zeta will already be on its way to the showrooms.

The Crown Vic's tooling has been paid for 20 times over. Its chassis has been around for some 35 years. Everything out there, FWD or RWD outclassis it in just about everything. All someone had to do was make a new RWD chassis, and Ford would either have to drop the CV or make a new one.
 

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Originally posted by MelvinJ+Jun 25 2004, 06:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MelvinJ @ Jun 25 2004, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 10:14 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-banzai79
@Jun 25 2004, 05:06 PM
This was a dumb decision. The Crown Vic is a goldmine for Ford, and it wouldn't have been that hard to refresh the Commodore. Say what you want about it, it's still better than no full-size RWD chevy.

Agreed, GM really blew it here! Not only are skilled, experienced still be out of work, it also lost the opportunity to really fine-tune the Commodore chassis for this market. Who knows, we could've had a GTO with better styling and a gas tank that doesn't take up the whole trunk! Cops and Families could've had a new RWD Impala or Caprice to compete with the LX Chryslers.
What a dumb-*** move! I guess GM would rather piss off workers and let more sales go to Chrysler than actually employ people and sell cars!
Again, the Crown Vic has been in ongoing production - everything is already set up. What the UAW was proposing here would be very expensive, completely refitting a plant that currently makes FWD, retraining workers, setting up suppliers and logistics - this stuff doesn't just happen, it takes a lot of money. And for what, mostly fleet sales, which carry the lowest margins of any type of sale?

Then there's the cost to bring the aging Holden platform up to US specs, when it's set to be replaced fairly soon anyway. You can take up half the GTO's trunk with the gas tank (as a bandaid to meet US regs) and not too many people care, but take up half of a cop car (or family car) trunk, and it's a deal-killer. And moving it somewhere else is a major redesign, or they would have done it on the GTO.

Bringing back the tooling to make the old Caprice would hardly be any better, if not worse. It's never had the new Gen III V8's fitted to it yet, and they're not going to start cranking out LT1's again.

And the argument about employing more people doesn't wash in the overall picture either. Every sale of a GM cop car is going to come at the expense of Ford or possibly Chrysler when they get in the game, so you will be taking away as much as you add.

Kudos to the UAW for thinking creatively, but this idea is just a money pit for GM. They were smart to reject it. [/b][/quote]
I do agree bringing over the CURRENT Commodore platform here for FLEET-ONLY sales is stupid. But had this very same proposal been offered a couple years ago before the "GTO-ization" of the Monaro, it could've reaped much great benefits for the GTO in styling and practicality, here in the US and could've brought a Commodore-based vehicle for fleet and private use in this country and in the process could've beat the 300 to the market. Thats the statement I was trying to make, sorry if it wasn't that clear.
If they were going to do something now, I would agree lets wait until the new Zeta platform Commodore comes out and offer it across the board. Whether GM thinks so or not, Chrysler has a winner with the 300. The only RWD, more performance and/or luxury-oriented sedan GM has here is the CTS. While still a decent value for the money, its still expensive for most people, considering the average CTS is about the same price as fully loaded Hemi 300. I mean for $35K, which is the better deal, the smaller V6 CTS or the larger V8 300? I think thats pretty obvious. So the need for GM to have a new "Caprice" or new "Buick Wildcat" is there. Policemen want better cars and the masses want more "bling-bling" at a lower price, so IMO GM needs to address these needs to keep from losing more market share, and having to fire more people.

Hope this clears things up a bit.
 

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Originally posted by carMuck+Jun 26 2004, 01:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (carMuck @ Jun 26 2004, 01:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 10:14 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-banzai79
@Jun 25 2004, 05:06 PM
This was a dumb decision. The Crown Vic is a goldmine for Ford, and it wouldn't have been that hard to refresh the Commodore. Say what you want about it, it's still better than no full-size RWD chevy.

Agreed, GM really blew it here! Not only are skilled, experienced still be out of work, it also lost the opportunity to really fine-tune the Commodore chassis for this market. Who knows, we could've had a GTO with better styling and a gas tank that doesn't take up the whole trunk! Cops and Families could've had a new RWD Impala or Caprice to compete with the LX Chryslers.
What a dumb-*** move! I guess GM would rather piss off workers and let more sales go to Chrysler than actually employ people and sell cars!

Again, the Crown Vic has been in ongoing production - everything is already set up. What the UAW was proposing here would be very expensive, completely refitting a plant that currently makes FWD, retraining workers, setting up suppliers and logistics - this stuff doesn't just happen, it takes a lot of money. And for what, mostly fleet sales, which carry the lowest margins of any type of sale?

Then there's the cost to bring the aging Holden platform up to US specs, when it's set to be replaced fairly soon anyway. You can take up half the GTO's trunk with the gas tank (as a bandaid to meet US regs) and not too many people care, but take up half of a cop car (or family car) trunk, and it's a deal-killer. And moving it somewhere else is a major redesign, or they would have done it on the GTO.

Bringing back the tooling to make the old Caprice would hardly be any better, if not worse. It's never had the new Gen III V8's fitted to it yet, and they're not going to start cranking out LT1's again.

And the argument about employing more people doesn't wash in the overall picture either. Every sale of a GM cop car is going to come at the expense of Ford or possibly Chrysler when they get in the game, so you will be taking away as much as you add.

Kudos to the UAW for thinking creatively, but this idea is just a money pit for GM. They were smart to reject it.
I do agree bringing over the CURRENT Commodore platform here for FLEET-ONLY sales is stupid. But had this very same proposal been offered a couple years ago before the "GTO-ization" of the Monaro, it could've reaped much great benefits for the GTO in styling and practicality, here in the US and could've brought a Commodore-based vehicle for fleet and private use in this country and in the process could've beat the 300 to the market. Thats the statement I was trying to make, sorry if it wasn't that clear.
If they were going to do something now, I would agree lets wait until the new Zeta platform Commodore comes out and offer it across the board. Whether GM thinks so or not, Chrysler has a winner with the 300. The only RWD, more performance and/or luxury-oriented sedan GM has here is the CTS. While still a decent value for the money, its still expensive for most people, considering the average CTS is about the same price as fully loaded Hemi 300. I mean for $35K, which is the better deal, the smaller V6 CTS or the larger V8 300? I think thats pretty obvious. So the need for GM to have a new "Caprice" or new "Buick Wildcat" is there. Policemen want better cars and the masses want more "bling-bling" at a lower price, so IMO GM needs to address these needs to keep from losing more market share, and having to fire more people.

Hope this clears things up a bit. [/b][/quote]
Looking at it as something GM could have been planning for a couple of year, it might have had some merit. Money spent on federalizing the Monaro for the GTO could have been used on this project, but I'm sure it wouldn't have covered the whole tab. Resources from something else in the new product program to pay for it. Which would go?
 

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Originally posted by MelvinJ@Jun 26 2004, 01:48 PM
Looking at it as something GM could have been planning for a couple of year, it might have had some merit. Money spent on federalizing the Monaro for the GTO could have been used on this project, but I'm sure it wouldn't have covered the whole tab. Resources from something else in the new product program to pay for it. Which would go?
It's funny, MelvinJ, as much as you have elaborated well on the drawbacks financially to going ahead with this proposal, your appeal to business logic will fall on deaf ears. Sometimes ideas like capital expenditure, fixed costs, return on investment and profit margins are foreign concepts.

The idea of selling this car has appeal, but it seems to possess appropriately little priority.
 

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The 300C is selling like crazy. There's one reason to move this up in priority. Look at luxury cars. If we assume luxury cars are the cars people really want, the cars you buy when money doesn't matter much to you, then we can possibly determine what a large portion of the market wants. Luxury cars are often V-8 RWD powered big-azz sedans. 7-series, many mercedes models, Audis....people want these things. Why not find the money to gussy up a Commodore, sell if for loads cheaper, and cash in on this demand? People are always saying....GM beancounters should loosen the purse strings. Well here you go...this is somewhere the purse strings should be loosed. If not on a Commodore, than at least by moving up the new RWD platform considerably, and not years from now.
 

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Originally posted by tgagneguam+Jun 26 2004, 04:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tgagneguam @ Jun 26 2004, 04:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MelvinJ@Jun 26 2004, 01:48 PM
Looking at it as something GM could have been planning for a couple of year, it might have had some merit.  Money spent on federalizing the Monaro for the GTO could have been used on this project, but I'm sure it wouldn't have covered the whole tab.  Resources from something else in the new product program to pay for it.  Which would go?
It's funny, MelvinJ, as much as you have elaborated well on the drawbacks financially to going ahead with this proposal, your appeal to business logic will fall on deaf ears. Sometimes ideas like capital expenditure, fixed costs, return on investment and profit margins are foreign concepts.

The idea of selling this car has appeal, but it seems to possess appropriately little priority. [/b][/quote]
Thanks, although sometimes I don't know why I bother.
 

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I'm from South Australia where the holden commodore is built and one thing i must say is that i dont like the idea of the commodore being built in the states. Personally i feel that there is no reason for it to be built there because they can simply be imported and with the new free trade agreement which exists only between the US and Australia there is no hurdle for it anyway (no tariffs) the only problem is that the only holden product that is sold in america is rediculously expesive over there and I feel that it is only that way because they called it a GTO and not a Monaro. Considering the top of the line V8 statesman caprice costs what translates to around $53,500 US and our Monaro/GTO is around $43,000 US i cant see why not.
 
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