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I question the veracity of environmental groups
Keep doin' what you're doin' jpd80! Those so called "environmental groups" are nothing more than propaganda machines and evangelists of a false religion.
 

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Which is why I question the veracity of environmental groups going after Hummer vs Excursion, Hummer having a military version certainly helped with community perception and longevity with GM buyers as did stars like Arnold owning one…..

Ford axed Excursion but replaced it with an extended wheelbase Expedition that continues today, Bill Ford is a bit greeny at heart but one of his desires was to continue a vehicle that size but in a more efficient package that didn’t run the gauntlet with environmentalist. I never understood why they didn’t push the SD diesel option to improve economy in such a large and heavy vehicle.
All perception and whims. One politician is accused of womanizing and his career is over, another does the same and not a peep on the media. Very arbitrary. Why was the Excursion or Hummer evil yet Ferrari exists - their mpg's can't be all that good either. And at least in these big trucks you can make the argument that they are fuel efficient if all the seats are filled, you can't make that argument with a Ferrari.
 

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I have heard a lot of environmentalist complaints about the Hummer and large American cars in general. I have not heard a single environmentalist complaint about the Excursion. The Excursion did not die at the hands of environmentalists. The Excursion died because it was a dumb idea produced by a company that did not understand the competition or why the competition was successful.
Kinda like GM when they released the 2500 Suburban in 2015, yeah I agree "dumb"..........

All that Ford saw was that the Suburban and Yukon XL were full-size pickup truck-based station wagons (now called SUVs). It thought that if GM could produce full-size truck-based SUVs, then Ford would produce a bigger truck-based SUV. So Ford based the Excursion on its HD pickup truck. The only thing that the Excursion had over the Suburban was size. It was larger. Being larger than the Suburban may have appealed to a certain demographic. In the absence of other compelling features, however, it was a turn-off to the demographic that made the Suburban a success for these many decades. The historic Suburban demographic is upscale--very upscale. Ford's Expedition and Lincoln Navigator had found great success with certain target audiences. There was no compelling reason for Ford to produce the Excursion. Having done so, it screwed-up massively.
The Excursion AND DISCONTINUED Suburban 2500 were 3/4 Ton Chassis, a 3/4 Ton tows a large/heavy trailer better than a 1/2 Ton, the problem is most of these vehicles are driven around town during the week, picking up the kids and groceries, despite how well they tow the boat on the weekend, they are excessive Monday - Friday.

Regarding the Excursion. I remember reading something about Ford engineering an extra 1,000 lbs into one of their big trucks to get it into the next weight class to avoid more environmental rules. I'm pretty confident of my memory being right, but don't know what Ford vehicle or when - could have been the 1990's or 2000's. But, something like that is certain to raise the hackles of environmentalists and could very well have been the Excursion.
The Suburban 2500 was so heavy it was classified as a Class 3, so GM must have done the same thing, or else these things are just so massive, its what happens?

Certain people have a remarkable way of finding obscure references and blowing them up into something big. Ford stopped selling the Excursion in the US in 2005 after just six years on American roads. GM killed the Hummer--a brand that had environmentalists wetting the bed at night--in 2010. First hitting the showrooms under GM in 1992, Hummer had been the bane of environmentalists for 18 years when it was snuffed-out. It was generally understood that for all of Hummer's opposition, it was the need for GM to cuts brands in order to secure Federal bankruptcy help, not environmentalists, that killed Hummer.

I have to wonder the color of the sky over the planet in which environmentalists killed the Excursion after only six years, but they needed 18 years and the Global Financial Crisis to put Hummer to its grave. Mercy, mercy:rolleyes::rolleyes:
Probably under the same color of sky over the Suburban 2500............... "just my guess". 🤡🤡
 

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Kinda like GM when they released the 2500 Suburban in 2015, yeah I agree "dumb"..........



The Excursion AND DISCONTINUED Suburban 2500 were 3/4 Ton Chassis, a 3/4 Ton tows a large/heavy trailer better than a 1/2 Ton, the problem is most of these vehicles are driven around town during the week, picking up the kids and groceries, despite how well they tow the boat on the weekend, they are excessive Monday - Friday.



The Suburban 2500 was so heavy it was classified as a Class 3, so GM must have done the same thing, or else these things are just so massive, its what happens?



Probably under the same color of sky over the Suburban 2500............... "just my guess". 🤡🤡
I'd not be surprised if GM did the same, I just remember reading about Ford doing that. I know I've read other articles on how car makes get around environmental rules. If I recall there is something with CUV's that they can do to get them classified as a truck or something like that to get lighter EPA rules. I remember something with the front overhang as one of the criteria. I remember it being a thread on GMI, but I can't find it.
 

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Kinda like GM when they released the 2500 Suburban in 2015, yeah I agree "dumb"..........



The Excursion AND DISCONTINUED Suburban 2500 were 3/4 Ton Chassis, a 3/4 Ton tows a large/heavy trailer better than a 1/2 Ton, the problem is most of these vehicles are driven around town during the week, picking up the kids and groceries, despite how well they tow the boat on the weekend, they are excessive Monday - Friday.



The Suburban 2500 was so heavy it was classified as a Class 3, so GM must have done the same thing, or else these things are just so massive, its what happens?



Probably under the same color of sky over the Suburban 2500............... "just my guess". 🤡🤡
Thanks Ed753 for this info! I had no idea that GM made a HD Suburban from 2015 to 2020, but sure enough both 2500HD and 3500HD versions were available to certain fleet customers in that timeframe.

As you mentioned, the current generation Suburban is no longer offered in an HD version.

Is this the 2016 Chevy Suburban 2500 HD? [Spied]

 

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The historic Suburban demographic is upscale--very upscale.
No, the historic suburban was a work truck.
Vinyl seats/floor, manual transmission, manual windows etc. It started getting upscale with the GMT400 but could still be bought as a stripped down base model. By the GMT800/900 true base models all but disappeared sans government fleet.
 

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No, the historic suburban was a work truck.
Vinyl seats/floor, manual transmission, manual windows etc. It started getting upscale with the GMT400 but could still be bought as a stripped down base model. By the GMT800/900 true base models all but disappeared sans government fleet.
I think what MisterMe is referring to with the phrase "very upscale" is the group of people who purchase new Chevrolet/GMC Suburbans or Yukon XL, not necessarily the vehicles themselves.

As far back as the seventh generation (starting with model year 1973), GM marketers found that Suburban owners represented the company's wealthiest customers. A member of Bimmerfest forums shared the reason why:

"Back in the 70's or 80's, GM did a marketing study to see which of their vehicles was purchased by their wealthiest customers. The assumption is that it would be some sort of Cadillac or a Corvette. But, it ended up being a Chevy/GMC Suburban. The next question GM had was why. The answer was that these people often had second homes, and/or various toys they moved around on trailers: boats, horses, antique cars, and the occasional sailplane (glider). A Suburban is just the ticket for loading up the family and a week's worth of luggage, groceries, and recreational equipment."
 

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I'd not be surprised if GM did the same, I just remember reading about Ford doing that. I know I've read other articles on how car makes get around environmental rules. If I recall there is something with CUV's that they can do to get them classified as a truck or something like that to get lighter EPA rules. I remember something with the front overhang as one of the criteria. I remember it being a thread on GMI, but I can't find it.
My Dad's HHR SS is considered a "truck" because it has a large flat load floor. This proved quite helpful in it qualifying for the Cash for Clunkers program as a 4cyl "truck". That 260HP/260TQ 5spd makes for quite the quick little turbo truck!!
 

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I'd not be surprised if GM did the same, I just remember reading about Ford doing that. I know I've read other articles on how car makes get around environmental rules. If I recall there is something with CUV's that they can do to get them classified as a truck or something like that to get lighter EPA rules. I remember something with the front overhang as one of the criteria. I remember it being a thread on GMI, but I can't find it.
I'd certainly like to read what you are talking about here, but I suspect it's more of the result of starting with a 3/4 Ton Truck, vs. a 1/2 Ton Truck. The curb weight of a 3/4 Ton is at least 1,000 heavier, than an equivalent 1/2 Ton. I'm not going to dig, but "per Google"......
A Suburban 1500 has a 7,300 - 7,500 GVW, and a Suburban 2500 is 8,600.
A Silverado 1500 has a 6,800 - 7,100 GVW, and a Silverado 2500 is 9,900 - up

Ford F-Series has similar increases in weight, if you ever worked on a 1/2 and 3/4 Ton pick-up, you know they weigh more, for a reason, not just another leaf spring or larger shocks................
 

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My Dad's HHR SS is considered a "truck" because it has a large flat load floor. This proved quite helpful in it qualifying for the Cash for Clunkers program as a 4cyl "truck". That 260HP/260TQ 5spd makes for quite the quick little turbo truck!!
And the PT Cruiser was a "truck" too.............
 

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I think what MisterMe is referring to with the phrase "very upscale" is the group of people who purchase new Chevrolet/GMC Suburbans or Yukon XL, not necessarily the vehicles themselves.

As far back as the seventh generation (starting with model year 1973), GM marketers found that Suburban owners represented the company's wealthiest customers. A member of Bimmerfest forums shared the reason why:
Yes. Suburban buyers were the highest demographic of any automobile sold in America. This means that Suburban buyers were richer than Cadillac buyers, than Mercedes buyers, than Bentley buyers, than Rolls Royce buyers. The Suburban along with the Yukon XL and Escalade ESV are built in Texas. What else do they have in Texas? They have cattlemen and oil men. For the most part, these people do not take the bus to work.
 

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Yes. Suburban buyers were the highest demographic of any automobile sold in America. This means that Suburban buyers were richer than Cadillac buyers, than Mercedes buyers, than Bentley buyers, than Rolls Royce buyers. The Suburban along with the Yukon XL and Escalade ESV are built in Texas. What else do they have in Texas? They have cattlemen and oil men. For the most part, these people do not take the bus to work.
My Aunt and Uncle had a Suburban, before that they had a A-Body Pontiac Station Wagon, they were "campers" pulled a small pop-up, but after the 3rd child was born (3 kids under 10) what were their options for a vehicle to carry family, stuff and camper, which grew as the kids grew....... (This was last 80's - mid 90's time frame)

Arlington was the RWD Impala/Caprice Plant, (when the Impala SS was all the rage) I recall when GM made the decision to stop production and start building SUV's, almost makes me shutter to think how right GM was on that move.
 

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My Aunt and Uncle had a Suburban, before that they had a A-Body Pontiac Station Wagon, they were "campers" pulled a small pop-up, but after the 3rd child was born (3 kids under 10) what were their options for a vehicle to carry family, stuff and camper, which grew as the kids grew....... (This was last 80's - mid 90's time frame)

Arlington was the RWD Impala/Caprice Plant, (when the Impala SS was all the rage) I recall when GM made the decision to stop production and start building SUV's, almost makes me shutter to think how right GM was on that move.
My point was they weren't "rich", he had a modest job in accounting in a small town hospital and she was a stay at home mom.

He's actually probably one of the "cheapest" guys on the planet, they added a dormer to their small 2-bedroom house instead of upgrading.
 

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I think fugly is a strong term.

But owners do love them. Some even have put newer Super Duty front ends on them to update them.

View attachment 65203
Trying to imagine a modern interpretation with SD front and the 7.3 V8 & 6.7 Powerstroke but yeah, a real lifestyle vehicle……..I now understand why the Expedition EL is a good modern alternative.

Just linking back to the topic, GM’s ful sized SUVs have the right balance of size, space, styling and capability to make them winners, Ford doesn’t achieve as much because it doesn’t try as much (only EBV6), only two brands and a very strong F Series truck line.
 

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Trying to imagine a modern interpretation with SD front and the 7.3 V8 & 6.7 Powerstroke but yeah, a real lifestyle vehicle……..I now understand why the Expedition EL is a good modern alternative.

Just linking back to the topic, GM’s ful sized SUVs have the right balance of size, space, styling and capability to make them winners, Ford doesn’t achieve as much because it doesn’t try as much (only EBV6), only two brands and a very strong F Series truck line.
I'd imagine nowadays, they'd probably have done more differentiation than a direct Super Duty front end, but still.


Another factor more recently too, is Ford basically put their offerings (Expy/Navi) on cruise control from '03 until 2018. The '07 "redesign" kept the same '03-'06 bodies with new front clips and interiors, but even if you want to use those as a reference point, they still went 7 years unchanged until some help finally arrived with a light refresh for 2015, and it was another 3 years for all new - 10 years between all new models and 13 years using the same body design. Can't go that long with an unchanged or minimally changed product in any segment and expect much (meanwhile Toyota still has the '07 Sequoia rolling around lol) .....they're lucky the segment is basically GM or Ford (with the Sequoia and Armada/QX80 outliers).

Meanwhile, GM had new product in '07, '15, and now '21.....and interestingly, GM never seems to need to even refresh their SUVs between full redesigns, despite 6-7 year cycles, which is impressive.
 

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I'd imagine nowadays, they'd probably have done more differentiation than a direct Super Duty front end, but still.


Another factor more recently too, is Ford basically put their offerings (Expy/Navi) on cruise control from '03 until 2018. The '07 "redesign" kept the same '03-'06 bodies with new front clips and interiors, but even if you want to use those as a reference point, they still went 7 years unchanged until some help finally arrived with a light refresh for 2015, and it was another 3 years for all new - 10 years between all new models and 13 years using the same body design. Can't go that long with an unchanged or minimally changed product in any segment and expect much (meanwhile Toyota still has the '07 Sequoia rolling around lol) .....they're lucky the segment is basically GM or Ford (with the Sequoia and Armada/QX80 outliers).

Meanwhile, GM had new product in '07, '15, and now '21.....and interestingly, GM never seems to need to even refresh their SUVs between full redesigns, despite 6-7 year cycles, which is impressive.
Exactly, GM hit the go button on new full sized SUVs right at a key pivotal moment for Ford when Mulally took over the reigns. He was convinced that full sized trucks and SUVs were in permanent die back, then realised that full sized truck sales came back but never really embracing a full makeover of Expedition/Navigator. It always felt like Ford didn’t understand their full sized SUV buyer to the extent that GM did. Mind you large mid sized Explorer seemed to sell pretty well but that’s another story….
 

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Excursion was good, just killed by outraged environmentalist groups…
The Extended Expedition is a lighter Excursion hiding in plain sight, I think it deserves its own name
The Excursion died due to tanked sales during the great recession.
 

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Thanks Ed753 for this info! I had no idea that GM made a HD Suburban from 2015 to 2020, but sure enough both 2500HD and 3500HD versions were available to certain fleet customers in that timeframe.

As you mentioned, the current generation Suburban is no longer offered in an HD version.

Is this the 2016 Chevy Suburban 2500 HD? [Spied]

It was government sales only due to the fact that they used the gmt900 3/4 ton frame and modified it for the new body. It was missing a body mount bolt, that's why they wouldn't sell it retail.
 

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Yes. Suburban buyers were the highest demographic of any automobile sold in America. This means that Suburban buyers were richer than Cadillac buyers, than Mercedes buyers, than Bentley buyers, than Rolls Royce buyers. The Suburban along with the Yukon XL and Escalade ESV are built in Texas. What else do they have in Texas? They have cattlemen and oil men. For the most part, these people do not take the bus to work.
#1 buyer of Suburbans is the US government, #2 buyer is Mexican drug cartels. Everyone else comes in a distant 3rd. Has been this way for decades.
 
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