[doh]

http://ctv2.theglobeandmail.com/ser...604/business/Business/businessBN/ctv-business

TORONTO — Premier Dalton McGuinty says Ontario will continue to offer incentives to the auto sector despite the controversy surrounding the planned shutdown of a General Motors of Canada Ltd. truck plant in Oshawa, Ont.

The move by GM, which will affect about 2,600 jobs when it closes next year, will not deter his Liberal government from providing other loans to secure investment, Mr. McGuinty said Wednesday as debate over the closure continued to rage.

Nor, he said, would his government think twice about making other loans on the generous terms as the one extended to GM.

“It's not something we pull out of the air,” he said. “It's based on what the competition's doing.”

Other jurisdictions, notably states south of the U.S. border, are willing to put more money on the table than Ontario to land auto deals, he said.

Mr. McGuinty also said he should have been more forthcoming about terms of incentives given to GM in return for a new manufacturing project.

His government had described the $375-million in federal and provincial funding for GM's Beacon project as an investment. Tuesday, however, when GM announced the move, it became apparent the aid consists of federal and provincial interest-free loans that are not repayable until 2053.

“We should have made that information available much earlier,” Mr. McGuinty told reporters at the provincial legislature. “The loan puts us in a better light than, frankly, what looks like a giveaway.”

The incentives consisted of a $175-million loan from the province and $200-million from the federal government.

At the time three years ago, his government was constrained by “commercial sensitivities,” he said.

GM received the single largest chunk of the $500-million in provincial aid for the auto sector. Mr. McGuinty said government officials have not revealed the terms of any deal it has struck with an auto company to any industry players.

 

[doh]

His government had described the $375-million in federal and provincial funding for GM's Beacon project as an investment. Tuesday, however, when GM announced the move, it became apparent the aid consists of federal and provincial interest-free loans that are not repayable until 2053.

“We should have made that information available much earlier,” Mr. McGuinty told reporters at the provincial legislature. “The loan puts us in a better light than, frankly, what looks like a giveaway.”

.

Humm, a 45 yeaar 0% interest loan, does sound like a giveaway to me

 

[paul8488]

Hey, Canada doesn't have a domestic automaker, so a Toyota plant is as good as a Hionda plant is as good as a Hyundai plant is as good as a Lada plant.

Maybe Canada can convince PSA to set-up shop and start turning out some new small cars. Or Nissan / Renault. Or Hyundai.

 

[lio45]

Or Hyundai.

Fool us once, shame on you. Twice, shame on us.

 

[paul8488]

There was once a Canadian Hyundai plant?!?

 

[CanadianGMGuy]

Hey, Canada doesn't have a domestic automaker, so a Toyota plant is as good as a Hionda plant is as good as a Hyundai plant is as good as a Lada plant.

Maybe Canada can convince PSA to set-up shop and start turning out some new small cars. Or Nissan / Renault. Or Hyundai.

I don't know. I know I do not think that way. I believe GM, Ford and Chysler as domestics. Always have always will.

 

[paul8488]

I don't know. I know I do not think that way. I believe GM, Ford and Chysler as domestics. Always have always will.

Okay, so for you it makes more sense to buy a Cobalt built in the US or HHR built in Mexico than a Civic built in Ontario? I would never tell anyone that they are wrong... I know that I buy whatever vehicles that I want... but I really see the importance of encouraging non-US manufacturers to keep producing vehicles in Canada.

 

[CanadianGMGuy]

Okay, so for you it makes more sense to buy a Cobalt built in the US or HHR built in Mexico than a Civic built in Ontario? I would never tell anyone that they are wrong... I know that I buy whatever vehicles that I want... but I really see the importance of encouraging non-US manufacturers to keep producing vehicles in Canada.

Sure. I believe a strong GM (Ford and Chysler) means a strong ontario. "Domestics" employ far more ontarians than "imports". I believe they said for every one assembly line job there are 10 spin off jobs. So GM employs I think around 13000, Chysler 8000, and Ford 7000?

Also GM has been in Canada since the early 1900's, so why shouldn't I consider them to be domestic

 

[fp115]

Sure. I believe a strong GM means a strong ontario. "Domestics" employ far more ontarians than "imports". I believe they said for every one assembly line job there are 10 spin off jobs. So GM employs I think around 13000, Chysler 8000, and Ford 7000?

Also GM has been in Canada since the early 1900's, so why shouldn't I consider them to be domestic

GM has originated in Oshawa in 1908. Colonel Sam McLaughlin, original founder of GM started it in Oshawa. Heck, if you are around, you may want to visit his old Estate, Parkwood Estates on Simcoe road.

The government will be foolish to let GM slip away and out of Ontario. We have CHQ, South Main Office (SMO), Canadian Regional Engineering Centre (CREC). CREC is amongst the most high tech engineering centres in Canada. Some of the brightest minds work there, all Equinox from Project Driveway originate from Oshawa's CREC. The upcoming Vue plug-in comes from CREC. The amazing technology coming to future products will also be coming from CREC. If the government doesn't catch on quickly enough, GM won't be able to afford all these offices (yes offices) and employees that sit in them. Currently it costs much more to have a working staff in Canada than it does in most of the other markets GM is functioning in. This weak USD and strong CDN has a major negative effect on this.

 

[GM-10]

There was once a Canadian Hyundai plant?!?

Yes...it built Sonatas.
http://www.slv2000.qc.ec.gc.ca/bibliotheque/centre_docum/protection/70_98_a.pdf





.

 

[logansowner]

Okay, so for you it makes more sense to buy a Cobalt built in the US or HHR built in Mexico than a Civic built in Ontario? I would never tell anyone that they are wrong... I know that I buy whatever vehicles that I want... but I really see the importance of encouraging non-US manufacturers to keep producing vehicles in Canada.

The American companies are considered "domestic" by most Canadians, they've been around here as long as they have in the US, so when Honda and Toyota show up big in the 80's, they are new. Not to mention Canada and the US have always been close trade partners, Japan, not until much later.

However, I think most of us are going to put what makes more sense ahead of any good faith. So if a foreign car makes more financial/practical sense for a particular person at a particular time, that is what most of them will buy.

 

[Rocket 88]

...However, I think most of us are going to put what makes more sense ahead of any good faith. So if a foreign car makes more financial/practical sense for a particular person at a particular time, that is what most of them will buy.

For sure...its called selling your soul cheap. Buying foreign cars has made so much sense at a particular time here in the states that the domestic industry is dying and thousand of folks are loosing their jobs. As much as we like to think of it as happening to some UAW/CAW overpaid idiot factory worker it eventually affects all of us because its all one economy.

While Toyota and Honda love to tell us how many vehicles they produce locally they still import a large amount of their vehicles from Japan and I believe the percentage is actually increasing. My wife bought a Honda CR-V from Osaka. I had an uncle who bombed Osaka in the 40's and came close to being shot down. Luckily he's dead so I'll never have to discuss it with him.

Just for the record this is not to say I would blame my Canadian friends for feeling the way you do. After all, my country men did the same.

 

[bone]

Yes...it built Sonatas.
http://www.slv2000.qc.ec.gc.ca/bibliotheque/centre_docum/protection/70_98_a.pdf




.

Renaults were once assembled in Quebec and Volvos in Nova Scotia. I remember Hyundai produced Sonatas in Bromont, Quebec that were of such poor quality that few if any were sold so the plant was shut down shortly after it opened.....

 

[SUPERBADD75]

For sure...its called selling your soul cheap. Buying foreign cars has made so much sense at a particular time here in the states that the domestic industry is dying and thousand of folks are loosing their jobs. As much as we like to think of it as happening to some UAW/CAW overpaid idiot factory worker it eventually affects all of us because its all one economy.

While Toyota and Honda love to tell us how many vehicles they produce locally they still import a large amount of their vehicles from Japan and I believe the percentage is actually increasing. My wife bought a Honda CR-V from Osaka. I had an uncle who bombed Osaka in the 40's and came close to being shot down. Luckily he's dead so I'll never have to discuss it with him.

Just for the record this is not to say I would blame my Canadian friends for feeling the way you do. After all, my country men did the same.

and Detroit has absolutely nothing to do with why they lost so much business to the imports? the sorry excuses for cars that they put out until very recently should have been accepted even though there were better vehicles being produced at similar prices? and then it's the consumer's fault that Detroit has been resistant to produce competitve cars in favor of more profitable trucks even though they had a little warning of things to come a couple of years ago when Katrina made gas prices spike to historic levels? you really think that Americans should buy inferior products and compromise what they want or need just to support a domestic auto industry that has seemingly not cared one whit about what consumers REALLY wanted? that's ridiculous! Detroit is most of the reason why they are where they are right now. anybody that thinks that's bull has their head planted deeply and firmly up their rectum.




and by the way, when i say Detroit, i hope the citizens of that city know that i am referencing the U.S. auto industry, not the people of Detroit.

 

[fp115]

and Detroit has absolutely nothing to do with why they lost so much business to the imports? the sorry excuses for cars that they put out until very recently should have been accepted even though there were better vehicles being produced at similar prices? and then it's the consumer's fault that Detroit has been resistant to produce competitve cars in favor of more profitable trucks even though they had a little warning of things to come a couple of years ago when Katrina made gas prices spike to historic levels? you really think that Americans should buy inferior products and compromise what they want or need just to support a domestic auto industry that has seemingly not cared one whit about what consumers REALLY wanted? that's ridiculous! Detroit is most of the reason why they are where they are right now. anybody that thinks that's bull has their head planted deeply and firmly up their rectum.

Read up on your history a bit. Years ago the US and Canada market was focused on trucks and then SUV. While imports have never been able to make a proper truck or SUV, the same could be said about GM and cars. GM has been doing very well for the past years under the truck market, but the steep raise of fuel has meant the market has shifted from trucks to cars, truck sales are way down while car sales are up. No one anticipated the gas prices to nearly double within less than 2 years, much less than a type product cycle. If this change of price would have been over a period of 5 years, GM would be better suited to react. But to make matters worse, we also have CAFE introducing bills of 35.9 MPG by 2015, which is only 1 product cycle away, so changes must be made now, not in 2009 or 2010. Cutting down on trucks greatly increases GM's chances to reaching the CAFE regulations and getting closer to becoming profitable again.

In the past 2 years and with these recent cuts, GM will be able to remove 15 billion dollars of expenditures.

 

[hotrod1949]

Humm, a 45 yeaar 0% interest loan, does sound like a giveaway to me

These loans are historically forgivable based on man hours worked. An autoworker in Ontario paying $400+ in various taxes weekly (income, E.I, C.P.P etc.)is a taxpayer the governments want. As many have so eloquently stated, there ain't many $30 an hour jobs around anymore, for them unedumicated ottowurkers, but all three levels of government in this country are addicted to the taxes that we pay. If 2600 in Oshawa lose their jobs, and find replacement employment at say $20 an hour, the feds and province would probably lose $200 a week,per person, or more than a half million a week, from one plant! These loans scratch both backs me thinks.

 

[hotrod1949]

. If this change of price would have been over a period of 5 years, GM would be better suited to react. But to make matters worse, we also have CAFE introducing bills of 35.9 MPG by 2015, which is only 1 product cycle away, so changes must be made now, not in 2009 or 2010. Cutting down on trucks greatly increases GM's chances to reaching the CAFE regulations and getting closer to becoming profitable again.

In the past 2 years and with these recent cuts, GM will be able to remove 15 billion dollars of expenditures.[/QUOTE]


This, in a nutshell, is GM's biggest problem. They can't react,because of the size of the corporation, and have not been proactive in years. This must change,quickly. GM must again be seen as a leader in design and technology, or they are doomed. I have seen the time, and the number of hands the most simple engineering change takes at GM, and the same process with Suzuki. GM is the 1000 foot lake freighter to Suzuki's 20 foot runabout.

 

[paul8488]

I feel for these workers in Oshawa... there are people that have been there 10, 20, 30, 40 years... imagine how attached you get to your workplace after a lifetime career in one place. We all love to go on about lazy union workers and stupid GM management, but when you really think about it this is quite sad. I've only been working for my company for 7 years, and I would hate the thought of it closing. I don't always agree with union politics, and lately can't agree with anything GM management is doing... but I really feel for all the people in Oshawa (and in the US plants that are closing too) that have to watch as their plant closes.

 

[Chet]

GM has originated in Oshawa in 1908. Colonel Sam McLaughlin, original founder of GM started it in Oshawa. Heck, if you are around, you may want to visit his old Estate, Parkwood Estates on Simcoe road.

The government will be foolish to let GM slip away and out of Ontario. We have CHQ, South Main Office (SMO), Canadian Regional Engineering Centre (CREC). CREC is amongst the most high tech engineering centres in Canada. Some of the brightest minds work there, all Equinox from Project Driveway originate from Oshawa's CREC. The upcoming Vue plug-in comes from CREC. The amazing technology coming to future products will also be coming from CREC. If the government doesn't catch on quickly enough, GM won't be able to afford all these offices (yes offices) and employees that sit in them. Currently it costs much more to have a working staff in Canada than it does in most of the other markets GM is functioning in. This weak USD and strong CDN has a major negative effect on this.

Let them? Slip away? GM is running for the border and are going to leave no matter what the government offers.

 

[doh]

These loans are historically forgivable based on man hours worked. An autoworker in Ontario paying $400+ in various taxes weekly (income, E.I, C.P.P etc.)is a taxpayer the governments want. As many have so eloquently stated, there ain't many $30 an hour jobs around anymore, for them unedumicated ottowurkers, but all three levels of government in this country are addicted to the taxes that we pay. If 2600 in Oshawa lose their jobs, and find replacement employment at say $20 an hour, the feds and province would probably lose $200 a week,per person, or more than a half million a week, from one plant! These loans scratch both backs me thinks.

You are right.

But what about the failing Pulp and Paper/Lumber industry? It is very much apart of Ontario with no 350 million dollar forgivable or 0% interest loans in sight.

Auto workers are buying work boots and lunch kits to go to work, much like Paper makers. But the guys working cutting the trees are buying $500000 machines, $50000 trucks and thousands of dollars in fuel tax, licenses, and work permits.

Our local Paper Mill (as many others) has 3 Green Power Hydroelectric dams, and is building a Biomass Boiler, for more "Green Power"

The only problem is Paper/Lumber industry is in less populated Nothern Ontario, lower voters paying the same taxes. The CDN dollar and Energy costs have affected way more than 2600 employees