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Apart from the 4.5L Duramax, are there any other diesels GM will offer in North America that have been announced?

If GM does not offer diesels in vehicles other than their trucks, do you think it will be a big loss for them when Honda will be releasing a diesel Accord and Volkswagen offering more diesel options (or so I heard)? And Mercedes too?
 

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Apart from the 4.5L Duramax, are there any other diesels GM will offer in North America that have been announced?

If GM does not offer diesels in vehicles other than their trucks, do you think it will be a big loss for them when Honda will be releasing a diesel Accord and Volkswagen offering more diesel options (or so I heard)? And Mercedes too?
All those companies already offer several diesel variants but the sales are less than spectacular. For the better part you do get better mpg but its just not something that is popular in NA, simply because people link it to transport trucks, black smoke, bad smell and odd sounding. That and they see the price of diesel being more than gas and are turned off.
 

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All those companies already offer several diesel variants but the sales are less than spectacular. For the better part you do get better mpg but its just not something that is popular in NA, simply because people link it to transport trucks, black smoke, bad smell and odd sounding. That and they see the price of diesel being more than gas and are turned off.
Who besides Mercedes and VW are selling diesel passenger vehicles in NA?

The Mercedes costs more than I want to pay and I am not excited about VW ... maybe as a last resort in 2 or 3 years.

How about some of the Vauxhall diesels "cleaned up" for NA like:

1.3CDTi 75PS
1.3CDTi 16v 90PS
1.7CDTi 16v 100PS
1.9CDTi 8v 120PS
1.9CDTi 16v 150PS
2.0i 126PS
2.0i 150PS
2.5CDTi 100PS
3.0CDTi V6 24v

I'll guess that "diesel truck fans" would buy reasonably priced diesel passenger vehicles ... IF ... they were available with fuel economies ABOVE 40 mpg(US) combined average [above 51 mpg(Imperial) combined cycle in the UK].
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/

Maybe somewhere between 500k and 2 million units average/year over the first 2 years due to "pent up" demand depending on availability!
 

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The EPA has made diesel auto mpg in the U.S. less than spectacular, so there really isn' the incentive to produce the diesels en masse.

I think I read that they saddled the new Jetta diesel with 3 egr valves. Unbelievable.
 

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The EPA has made diesel auto mpg in the U.S. less than spectacular, so there really isn' the incentive to produce the diesels en masse.

I think I read that they saddled the new Jetta diesel with 3 egr valves. Unbelievable.
Agreed, diesel emissions abatement is a "tough hill to climb".

However, it has been done! And MORE are coming!

You are correct, EPA only rates the diesel Jetta at 34 mpg combined average.

The first user data has now been posted (9/22/08) on the EPA site reflecting 49 mpg (80% highway). And the folks trying to establish the record for 50 state fuel economy record are reporting numbers above 56 mpg (highway I assume).

There is an urgent need and opportunity for 40 mpg and higher combined average vehicles ... NOW. Possibly over 1 miillion units/year diesel, just from the "diesel truck fans".

And that does not include all the "gassers" willing to give a FUEL FRUGAL (2.5~1.8 gallons/100 miles) diesel a chance.

The question is ... How will GM participate in this market segment?

Will all the "eggs" be in the strategic "Volt" basket? With volume buildup about 2015 or after?

Or will GM take a more aggressive tactical action to address the CURRENT market need/demand with volumes of some other technology within the next 18 months?

Seven years is a long time for the lower middle class consumer to wait for a solution to his/her current problem. In fact, THEY WILL NOT WAIT!
 

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Will all the "eggs" be in the strategic "Volt" basket? With volume buildup about 2015 or after?

Or will GM take a more aggressive tactical action to address the CURRENT market need/demand with volumes of some other technology within the next 18 months?

Seven years is a long time for the lower middle class consumer to wait for a solution to his/her current problem. In fact, THEY WILL NOT WAIT!
You must be blind to not notice all the other upcoming products.
 

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You must be blind to not notice all the other upcoming products.
You didn't answer the other question that was directed to you...

Who except the higher-class German brands offers a diesel?

All the main players (GM, Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan... pretty much the Big 6 for car sales on this continent) don't.

"All those companies already offer several diesel variants but the sales are less than spectacular." Yeah right.

The fact is, there's no mainstream affordable diesel commuter for sale here.
 

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You must be blind to not notice all the other upcoming products.

Apparently I missed "all the other upcoming products". :eek:

Please help me out with what can be expected in the next 24 months that is 5 passenger 4/5 door AT, AC and expected to have a combined average mpg above 45 plus cost less than $28K. By the way it does NOt have to be diesel.

The forum's assistance would be appreciated.



The only "affordable" diesel that is in the US market now are the VWs.

Best guess Honda will be here with some luck in 2009.

Then maybe Hyundai/Kia and/or Nissan, Mazda in 2010?
 

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Apparently I missed "all the other upcoming products". :eek:

Please help me out with what can be expected in the next 24 months that is 5 passenger 4/5 door AT, AC and expected to have a combined average mpg above 45 plus cost less than $28K.

The forum's assistance would be appreciated.
Not one company even has one coming, not even VW. The best VW will have is 35 mpg combined. Diesels are good, but not as great as you make it seem, diesel is still more expensive than gas and will come close to evening out in price after 3-5 years. The comment I posted was in regards to GM spending all their time on the Volt when there are SEVERAL new cars coming within 24 months of which a few still haven't officially been seen.

The Cruze and Aveo will have much greater gasoline engines than all its competitors, because as we all know diesels have never been popular in North America even though they have been offered for decades.
 

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Not one company even has one coming, not even VW. The best VW will have is 35 mpg combined. Diesels are good, but not as great as you make it seem, diesel is still more expensive than gas and will come close to evening out in price after 3-5 years. The comment I posted was in regards to GM spending all their time on the Volt when there are SEVERAL new cars coming within 24 months of which a few still haven't officially been seen.

The Cruze and Aveo will have much greater gasoline engines than all its competitors, because as we all know diesels have never been popular in North America even though they have been offered for decades.
Thanks for the input on the Cruze and Aveo.

What range of combined average mpg is expected?



Back to diesels. I had to LOL at "because as we all know diesels have never been popular in North America even though they have been offered for decades."

Within the last 10 years, with the exception of VW and Mercedes, I believe almost all diesels is the US have had "truck genes".

There is a complete and separate more refined class of diesels beyond that in the world today. In fact Ford and GM have some of the best ones (unfotunately just not US emissions abated).

Besides the absence of ULSD precluded use of the more refined small Euro turbo diesels in the US.

I still think that "diesel truck folks" would be significant supporters of Euro type FUEL FRUGAL (45 mpg+ combined average) diesels in the US market. And then many "gasers" would jump on board when they saw the machines and their fuel economies.

The VW diesel sales will be a "limited" indicator because many people simply do not like VW for what ever reason.
 

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Thanks for the input on the Cruze and Aveo.

What range of combined average mpg is expected?



Back to diesels. I had to LOL at "because as we all know diesels have never been popular in North America even though they have been offered for decades."

Within the last 10 years, with the exception of VW and Mercedes, I believe almost all diesels is the US have had "truck genes".

There is a complete and separate more refined class of diesels beyond that in the world today. In fact Ford and GM have some of the best ones (unfotunately just not US emissions abated).

Besides the absence of ULSD precluded use of the more refined small Euro turbo diesels in the US.

I still think that "diesel truck folks" would be significant supporters of Euro type FUEL FRUGAL (45 mpg+ combined average) diesels in the US market. And then many "gasers" would jump on board when they saw the machines and their fuel economies.

The VW diesel sales will be a "limited" indicator because many people simply do not like VW for what ever reason.
Diesels have had much longer offerings in North America. About 15 years ago my uncle had a diesel MB. I know the Jetta has had it since the early 90s at least. I can go on. To say they haven't been around for long and people buy VW just because it has a TDI is a rather weak argument.

If diesel variants of vehicles are so popular in North America as you make it seem, why don't the numbers match up? Why isn't there consumer demand? Why is the public's perspective on diesel cars so poor? Diesels are generally better in long roads, but for the average North America person they do more city driving on flat surfaces. Diesels make sense in Europe where you will be driving on more hilly terrains and generally in more rural areas.

No one has 45+ mpg combined and yet enforcing such a regime by using diesel is even worst than what CAFE is attempting to do. If diesels were to be mainstream and the only thing sold, I would personally never buy a car again. Diesels are boring, horrible sounding and I simply see no benefit from it at all.
 

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Diesels have had much longer offerings in North America. About 15 years ago my uncle had a diesel MB. I know the Jetta has had it since the early 90s at least. I can go on. To say they haven't been around for long and people buy VW just because it has a TDI is a rather weak argument.

If diesel variants of vehicles are so popular in North America as you make it seem, why don't the numbers match up? Why isn't there consumer demand? Why is the public's perspective on diesel cars so poor? Diesels are generally better in long roads, but for the average North America person they do more city driving on flat surfaces. Diesels make sense in Europe where you will be driving on more hilly terrains and generally in more rural areas.

No one has 45+ mpg combined and yet enforcing such a regime by using diesel is even worst than what CAFE is attempting to do. If diesels were to be mainstream and the only thing sold, I would personally never buy a car again. Diesels are boring, horrible sounding and I simply see no benefit from it at all.
I agree that diesels have been in the US since the 1930s. The US diesels of the '90s and early 2000s have improved.

However, the R&D on diesels in Europe made radical improvements since 2000 due to the emphasis on diesel (approximately 50% of all AUTO sales are diesels).

One of these 1.4 to 1.9 liter Euro type diesels can provide more than adequate torque for many automotive application while remaining "fuel frugal".

To suggest that I believe diesel is the only answer is WRONG! It is only one of several automotive opportunities to improve the US economy, defend against the attack on the consumers' wallet, and reduce oil imports.

Due to Ford and GM experience with these engines in Europe, they become one of the "easiest" and quickest pathes to low fuel consumption rate. A 'bridge", if you will, to the advanced technologies expected toward the end of the next decade.

I will agree that the EPA test result are not "kind" for the VW diesels and do not reflect significant gains in fuel economy. I suspect there is a problem with the EPA model/methods ... but that is just me and a few others. The first consumer entered data on the EPA site reflects a FE combined average 124% higher than the EPA value. "Only time will tell"!

Finally, I would NEVER propose to restrict your choice of motive technology.

My proposal is to EXPAND consumer options in the FUEL FRUGAL arena.

And to learn from others if there are other alternatives to redunce transport energy conssumption.
 

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Diesels in cars have NOT been very popular in the past but I think currently they would stand a better chance than before due to high fuel prices. On the other hand there are advances in gas engine technology that will close the gap some between gas and diesel engines in efficiency that might not make a diesel worth it. Diesel is typically more expensive now, the fuel stinks, and bad memories from diesels of the 80's is much of it. If a Cruze with a 1.4L DI turbo motor and BAS+ can (hopefully) get average fuel economy over 40 mpg then most will be pretty happy with that.

I've rented a VW Passat wagon diesel in Europe before back in 2000 and really loved driving it with the 6-speed manual. Had they offered it here at back then I would have bought one. I bought my Grand Prix instead. A few years later they did offer a diesel in the Passat wagon but I keep my cars for a long time so my opportunity had passed. Can't wait to see what is available when my GP is due to be replaced. I'd love to see more diesel options if they can get much better fuel economy than a gas motor. Personally, I love the sound and torque curve as well as the fuel efficiency. I thought it was fun to drive.
 

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Just a small correction. Honda, the brand, is not coming out with a diesel Accord............ they backed away from that. Their Acura brand is coming out with one.

Again, a premium priced product.

Thus, for the foreseeable future, no mainstream, entry level brand will be offering a diesel engine choice in cars. There is no conspiracy here, just an honest hesitancy to offer a product that is higher priced, and uses a higher priced fuel.

We have to remember, in Europe, diesel is encouraged by the government. Taxes on diesel fuel are lower than gasoline, and emissions requirements are relaxed for the diesels. It is exactly the opposite here.
 
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but its just not something that is popular in NA, simply because people link it to transport trucks, black smoke, bad smell and odd sounding. That and they see the price of diesel being more than gas and are turned off.
Actually, I watched the oil exec testimony before Congress last year online, and they were asked by a Senator why diesel is more popular in Europe than here in the States. They made the point that it is in large part because of public policy. Europe has policies in place which encourage the use of diesel.

Diesels would be offered more here in US cars if public policy dictated as such. And the price of diesel would fall as refiners refined more for the demand.

But I do wish GM would offer diesels in it's sedans/SUV's/CUV's here in the States. I would buy one. If more car manufacturers made diesel cars, then the refiners would need to refine more to keep up with the demand. And as more people used diesel, the price of gasoline would fall.
 

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Actually, I watched the oil exec testimony before Congress last year online, and they were asked by a Senator why diesel is more popular in Europe than here in the States. They made the point that it is in large part because of public policy. Europe has policies in place which encourage the use of diesel.

Diesels would be offered more here in US cars if public policy dictated as such. And the price of diesel would fall as refiners refined more for the demand.

But I do wish GM would offer diesels in it's sedans/SUV's/CUV's here in the States. I would buy one. If more car manufacturers made diesel cars, then the refiners would need to refine more to keep up with the demand. And as more people used diesel, the price of gasoline would fall.
Sadly the market goes the other way in spite of demand, the cost would be driven up.
 

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Sadly the market goes the other way in spite of demand, the cost would be driven up.
I would suggest that the price of fuels will continue to go up independent of demand from now on! Demand/supply may "disturb" pricing but the long range trend is UP for gasoline, diesel, and ethanol!

The only possible limiting opportunity is something like algae sourced bio fuels that exhibit yields above 10,000 gallons/acre of bio diesel or bio butanol (which has almost the same characteristics as gasoine by the way).

Obviously the NEW advances in gasoline engines, like the HCCI, will narrow the gap with diesels.

However, the "new" European diesels lead with probably over 200 million diesel engine years of operating experience since 2000. That results in remarkable opportunity for much refinement that advanced gasoline engines do not ... and will not have ... for many years!

These along with 44 mpg and greater fuel economies are the reasons I am in "hot pursuit" of a Euro type diesel passenger car.

If the Det3 (or anyone for that matter) offered something above 50 mpg combined average in a 5 passenger 4-5 door AT, AC, PS vehicle I would certainly consider it ... provided I have not already acquired a new vehicle by that time (usually a 5-10 year cycle).
 

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I would suggest that the price of fuels will continue to go up independent of demand from now on! Demand/supply may "disturb" pricing but the long range trend is UP for gasoline, diesel, and ethanol!

The only possible limiting opportunity is something like algae sourced bio fuels that exhibit yields above 10,000 gallons/acre of bio diesel or bio butanol (which has almost the same characteristics as gasoine by the way).

Obviously the NEW advances in gasoline engines, like the HCCI, will narrow the gap with diesels.

However, the "new" European diesels lead with probably over 200 million diesel engine years of operating experience since 2000. That results in remarkable opportunity for much refinement that advanced gasoline engines do not ... and will not have ... for many years!

These along with 44 mpg and greater fuel economies are the reasons I am in "hot pursuit" of a Euro type diesel passenger car.

If the Det3 (or anyone for that matter) offered something above 50 mpg combined average in a 5 passenger 4-5 door AT, AC, PS vehicle I would certainly consider it ... provided I have not already acquired a new vehicle by that time (usually a 5-10 year cycle).
No matter what you suggest, stock markets don't run that way and there is very little a government can do to intervene stock values on anything from businesses to natural resources. Value is driven by demand and supply. The larger the demand will get on diesel, the more it will drive up costs of diesel and already it is more than unleaded gasoline.

If you want such great fuel economy, just go for the Volt. Without down payments you will be paying on 60 month finances at 0% roughly $550 a month and a 35 mpg combined about $400 a month. The cost of running the Volt over 15k miles could be around $73 and the 35 mpg car would be around $1750. You will be paying very similar rates by the end of the year and you will get much better than 44 mpg combined.
 
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